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Langway/Walter trade

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Old
10-05-2008, 11:31 AM
  #1
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Langway/Walter trade

Who got the best of this trade? Washington gained most talent but Montreal won a cup with Walter and Green

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10-05-2008, 11:48 AM
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Washington had a huge edge in the first 3 or 4 years after the trade since they got 4 regulars and Green was often injured for the Habs, but between 86 and 90, the trade looked really good for the Habs. But overall, I'd say the Caps had the edge.

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10-05-2008, 12:01 PM
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Washington won this trade.

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10-05-2008, 12:36 PM
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WSH. This said, Walter and Green all became great ... depth players for the Habs, if that makes sense.

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10-05-2008, 01:38 PM
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Langway was the franchise savior in Washington and helped anchor the Capitals to the playoffs once he got there..

Walter and Green were depth players on a very good Montreal team once Lafleur retired. Smith, Naslund, Green, Dahlen, Nilan, Walter, Chelios, Roy and Lemiuex were part of the youth movement from 84 and so on...Won the Cup in 86.

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10-05-2008, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashMan View Post
Langway was the franchise savior in Washington and helped anchor the Capitals to the playoffs once he got there..

Walter and Green were depth players on a very good Montreal team once Lafleur retired. Smith, Naslund, Green, Dahlen, Nilan, Walter, Chelios, Roy and Lemiuex were part of the youth movement from 84 and so on...Won the Cup in 86.
Green was probably the best defensive d-man for the Habs between 86 and 90. Yes, he was better defensively, at the time, than Robinson or Chelios.

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10-05-2008, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Green was probably the best defensive d-man for the Habs between 86 and 90. Yes, he was better defensively, at the time, than Robinson or Chelios.
Over Robinson by that time? Maybe. Chelios? No. From 87 forward, Chelios was just one of the best defensive Dmen in the NHL.

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10-05-2008, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Over Robinson by that time? Maybe. Chelios? No. From 87 forward, Chelios was just one of the best defensive Dmen in the NHL.
Robinson was still very good, but defensively, Green was better at that point. Chelios was a great all-round d-man, but his defensive game wasn't as good as Green. Now, if he had just settled down and played a defense first game, than yes Chelios could probably have played better defense than Green, but game in, game out, Green was better defensively. Chelios elevated his defensive game to amongst the best defensive d-men in the NHl, without sacrificing offense only once he joined the Hawks.

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10-05-2008, 03:25 PM
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Washington wins this one. Langway is the only Hall of Famer amongst them. He won the Norris twice in a row. Hard to argue that. He also lowered the Caps GAA by a significant margin and ended up being the runner up for the Hart Trophy to Gretzky (even though nobody was winning it those days over #99

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10-05-2008, 06:14 PM
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Caps took this one.They got the best player, and Engblom was as good as Green.Green was also fragile and spent long stretches of his Hab days on the DL.

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10-05-2008, 06:31 PM
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washington by miles

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10-05-2008, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Robinson was still very good, but defensively, Green was better at that point. Chelios was a great all-round d-man, but his defensive game wasn't as good as Green. Now, if he had just settled down and played a defense first game, than yes Chelios could probably have played better defense than Green, but game in, game out, Green was better defensively. Chelios elevated his defensive game to amongst the best defensive d-men in the NHl, without sacrificing offense only once he joined the Hawks.
Chelios did win a Norris trophy with the Habs in 1989.

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10-05-2008, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
Chelios did win a Norris trophy with the Habs in 1989.
He won for all round ability, not for being a great defensive defenseman. He was great defensively, but IMO not as good defensively as he would become in Chicago, and IMO not the best defensive d-man on the Habs. Chelios was great on the Habs, but IMO his Norris years in Chicago were better than his 1989 Norris year. In 1989 he was a bit lucky Bourque and Coffey missed alot of games.

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10-05-2008, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
He won for all round ability, not for being a great defensive defenseman. He was great defensively, but IMO not as good defensively as he would become in Chicago, and IMO not the best defensive d-man on the Habs. Chelios was great on the Habs, but IMO his Norris years in Chicago were better than his 1989 Norris year. In 1989 he was a bit lucky Bourque and Coffey missed alot of games.
No argument about Bourque but Coffey played in 75 games that year. Of course, that year Coffey had 40 more points than Chelios. Chelios however was a plus 35 compared to Coffey's minus 10.

Rick Green was a plus 19 that year, Larry Robinson a plus 23. I would argue that Chelios was the best Habs defensemen both offensively and defensively that year.

