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Let the fire sale begin!!!!

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Old
02-26-2004, 04:30 PM
  #51
thome_26
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OH, and I forgot - With Miz's "what ifs" well, if they apply to the Oilers then they apply to every team in the NHL and in that case everybody has as many or more question marks for the future them the Oilers - so spare me.

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02-26-2004, 04:36 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by The Rage
The fact is, our CORE players are very young. A firesale regarding tyhe likes of Cross and Ferguson will fill our line-up with holes, but wouldn't bring anything back.
so what if that opens a bunch of holes? Fill them via UFA in the offseason.

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02-26-2004, 04:39 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rage
The fact is, our CORE players are very young. A firesale regarding tyhe likes of Cross and Ferguson will fill our line-up with holes, but wouldn't bring anything back. Firesales only work for teams that have veterans that teams would actually want. What Matts is proposing is ludicrous--trading away Oilers over 25. That's not even a firesale, that's lunacy.
I was in no way advocating a fire sale. I was simply pointing out that between the roster as it currently sits and the roster whenever there is hockey again, after this year, could have quite a turnover.

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02-26-2004, 04:54 PM
  #54
The Rage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speeds
so what if that opens a bunch of holes? Fill them via UFA in the offseason.
And those UFAs will be old too. I'm not saying we shouldn't get rid of Cross and so on, just that a normal firesale would not bring anything back, and Matts' vision of a wiresale would have a negative effect.

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02-26-2004, 04:55 PM
  #55
Master Lok
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Originally Posted by Tanko
How much better though ??Stanley cup contender??NO way.So lets look down the road and get better somehow for 2,3 years down the road.I want the Oiler's to win the cup and we are not headed there.
Oh this is rich. "Get better somehow"? That's a sound plan there. If we blow up the team and conduct a firesale, I can guarantee that we WON'T be better in 2,3 years later. Since so many posters have already told you that your plan won't work but you still believe you're right, I'm going to point out why.

Say we did conduct firesale.
Trade Smyth, Moreau and Smith for Vermette, Emery from Ottawa.
Trade Oates for pick. Trade Ulanov for pick. Trade for Cross for pick. Trade Salo for pick. Trade Pisani for pick. Trade Laraques for pick.

2004
Torres - York - Dvorak
Isbister - Stoll - Hemsky
Rita - Reasoner - Salmolainen
Chimera - horcoff - ?

Brewer - Staios
Semenov - Cross
Woywitka - Lynch
Bergeron

Conklin - Valiquette


That's pretty much a semi AHL Lineup there for 2004. And its not going to get better in 2005. Or 2006. Emery is still to young as a goalie. None of the picks would be able to make the lineup their first time out. Vermette would join Pouliot and Niiniimaki as potential top centres in 2005. As first year rookies. More players don't become actual stars and reach their peak performance until they're 26 and up. That's another EIGHT waiting for these guys drafted om 2003/2004 to develop from AHL, to NHL 3/4th liners, to 2nd liner, to 1st liner to bonafide 1st line Allstar quality. Assuming no serious injuries. no Contract squabbles. That everything pans out for them and they don't get into a car accident (Heatley), or lose confidence in their game (Lundmark), or lose their focus and intensity (Arnott) or ... or...

And lastly, take a good hard look at the powerhouse teams. Ottawa. Colorado. Detroit. New Jersey. How did they get there? It took much much more than a firesale to win. Detroit had years of good drafting (Yzerman) and bad drafting (Burr) and many years of losing before they became good - Detroit Dead Things. Ottawa's first three years were brutal. Quebec had to lose their team to another ownership in Colorado before they won. And New Jersey suffered many years of losing as the "Mickey Mouse" team named by Gretzky, before they became respectable. And when I say many years, I mean try 4-8 years. And there are many many teams who lose and lose and Never become a powerhouse (Hartford, Winnipeg-Phoenix, Washington, Chicago, etc.)

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Old
02-26-2004, 04:55 PM
  #56
The Rage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilerrick
I was in no way advocating a fire sale. I was simply pointing out that between the roster as it currently sits and the roster whenever there is hockey again, after this year, could have quite a turnover.
Sorry about that, the only point I was trying to make was about age, and how that fits into the overall argument. That whole post wasn't about arguing with you in particular.

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02-26-2004, 04:59 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rage
Sorry about that, the only point I was trying to make was about age, and how that fits into the overall argument. That whole post wasn't about arguing with you in particular.

