I've got to agree with ELab when he says there's no way we're moving JVR unless it's for someone like Burns, Bouwmeester, etc....With that being said, I think the best thing the Flyers can do is just leave things the way they are and see how things shake out.
As well, people need to realize that there aren't any number 3 defensemen out there that have a relative good and reasonable contract that can be acquired for cheap. Just not happening. Besides, we've got two guys on the roster that have played in over 300 NHL games (Timonen, Vannanen), 1 guy who is near 200 games (Eminger), 1 guy who played a full season and made a huge jump (Coburn), a reliable shot blocker in Kukkonen and a rookie who played his way into the top six. The good thing about all six guys listed as that they are mobile and we've got a very good hitter in Vannanen.
The D is not that bad. Actually, as odd as it sounds, I feel more comfortable behind this defense than I would if we still had Hatcher and Smith.
I am sorry but if we traded JVR for a Burns or J-bo, Consider me extremely pissed. that would be a major rip off. I'd trade JVR to nobody at ALL! Unless it was more of a Backstrom, or if you're looking at D, Phaneuf, or Doughty.
I am sorry but if we traded JVR for a Burns or J-bo, Consider me extremely pissed. that would be a major rip off. I'd trade JVR to nobody at ALL! Unless it was more of a Backstrom, or if you're looking at D, Phaneuf, or Doughty.
JVR is an unproven commodity. You wouldn't do it for J-Bo or Burns but you would for Doughty? so two of the three best young dmen in the league or a guy who was just drafted and has proven nothing.
you highly overrate prospects, same thing as taking Voracek if you could have any three players in the league within those qualifications
JVR is an unproven commodity. You wouldn't do it for J-Bo or Burns but you would for Doughty? so two of the three best young dmen in the league or a guy who was just drafted and has proven nothing.
you highly overrate prospects, same thing as taking Voracek if you could have any three players in the league within those qualifications
Question me all you want. Voracek did not disappoint tonight in case you weren't paying attention. Burns plays on a team that is already defensively sound, and J-bo isn't a good read because for 1 I have never been impressed, but maybe it is because he plays with Florida.
Technically trading Jvr (Unproven) for other top Prospects who are Unproven like you say make sense, although sideways moves at best. Do not doubt the Pope son.
Technically trading Jvr (Unproven) for other top Prospects who are Unproven like you say make sense, although sideways moves at best. Do not doubt the Pope son.
What the hell does that mean?
Ok so it's a sideways move, I can agree with that. But your saying you wouldn't make a step up but you take a step sideways. That's retarded. You think Burns is good because he plays in a good defensive system? Your not impressed with Bouwmeester? Voracek was good in his debut and that makes him proven?
Maybe you ought to get back wearing your red Prada loafers and praying because you aren't doing to well with the whole hockey talk thing
Ok so it's a sideways move, I can agree with that. But your saying you wouldn't make a step up but you take a step sideways. That's retarded. You think Burns is good because he plays in a good defensive system? Your not impressed with Bouwmeester? Voracek was good in his debut and that makes him proven?
Maybe you ought to get back wearing your red Prada loafers and praying because you aren't doing to well with the whole hockey talk thing
No I did not say Voracek was proven. It was his first game. All I said was he did not disappoint, meaning, he played the way I expected him to, of course he wont do it every night because no player is completely amazing every night. Burns IS good, however like I said, he already plays in a good system.
Let me cut to the chase. The only way I trade one of the top prospects in hockey for Bouwmeester or Burns, is if I am the Lightning, and I have JVR. We are not that hard up for D, and we have guys like Nodl, Maroon, Giroux I'd rather move than JVR.
I am curious as to why you have been all over my case since I picked Voracek as my top 3. I am not a GM of an actual NHL team, you know, you can relax a little bit.
I am sorry but if we traded JVR for a Burns or J-bo, Consider me extremely pissed. that would be a major rip off. I'd trade JVR to nobody at ALL! Unless it was more of a Backstrom, or if you're looking at D, Phaneuf, or Doughty.