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10-05-2008, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
He won for all round ability, not for being a great defensive defenseman. He was great defensively, but IMO not as good defensively as he would become in Chicago, and IMO not the best defensive d-man on the Habs. Chelios was great on the Habs, but IMO his Norris years in Chicago were better than his 1989 Norris year. In 1989 he was a bit lucky Bourque and Coffey missed alot of games.
Bourque did, But Coffey played 73 games and scored 113 points. Regardless, Chelios was impressing me with his shutdown abilities before he went to Chicago.

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10-05-2008, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens Fan View Post
No argument about Bourque but Coffey played in 75 games that year. Of course, that year Coffey had 40 more points than Chelios. Chelios however was a plus 35 compared to Coffey's minus 10.

Rick Green was a plus 19 that year, Larry Robinson a plus 23. I would argue that Chelios was the best Habs defensemen both offensively and defensively that year.
I agree that Chelios was the best, but +/- is a horrible way to judge.

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10-05-2008, 11:21 PM
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The Caps won the deal because they got the best player in the trade. But the Habs weren't left empty handed here, Walter and Green were pretty solid players for a long time.

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10-06-2008, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Robinson was still very good, but defensively, Green was better at that point. Chelios was a great all-round d-man, but his defensive game wasn't as good as Green. Now, if he had just settled down and played a defense first game, than yes Chelios could probably have played better defense than Green, but game in, game out, Green was better defensively. Chelios elevated his defensive game to amongst the best defensive d-men in the NHl, without sacrificing offense only once he joined the Hawks.
I agree he was solid, and remember Montreal missing him when he was injured in 89-90, but Green was still their #5 defender, though - Chelios/Robinson/Svoboda/Ludwig were the top-4.

It's an interesting trade. Walter was a star at the time and aquired to be a front-line two-way center for the Habs (and he had a really good first year there with 75 points) but the trade for Bobby Smith a year later really relegated him to a peripheral role.

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10-06-2008, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Bourque did, But Coffey played 73 games and scored 113 points. Regardless, Chelios was impressing me with his shutdown abilities before he went to Chicago.
Mixed up Coffey years. It was 1987 and 1988 where he missed alot of time.

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10-06-2008, 06:17 AM
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I agree he was solid, and remember Montreal missing him when he was injured in 89-90, but Green was still their #5 defender, though - Chelios/Robinson/Svoboda/Ludwig were the top-4.

It's an interesting trade. Walter was a star at the time and aquired to be a front-line two-way center for the Habs (and he had a really good first year there with 75 points) but the trade for Bobby Smith a year later really relegated him to a peripheral role.
Chelios was the clear cut number 1 because he was an incredible all round force. Great defensively, offensively and nasty.

After that, they didn't really have 2-6 designations. I don't think, one stood out amongst that group. Robinson was still a good, solid player, but wasn't the player he was just 2 years prior to that when he was the Habs #1. Amongst the rest of the d-men there really wasn't a clear cut #2. They were all solid 2nd pairing types. Let's just say, they all brought something different, and the situation would dictate who's abilities would be required in a given situation.

Personally, I thought Ludwig and Green were the Habs two best shutdown guys. Yes Chelios could be a great shutdown guy as well, but at that point in time, it would have affected his numbers, and the Habs needed him to produce to win, so they relied more on the other guys for the shutdown roles. In terms of offense Ludwig and Green were at best 2 or 3 out of 10.

Let's just say I think Green and Ludwig were a 9/10 in the shutdown role that year. Chelios was an 8/10. The thing that separated Chelios from the pack was that he was also a 8 or 9 on offense and was every bit as nasty as Ludwig. That's why he won the Norris.

As an aside, I was suprised MacInnis didn't win it that year. I wanted Chelios to win, but I fully expected MacInnis to take it.

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10-06-2008, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
Chelios was the clear cut number 1 because he was an incredible all round force. Great defensively, offensively and nasty.

After that, they didn't really have 2-6 designations. I don't think, one stood out amongst that group. Robinson was still a good, solid player, but wasn't the player he was just 2 years prior to that when he was the Habs #1. Amongst the rest of the d-men there really wasn't a clear cut #2. They were all solid 2nd pairing types. Let's just say, they all brought something different, and the situation would dictate who's abilities would be required in a given situation.