This is interesting. If we miss a whole year of the NHL here will be the ages of selected forwards at the beginning of th '05/06 season:

Moreau 30
Smyth 29
Isbister 28
Pisani 28
Reasoner 28
Dvorak 28
York 27
Horcoff 27

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02-26-2004, 05:15 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by thome_26
This Tanko is one of those emotional, bandwagon jumpers who doesn't stop and think. One of the youngest teams in the NHL with a top five pool of prospects is not going to rebuild. Stop and think before flapping. Doomed to Mediocrity?? Because the core of our players aren't at their peek, and are a few years away? We have enough good young kids that have good potential to last us for a decade and a half. We need to add to and tinker with this group of guys, not unload and rebuild with a firesale. We have the great base for a future VERY deep team with skill. Just with guys who are really young and saying that we get NOTHING for anybody older on out team (which obviously isn't going to happen):

Torres-Niinimaki-Hemsky
Mikhnov-Pouliot-Salmelainen
Rita-Stoll-McDonald

Now sure, I'm sure half of them will not turn out to be top players, but we still have Dvorak, York, Smyth, Moreau, Chimera, Horcoff who will all be with the team or we will have gotten something for them. On the blueline:

Brewer-Semenov
Woywitka-Lynch
Greene-Bergeron

Then guys like Staios and Smith will still either A) be around and playing good hockey or will have been moved for assets. We are extremely deep as it is, and we have two firsts, two seconds coming up in this years draft so we will only make ground or get further ahead of teams in the NHL.

You make it sound like we have a dozen future hall of famers in the wings. I wouldn't call our base great or deep. Mihknov may or may not exist, Ninnimaki was a reach and I predict a bomb, Rita looks like he'll struggle to make this club. What we lack is any true blue-chip prospect. We have no one that looks like a future bona fide star and that includes Hemsky. If you want to contend for a cup you have to have a couple of elite forwards, A stud D-corp and a solid goalie. The only prospect we have that I'm sold on is JDD. THis club made a huge mistake not drafting Parise, not becasue he's so much better that Pouliot (That could swing either way), but becasue Parise seems to have the potential to be a blue chip, all-star. Lowe & company should have swung for the fences in the 2003 draft because we have no star quality in our org.

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02-26-2004, 05:20 PM
  #59
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DId you miss the part where I even said that half of the guys that I listed probably wouldn't turn out to be top players (by that I meant top sixs)????? If Hemsky doesn't have star potential and if Torres doesn't have Star potential then there are only 3-4 teams in the league with guys who do have star potential.

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02-26-2004, 06:00 PM
  #60
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Did you miss the part where I said elite, blue chip forward????????? Yeah some of our young guys and prospects look like they can be top two line, 20-25 goal, 50-60 point forwards, maybe. As I repeat you need elite palyers to compete for a cup year in - year out. Bertuzzi, Naslund, Forsberg, Hjeduk, Alfredsson, Havlat, Hossa, Redden, Brodeur, Pronger, Lidstrom, Nash, Kovalchuk, Heatley these are types of players every cup contender has. I don't see any of these type of impact players in our system and if our plan was to compete after the post CBA, shouldn't we?

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02-26-2004, 06:06 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speeds
If a guy could move Oates, Cross, Smith, Laraque, Salo, Ferguson, Ulanov, and Isbister by the deadline, it opens up ~12.5 mil in salary. Some is gonna have to go to the guys you get back in trades, etc, but it leaves an awful lot of money around if you see a UFA C you like
Yeah I'm with ya speeds - maybe I keep Izzy if he signs a deal like Moreau's and takes less dollars for contract years and security. Cross and Ulanov are no big deal because they are vets and make relative chump change.

Oates is gone for sure - he's just past it but did teach our young centers a thing or 2 about faceoffs

Salo is surely history and that opens up a giant piece of salary space. With the market for veteran goalies being so bad - I have no problem waiting until the new CBA is completed to fix this issue - goalie values will just keep on going down.

Smith is a tough one - but I think Cross and Ulanov can fill most of his contribution - and combined they would make way less than what he will get in an arb settlement. His value will also be very high at the deadline - so he's gone in my books.

Laraque - he's gold for the last 20 games of the regular season and playoffs - garbage the rest of the time. Deal him now if the value is there.

Ferguson - who cares

So that's what I would do:

trade Smith at the deadline for maximum value and to free up more salary room
trade Salo at the deadline (if possible) or just decline his option this summer
trade Laraque at the deadline for maximum value
decline making Ferguson an offer and let him walk
sign Izzy to less dollars or trade him at the draft

This way we go into the CBA with no one making more than Smyth's relatively small salary. We will have A TON of spending room (maybe 7-10 million) to get a #1 center and a goalie and lots of cheap attractive bargaining chips for trades. There is a reason why Lowe has not made any trades in goal or at center or just tried cheap short-term fixes (like Oates/Dopita). The new CBA is going to change the NHL and having "cap room" will determine whether you can sign anyone. Making trades to simply obtain "cap room" will become common (see Washington right now). If this system comes into play - the Oilers are VERY well positioned to pick up the 1 or 2 elite players we need becuase we will have the cap room and some very attractive players to trade (young, cheap, pretty talented).