The thing is, JVR will need a top six role here in order to justify his draft status. There's no way the Flyers drafted JVR to play in a top nine role. He needs top six, period. The way things look right now, with Gagne, Briere, Richards, and Carter, those are our top four. Add Lupul to the mix is five. Then, is it Hartnell, is it JVR, is it Giroux, is it Nodl, is it Downie, is it Upshall, etc.....and that makes the mix that much more muckier so to speak.
Honestly, I don't think we'll ever see JVR in a Flyers uniform. I do think he'll be used as trade bait to either land another top notch defenseman or to move up in the 09 draft. He's one of the more marketable assets the franchise has and his rights can really go a long way in securing a top 2/3 defender. Right now though, the issue that needs to be addressed is the salary cap and that's why I don't think JVR is moved........yet.
I see no chance of the Flyers parting with a player of JVR's size and skill level.
Their depth allows them to bring him along at pace that is conducive to his success. And there is no rush for JVR to be a top six forward right away. I think he will be, but there's nothing wrong with him starting on the third line and then working his way up to the first.
It's also far more likely that the Flyers would move other players around to accommodate JVR than vice-versa.
we only have about 700k in cap space as it sits right now. We will most likely have to deal salary to get anything decent in return. I think this might just force them to do something they didn't want to have to do and that's move Knuble. Personally I'd keep Mike, split Timonen and Coburn as someone here stated (I actually raised this possibility earlier this summer and nobody seemed in favor of it) and play Sbisa and Kukkonen on the 3rd pairing. If Sbisa doesn't play lights out in the first 9 games (and most likely he won't) then send him back to juniors and call up either Ratchuk or Guenin. The roster needs to be kept as thin as possible with us being so colse to the limit so we can't keep back-ups or reserves on the active roster.
700K? I thought we had at least 2M not to mention Parent and Jones will be on IR which adds another 2.5 (give or take 300K). Parent already is.
I didnt have Sbisa in there. With Sbisa and Ross up and Aubin down we have around 1.5, thats with Parent on the IR. When he gets back wed have only .7
Well but you have Downie there so no reason to add Ross. You are right I forgot about Sbisa and whatever he makes $850? but Jones is still there and his 2.75M.
I do not expect you to update that list on daily basis.
There was an article in the paper earlier this week that had Aubin and Sbisa on the roster and it listed us as having some 700k in cap space available (that was also with Jones, Parent and Downie on the roster). The only real changes would be Aubins salary coming off the books and us eventually getting credit for Parent. Jones hasn't been added to the LTIR list yet so we don't get credit for his salary relief yet. Also, Downie isn't going to be listed on LTIR so we won't get any injury relief for him. I know this is differnt than what is being posted here so please don't shoot the messanger.
Here is the portion of this link that is relevent to our cap, it's at the bottom of the page on the link:
"Early last night, the Flyers submitted a 22-player roster to the NHL that included 12 forwards, seven defensemen and three goalies. Teams can submit up to 23 players.
The club will start the season with three goalies because it wants to make sure that backup Antero Niittymaki is fully recovered from hip surgery. Niittymaki, playing for the Phantoms, was sharp and stopped 28 shots in Tuesday's win over the Flyers at the Spectrum.
Holmgren said that goalie Jean-Sebastien Aubin was on the roster as a precaution, and that the club did not want to risk losing him if he didn't pass through waivers.
"We're not prepared to do that now," he said. "We may do it in the future."
The Flyers' roster looks like this:
Goalies: Aubin, Niittymaki and Marty Biron.
Forwards: Arron Asham, Danny Briere, Jeff Carter, Riley Cote, Steve Downie, Simon Gagne, Scott Hartnell, Mike Knuble, Joffrey Lupul, Glen Metropolit, Mike Richards and Scottie Upshall.