Personally, I thought Ludwig and Green were the Habs two best shutdown guys. Yes Chelios could be a great shutdown guy as well, but at that point in time, it would have affected his numbers, and the Habs needed him to produce to win, so they relied more on the other guys for the shutdown roles. In terms of offense Ludwig and Green were at best 2 or 3 out of 10.

Let's just say I think Green and Ludwig were a 9/10 in the shutdown role that year. Chelios was an 8/10. The thing that separated Chelios from the pack was that he was also a 8 or 9 on offense and was every bit as nasty as Ludwig. That's why he won the Norris.

As an aside, I was suprised MacInnis didn't win it that year. I wanted Chelios to win, but I fully expected MacInnis to take it.
We can agree to disagree about who was what defensively in the 80's.

As for the bolded part......Really?
Chelios had 73 points and was rock solid defensively(We can at least agree that he was still stellar defensively, if not agree who was the best on his team.

Macinnis had 74 points, and was a notch below on the defensive side. A problem in Calgary was that voters were splitting votes for the Norris due to the teams terrific play on their end of the ice(McCrimmon and Suter were snagging the odd votes, which is nice since McCrimmon is criminally underrated). But even if you gave Al Mac all of their votes combined, he was still coming out behind Chelios.


Macinnis I often stand up for because many seem to think he was defensively inept back then, which is just not the case, but he also was not in the Chelios/Bourque league defensively. Best comparison I can think of for Macinnis is that he was around the same level defensively as Stevens before Stevens started playing stay at home hockey(Obviously, Macinnis did not have the physicality. I just mean on a scale of 1-10). Stevens was a bit more raw, and a chance taker in his early days, and it affected his defense visibly compared to his later years when he sacrificed his offense in order to become a Langway type.

Back then, on a 1/10 scale, Macinnis was a 7.5/10 Defensively, and I would say Chelios was a 9/10(We can disagree on this)

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10-06-2008, 10:40 AM
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We can agree to disagree about who was what defensively in the 80's.

As for the bolded part......Really?
Chelios had 73 points and was rock solid defensively(We can at least agree that he was still stellar defensively, if not agree who was the best on his team.

Macinnis had 74 points, and was a notch below on the defensive side. A problem in Calgary was that voters were splitting votes for the Norris due to the teams terrific play on their end of the ice(McCrimmon and Suter were snagging the odd votes, which is nice since McCrimmon is criminally underrated). But even if you gave Al Mac all of their votes combined, he was still coming out behind Chelios.


Macinnis I often stand up for because many seem to think he was defensively inept back then, which is just not the case, but he also was not in the Chelios/Bourque league defensively. Best comparison I can think of for Macinnis is that he was around the same level defensively as Stevens before Stevens started playing stay at home hockey(Obviously, Macinnis did not have the physicality. I just mean on a scale of 1-10). Stevens was a bit more raw, and a chance taker in his early days, and it affected his defense visibly compared to his later years when he sacrificed his offense in order to become a Langway type.

Back then, on a 1/10 scale, Macinnis was a 7.5/10 Defensively, and I would say Chelios was a 9/10(We can disagree on this)
I don't think I was clear enough.

I agree Chelios was better. But for some reason I thought the voters were going to give it to Macinnis. Chelios had some bad press at the time. I was pleasantly suprised the voters made the right choice

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10-06-2008, 10:45 AM
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I don't think I was clear enough.

I agree Chelios was better. But for some reason I thought the voters were going to give it to Macinnis. Chelios had some bad press at the time. I was pleasantly suprised the voters made the right choice
ahhhhh

gotcha

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10-06-2008, 05:36 PM
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Probably one of those rare trades that worked out about even, given each team's needs at the time it was made and the careers all the guys involved ended up enjoying.

Don't think ether the Habs or Caps regretted making the deal.

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10-06-2008, 05:47 PM
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Don't think ether the Habs or Caps regretted making the deal.
I'd imagine Montreal regretted the deal a fair bit.

'They won the Cup in 1986' doesn't change the fact that it ended up being a terrible deal for Montreal. They still win the Cup that year if they have Jarvis and Laughlin (Laughlin scored 75 points that year) instead of Walter up front, and if they have Langway and Engblom who were both better than Green on the blueline.

Detroit could trade Henrik Zetterberg for Steve Staois tomorrow and still end up winning the Cup in 2009. Doesn't mean that's suddenly a good deal if they do.

Essentially Montreal aquired two solid role players in exchange for three solid role players and a player who would be the best defender in the game for the next few years and was still a solid contributor for the Caps a decade later.

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