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02-26-2004, 06:07 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy
Did you miss the part where I said elite, blue chip forward????????? Yeah some of our young guys and prospects look like they can be top two line, 20-25 goal, 50-60 point forwards, maybe. As I repeat you need elite palyers to compete for a cup year in - year out. Bertuzzi, Naslund, Forsberg, Hjeduk, Alfredsson, Havlat, Hossa, Redden, Brodeur, Pronger, Lidstrom, Nash, Kovalchuk, Heatley these are types of players every cup contender has. I don't see any of these type of impact players in our system and if our plan was to compete after the post CBA, shouldn't we?
Half the teams that had those guys didn't know that they had bluchippers 2 or 3 years before they were in the NHL.

I mean forsberg was a small piece in a big deal.
Naslund and Bertuzzi had several average years before exploding.
Alfredsson collected less than a point per game in the weak swedish elite league before exploding for 61 points as a rookie.
Lidstrom got more points in his first NHL season than he did in his 3 years in the swedish elite league.

Sometimes you don't see these guys until they come into camp and grab you by the pucks...

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02-26-2004, 07:00 PM
  #63
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dawgbone,

All the more reason for Lowe to take a chance in a trade on a guy such as, say, Branko Radivojevic

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02-26-2004, 07:05 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
dawgbone,

All the more reason for Lowe to take a chance in a trade on a guy such as, say, Branko Radivojevic
But how do we know we don't have those guys in our system right now? If Alfreddson can explode like that in his rookie season, who's to say Pouliot or Niinimaki won't? What if Mikhnov comes over and turns out to be better than expected? Trying to judge prospects before seeing them in the NHL is such a crapshoot.. I am a fan of Radivojevic though..

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02-26-2004, 07:07 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizral
dawgbone,

All the more reason for Lowe to take a chance in a trade on a guy such as, say, Branko Radivojevic
Dear God, not Branko....why dont we just put a package deal together for Arron Asham.

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02-26-2004, 07:33 PM
  #66
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Kyle Brodziak may surprise us all.

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Old
02-26-2004, 07:53 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC Trojans
I think one person is all we need to get this team back on track...and that is a legitimate 1st line center. Only he can bring balance back to the force. We don't need some huge firesale or change all our players, we just need someone to step up and claim a spot on the top line and everything will be back to normal, and we won't be having a Smyth - Horcoff - Pisani line as our top line anymore.

Smyth _____ Hemsky
Torres York Dvorak
Moreau Stoll Pisani
Isbister Oates Laraque

Doesn't that look much better than we have now?

If we can get a good, somewhat young center (like Lecavalier, Marleau, Gomez, Rolston, Bonk), I'd be willing to give up some of our future. Our future is so bright I think we can now afford to send some of them away in order for us to remain competitive for the next two to three years.
I agree that a fire sale is totally off the mark. But we need more than a #1 center
We badly need consistent goaltending and desperately need a puck carrying dman
(and two players who can quarterback the powerplay squads.)
I would also add a change of coach with MacT dropped to assistant coach the pk.
Our future is bright, but to go anywhere in the playoffs, it isn't going to happen unless we find the missing pieces.

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02-26-2004, 08:32 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by OilersRRRock/Kim
I agree that a fire sale is totally off the mark. But we need more than a #1 center
We badly need consistent goaltending and desperately need a puck carrying dman
(and two players who can quarterback the powerplay squads.)
I would also add a change of coach with MacT dropped to assistant coach the pk.
Our future is bright, but to go anywhere in the playoffs, it isn't going to happen unless we find the missing pieces.
A goalie isn't hard to get. And Bergeron has looked good the last couple of games. The hard part is the centreman. Anyone else think that Hemskey, with his skill set, might be the answer? I think Dawgbone was the who proposed that idea. Sounds interesting to me, to say the least.


Last edited by The Rage: 02-26-2004 at 09:30 PM.
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02-26-2004, 09:40 PM
  #69
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All we really need is fantastic goaltending you'd be suprised at all the weaknesses that can cover up if Montreal, Calgary, or Nashville had Salo in net instead of Theodore, Kiprusoff, or Vokoun respectively do you honestly think any of them would be in the playoffs? not a chance, I like Salo and all and wish him the best to whatever team gives him a shot but his consistency for a no.1 goalie just has not been where it needs to be and we all know it.