Defensemen: Sbisa, Braydon Coburn, Steve Eminger, Randy Jones, Lasse Kukkonen, Kimmo Timonen and Ossi Vaananen.
Breakaways
Downie, the fourth-line center, who is recovering from a knee injury, skated yesterday, and the Flyers are hopeful that he can play in Saturday's opener against the visiting New York Rangers. If Downie can't play, the Flyers will likely recall Darroll Powe from the Phantoms. . . . With Sbisa's $875,000 salary, the Flyers' payroll is about $56 million. The cap is $56.7 million. . . . No date has been set for Parent's surgery. "We're trying to get it scheduled as soon as possible," Holmgren said.
- Sam Carchidi"
Well but you have Downie there so no reason to add Ross. You are right I forgot about Sbisa and whatever he makes $850? but Jones is still there and his 2.75M.
I do not expect you to update that list on daily basis.
Yeah but Jones and Downie arent on the IR.
And Phlocky, we have around 700k but if Parent has been put on LTIR then until he gets back we have around 1,5
I'm not too worried about JVR. I think once he makes the roster, he'll be a better player then Lupul and Hartnell. I can't imagine LA being willing to part with Jack Johnson, and while I don't want to give up any of our good young prospects, your going to have to at some point. There just isn't room for all of them.
And Phlocky, we have around 700k but if Parent has been put on LTIR then until he gets back we have around 1,5
Yeah, and from that earlier article we get ot subtract Aubins salary but have to add in Ross so that's a wash. HC, if you were to add Aubin and Sbisa to your team list and account for any and all bonuses then you'd probably be at around 700k too. I don't know what bonuses were earned last year and which ones we took against this years caps so that might be where some of the confusion comes into play too. Also, I think both Rathje and Hatcher have to count against the cap for like 1 day putting them at a cost of around 75k towards the cap limit (actually I think they count 100% against the cap limit but we are permitted to exceed the cap because they are on LTIR though we don't get to exceed it by 100% of their salary, only like 98% of it or something weird).
Any way you cut it though it's about a wash from Aubin to Ross and counting only one of Sbisa or Parent (Parent on LTIR and Sbisa not being here once he gets back) would move us from about 700k left to about 1.5 mil remaining. If we trade for a dman we can figure on removing Sbisas cap hit in place of the guy we trade to get making the maximum we can expect to take on at about 2.3 mil. Once Parent returns we would be over the cap limit if we kept 8 dmen but that won't likely happen. What would most likely happen would be that either Parnt finishes the year in the minors or we waive Kukkonen (an UFA at the end of the season with about the same cap hit as Parent and Sbisa). If Kukks is claimed then it's no big deal, we aren't going to resign him after this year anyways and if he isn't he'll just be sent to the Phantoms and we will be ok with the cap. Now, even though we could theoretically go up to 2.3 mil in salary for another dman there is no way we take ourselves that close the othe cap limit. We will most likely try to leave ourselves around 500k at a min for those temorary call-ups for when guys are sick or just have a minor ding and don't go on IR.
If we are going to bring in a solid dman with a salary exceeding 2 mil (probably the min we'd have to spend to get anything decent that would actually be a help to our defense) we'd probably have to move a forward and replace him with a cheap entry level salary from one of the guys currently on the Phantoms. Upshall would get us about 400k in additional cap space, Downie wouldn't clear any additional cap space and Knuble would free up about and additional 2 mil in cap space. Moving Knuble we could probably afford to take on about 3.5-4 mil in salary for this year and next year. The player we pick up can't have a contract that goes beyond next season as we will need that cap room ro re-sign Coburn.
Just some things to keep in mind when you make trades in your head of what you'd do if you were in Homers shoes.
I see no chance of the Flyers parting with a player of JVR's size and skill level.
Their depth allows them to bring him along at pace that is conducive to his success. And there is no rush for JVR to be a top six forward right away. I think he will be, but there's nothing wrong with him starting on the third line and then working his way up to the first.