A #1 center would be nice but it's not neccesary York can fill that role, a good #2 center would suffice in actuality, to all that think we need a "superstar" center to be successful, tell me where the Devils superstar center was when the won the cup last year, ya I'd take York over Gomez. We have two center prospect who should be very close to ready after the CBA(Niinimaki in particular) I think we can promote from within, possibly give Jarret Stoll the second line job for just a year to fill the gap, he is capable of doing what Marchant did for the Hemsky-Smyth line (in playing defensively accountable hockey with a little offensive punch), 40+ points is not far fetched for Jarret has good hands and did not look at all out of place playing with Dvorak and Torres.

Now PP QB is something I am not so sure if this can be fixed with what we have I'd like Bergeron and Lynch to get a shot at the job (playing 4 forwards 1 defense man system) but am not sure either is really capable. I think we have to adress pp-qb at the draft or through trade and goaltending has to be done through trade in the off-season even the most optimistic scenario will not have Deslaurier ready in time without damaging his development.


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02-26-2004, 09:42 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rage
A goalie isn't hard to get. And Bergeron has looked good the last couple of games. The hard part is the centreman. Anyone else think that Hemskey, with his skill set, might be the answer?
are you saying, "trade Hemsky for a centreman? or turn Hemsky into a centreman?"

I would prefer the latter. Hemsky has the talent to be a decent centre.

Tanko: I understand your are frustrated. what Oiler fan isn't? but firesale? the firesale is OVER! in the past year we have traded away or lost 4 key players in Comrie, Carter, Niinimaa and Marchant. we need to retain the few remaining leaders we have.

we have leaders, we have scorers, we have good defenseman and we have a good goalie (Conklin).

what we don't have: MOTIVATION AND A GOOD COACH

I want a coach who gets the players motivated and gets angry when we lose a game. MacT must go. Leaderships starts at the top.

Hey Scotty Bowman needs a job just kidding.

Would Rob Daum consider coaching the Oilers if they offered him the job? He's done everything at the University level, why not move on to something bigger?

just a thought.

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02-26-2004, 10:52 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Joe Oilfan
are you saying, "trade Hemsky for a centreman? or turn Hemsky into a centreman?"

I would prefer the latter. Hemsky has the talent to be a decent centre.
I think he can be a good centre, that's what I was saying. His skill set seems more suited to centre than wing.

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02-26-2004, 11:18 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Oilfan
we have leaders, we have scorers, we have good defenseman and we have a good goalie (Conklin).

what we don't have: MOTIVATION AND A GOOD COACH

I want a coach who gets the players motivated and gets angry when we lose a game. MacT must go. Leaderships starts at the top.
We don't have scorers... at least not to the extent that is required to have a successful NHL team. Our defense is covered in castaways, who have managed to gel into a solid, yet unspectacular unit.

Conklin is an alright goaltender, a capable backup, but that's about it. Has he performed much better than Salo... it's debatable. 8 of his 11 wins have come against teams below .500, and his record against above .500 teams is 3-10-1. That isn't good goaltending.

One question for everyone... how on earth do you know how motivating Mac-T is? This completely baffles me, and I don't understand how you can come to this conclusion if you aren't on or near the team.

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02-26-2004, 11:35 PM
  #73
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Kyle Brodziak may surprise us all.

comrie redux ...

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02-26-2004, 11:42 PM
  #74
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I really wish I had the same confidence in our future as you guys.I don't see our future talent pool as overwhelming like you all seem to.So I think we need to add to this pool.Firesale probably is a bit harsh a term and when I say change directions somehow it's because I don't like our direction and don't have the answers. In all reality we are miles from a cup .I'm certainly not a bandwagon jumper who doesn't think I've been an Oiler fan for 20 years .We seem directionless to me and I don't like it.

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02-26-2004, 11:43 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Tanko
Stick a fork in us everyone must go.Keep RSmyth and Staios and anyone under 25 and sell the farm we are going no where with this group of mediocrity.Time to face facts
People over 25? Not too many players over 25 in Edmonton. You guys are one of the youngest teams in the NHL, and you guys have a bright future. I envy you. My Canucks have a bright short term future, but once guys like Naslund and Bertuzzi are gone, we won't have much to show for ourselves. The Sedins should be good players by then, but we don't have much scoring help in the organization, so count yourselves lucky.

But I am sad that you guys will probably miss the playoffs. I'm an Oiler fan (though primarily a Canuck fan) and I love to watch your team play. Best of luck to you guys.

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