It's also far more likely that the Flyers would move other players around to accommodate JVR than vice-versa.
I guess that's where we differ. If you take a look at the forwards drafted after JVR (Voracek, Gagner, Turris, Perron, etc....) they all have top six roles with their clubs. Granted, they fell into the roles because of a lack of depth in some cases, but none the less, they have top six roles. If JVR doesn't start with a top six role in Philadelphia, you can bet that people will scream and will want blood. You don't draft someone 2nd overall just to have them play third line minutes. You're drafting them that high because you expect them to make an impact ASAP.
That's the biggest reason why I think the Flyers will move JVR - there's no top six spot for him. Plus, if trading JVR in a package lands us someone like a Brent Burns or a Dan Hamhuis or a Ryan Suter, then the team becomes exceptionally better as a result. The top four would be set with Timonen / Coburn / Trade Acquisition / Parent. That would leave Eminger, Vannanen, and Jones battle out for the last two spots. To me, anyways, this kind of deal makes all the sense in the world.
I guess that's where we differ. If you take a look at the forwards drafted after JVR (Voracek, Gagner, Turris, Perron, etc....) they all have top six roles with their clubs. Granted, they fell into the roles because of a lack of depth in some cases, but none the less, they have top six roles. If JVR doesn't start with a top six role in Philadelphia, you can bet that people will scream and will want blood. You don't draft someone 2nd overall just to have them play third line minutes. You're drafting them that high because you expect them to make an impact ASAP.
That's the biggest reason why I think the Flyers will move JVR - there's no top six spot for him. Plus, if trading JVR in a package lands us someone like a Brent Burns or a Dan Hamhuis or a Ryan Suter, then the team becomes exceptionally better as a result. The top four would be set with Timonen / Coburn / Trade Acquisition / Parent. That would leave Eminger, Vannanen, and Jones battle out for the last two spots. To me, anyways, this kind of deal makes all the sense in the world.
JVR is not in the NHL because he wanted to go to school, and the Flyers are in a position to wait for him because of their depth. There is no hurry.
Nobody will scream about JVR not playing 20 minutes a game next season. Again, the Flyers depth will come into play. Few people will be shocked if JVR isn't on the top line. He's capable, but he's going to be surrounded by veterans that are as good or better than him. That's not a knock on anyone. I also doubt that the Flyers planned on JVR making an immediate impact right after drafting him. I'm sure someone can dig up some quotes of the Flyers saying that he'd take some time.
Like I said, if they need to, they'll move players around to accomodate him. He's a potential franchise forward. Plus, they can afford to bring him along slowly without throwing him directly into the fire. And they're not going to trade their Jack Johnson for someone else's Tim Gleason. They have no reason whatsoever to make a trade like that.
JVR is not in the NHL because he wanted to go to school, and the Flyers are in a position to wait for him because of their depth. There is no hurry.
There's a little more to the story than that. The Flyers wanted JVR to sign after his freshman year. When his parents came had a meeting with Holmgren, they wanted to know what Holmgren's plans were with JVR and if he'd play in the NHL right away. When Holmgren stated he couldn't guarantee that JVR would be in the NHL right away and that he might have to spend time in the AHL, that's when he and his parents decided to go back to school. I know that at the night of the draft, JVR's parents informed Holmgren that he was going to go to school for two years. However, his peers were ready and they left early. Even guys his age were breaking into the league. So, don't think that didn't play on his mind. I'll say it right now - when Holmgren mentioned that JVR might have to spend time in the AHL, that made it much more easier for VanRiemdyk's to turn down the Flyers offers and return to school.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blah
Nobody will scream about JVR not playing 20 minutes a game next season. Again, the Flyers depth will come into play. Few people will be shocked if JVR isn't on the top line. He's capable, but he's going to be surrounded by veterans that are as good or better than him. That's not a knock on anyone. I also doubt that the Flyers planned on JVR making an immediate impact right after drafting him. I'm sure someone can dig up some quotes of the Flyers saying that he'd take some time.
I beg to differ. I think quite a few people will voice concerns and discontent if the 2nd overall pick isn't given top six ice time right away, especially when all his forward peers from the same draft are getting that kind of ice time. Let's remember that IF (key word here - he could always pull a Blake Wheeler) VanRiemsdyk signs, he's going to be compared to the guys who have already been playing - Kane, Turris, Gagner, Voracek, Perron, etc...... I have to believe that the Flyers are going to want to justify his high selection and they aren't going to give him '3rd line' (notice the quotes) minutes and that they'll want to provide him with as much as time as possible. To spoonfeed him ice time will do nothing but backfire and the bust chants will be louder in there than at a Dolly Parton concert.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blah
Like I said, if they need to, they'll move players around to accomodate him. He's a potential franchise forward. Plus, they can afford to bring him along slowly without throwing him directly into the fire. And they're not going to trade their Jack Johnson for someone else's Tim Gleason. They have no reason whatsoever to make a trade like that.
See, I don't get the impression that they will. Look at how long it took for Gagne to get a top line spot in Philadelphia. I know others will say that he played on the most important line when Hitchcock was coach, but come on, the third line in Hitchcock's system isn't as important as the first line. If that's the case, then Guy Carbonneau was a more important player in Hitch's system than Mike Modano was. However, I digress.
The whole bringing him along slowly is nothing more than a cop out. And before anyone points out that Boston brought Thornton along slowly, let's also remember that Thornton was an 18 year old, JVR will be a 20 year old when he starts. Big difference.
I'll say it before and I'll say it again - He won't even see the ice as a Flyer. He'll be moved either at the trade deadline or at the draft. The forwards are pretty much set and he's probably the best bargaining chip that the Flyers have in terms of landing yet another solid, young and dynamic defenseman to add. And one last thing. I wouldn't call a Brent Burns or a Ryan Suter or a Dan Hamhuis 'someone else's Tim Gleason'. Those are three excellent, excellent, excellent defensemen. While Gleason isn't a bad defenseman, I would have to say (as would many others) that he's nowhere near the defenseman that those guys listed are.
And Phlocky, we have around 700k but if Parent has been put on LTIR then until he gets back we have around 1,5
So 1.5 not including Jones (soon to be on LTIR) minus Sbisa contract? Still about 3.5M in cap assuming Downie comes back sometime next week. Right, wrong?
Sorry to troll on your board, but the Flyers are my second favorite team so I try to follow your team on Direct TV. A trade that might work for Fla and Phili is Knuble for Skarstins, when he gets healthy, plus the N0. 4 pick in 2010 that Fla got from Toronto. They are both on the last year of their contracts, which pay roughly comparable dollars ($2.8 million vs. $2.4). You have too many top 6 forwards. The Panthers have too many No. 4 D-men. Seems to make sense for both clubs.
Sorry to troll on your board, but the Flyers are my second favorite team so I try to follow your team on Direct TV. A trade that might work for Fla and Phili is Knuble for Skarstins, when he gets healthy, plus the N0. 4 pick in 2010 that Fla got from Toronto. They are both on the last year of their contracts, which pay roughly comparable dollars ($2.8 million vs. $2.4). You have too many top 6 forwards. The Panthers have too many No. 4 D-men. Seems to make sense for both clubs.
It could make sense - but a word of warning: Knuble is not a top 6 forward.
Sorry to troll on your board, but the Flyers are my second favorite team so I try to follow your team on Direct TV. A trade that might work for Fla and Phili is Knuble for Skarstins, when he gets healthy, plus the N0. 4 pick in 2010 that Fla got from Toronto. They are both on the last year of their contracts, which pay roughly comparable dollars ($2.8 million vs. $2.4). You have too many top 6 forwards. The Panthers have too many No. 4 D-men. Seems to make sense for both clubs.
Knuble is a complete waste of a roster space 5 on 5.
hes ok on the PP.
