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Dale Hawerchuk or Marcel Dionne?

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Old
10-08-2008, 03:14 PM
  #1
Al Bundy*
 
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Dale Hawerchuk or Marcel Dionne?

Both are HHOF members who never won a Stanley Cup, but were regarded among the league's elite in their better years.

Who was the better player?

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10-08-2008, 03:33 PM
  #2
lextune
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For me; Hawerchuk. But it's close.

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10-08-2008, 04:11 PM
  #3
Dark Shadows
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Marcel Dionne.

Not very close at all.
Neither played for a great team.

Dionne:
Goals
1972-73 NHL 40 (9)
1974-75 NHL 47 (5)
1976-77 NHL 53 (3)
1978-79 NHL 59 (2)
1979-80 NHL 53 (4)
1980-81 NHL 58 (2)
1981-82 NHL 50 (8)
1982-83 NHL 56 (5)
1984-85 NHL 46 (10)
Career NHL 731 (4)

Assists
1973-74 NHL 54 (9)
1974-75 NHL 74 (4)
1976-77 NHL 69 (2)
1978-79 NHL 71 (3)
1979-80 NHL 84 (2)
1980-81 NHL 77 (3)
1981-82 NHL 67 (9)
1984-85 NHL 80 (3)
1986-87 NHL 56 (9)
Career NHL 1040 (9)

Points
1974-75 NHL 121 (3)
1976-77 NHL 122 (2)
1978-79 NHL 130 (2)
1979-80 NHL 137 (1)
1980-81 NHL 135 (2)
1981-82 NHL 117 (7)
1982-83 NHL 107 (5)
1984-85 NHL 126 (4)
Career NHL 1771 (5)

Honors
1976-77 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1978-79 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)
1979-80 NHL NHL All-Star Team (1st)
1980-81 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)

+ 2 Pearsons and several top 2-3 Hart finishes.

Even granted his very slight playoff advantage, Hawerchuk doesn't stack up.

Hawerchuk:

Goals
1984-85 NHL 53 (7)
1985-86 NHL 46 (10)
1986-87 NHL 47 (7)
Career NHL 518 (33)

Assists
1983-84 NHL 65 (8)
1984-85 NHL 77 (4)
1987-88 NHL 77 (4)
1991-92 NHL 75 (5)
1992-93 NHL 80 (6)
Career NHL 891 (19)

Points
1984-85 NHL 130 (3)
1985-86 NHL 105 (9)
1986-87 NHL 100 (7)
1987-88 NHL 121 (4)
Career NHL 1409 (17)

Honors
1984-85 NHL NHL All-Star Team (2nd)

and a single Hart Runner up.

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Old
10-08-2008, 04:20 PM
  #4
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Dionne is above the Hawerchuck, Savard, Stastny, Perrault class. He's a top 20 forward regardless of his spotty playoff record. You don't win 2 pearson trophies and 8 top 10s if you are not great.

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10-08-2008, 04:30 PM
  #5
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Dionne by 7 or 8 miles. I like Hawerchuk but come on....

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10-08-2008, 06:01 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Dionne is above the Hawerchuck, Savard, Stastny, Perrault class. He's a top 20 forward regardless of his spotty playoff record. You don't win 2 pearson trophies and 8 top 10s if you are not great.
I think Stastny is above the others you just mentioned bya healthy margin.

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10-08-2008, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Marcel Dionne.

Not very close at all.
Neither played for a great team.
Even if I agree that Dionne was the better player, that's an oversimplification. Neither were on great teams, but Dionne had the "Triple Crown" line, which was pretty formidable for a good portion of his prime.

Ducky had, what, the "Paul Maclean and some other guy" line? Not quite the same support there.

Hawerchuk was the better defensive player, and was far from the perennial playoff bed-crapper Dionne was. Take all that into consideration, and the comparison's closer than it might seem on first glance.

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10-08-2008, 06:44 PM
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Closer than some might think, but Dionne still wins this one. He had just too many times where he was among the best players in the league. He would have had several more years where he would have been universally considered a top 5 player in the NHL. Hawerchuk might have '85 as a lock but that is it. Nothing wrong with that, but that just goes to show you the peak value Dionne has despite the playoff woes. Hawerchuk brought it a bit more in the postseason, which narrows it down a bit, but Dionne is just too strong to beat here

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10-08-2008, 07:18 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctordark View Post
Even if I agree that Dionne was the better player, that's an oversimplification. Neither were on great teams, but Dionne had the "Triple Crown" line, which was pretty formidable for a good portion of his prime.

Ducky had, what, the "Paul Maclean and some other guy" line? Not quite the same support there.

Hawerchuk was the better defensive player, and was far from the perennial playoff bed-crapper Dionne was. Take all that into consideration, and the comparison's closer than it might seem on first glance.
Dale Hawerchuk, Paul Maclean and Brian Mullen...

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Old
10-08-2008, 07:33 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashMan View Post
Dale Hawerchuk, Paul Maclean and Brian Mullen...
MacLean and Mullen, yeah that isnt Simmer and Taylor either...........

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10-08-2008, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
MacLean and Mullen, yeah that isnt Simmer and Taylor either...........
Taylor is good on his own, but Simmer basically made his career off being setup nicely by Dionne. I mean what are his credentials without Dionne, being a minor leaguer and putting up lackluster seasons with Boston and Pittsburgh.

You can make up the "hawerchuk had ****tier teammates' excuse and that still doesn't change the fact that he was never on the level to win an art ross and pearson anyways. Dionne was consistently in the top 5, while Hawerchuck may have slipped in once or twice. yzerman played with bums for the first half of his career, yet he was still top 5 in the league, him and dionne are just on another level.

Who were Dionne's linemates when he was scoring 120 points in the 70's? Goring was the 2nd line? He clearly outclasses Hawerchuck.

By the way Hawerchuk was playing with good teammates during his stint in Buffalo and his stats seemed pretty similar to me.


Last edited by ushvinder: 10-08-2008 at 10:40 PM.
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10-08-2008, 10:37 PM
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dionne without a second thought. hawerchuk was good, but..

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10-09-2008, 12:15 AM
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Based on what I've seen, which is admittedly only 10-15 games, I would actually take Hawerchuck. But since one can't totally dismiss the numbers & awards, it's Dionne for me, thank you very much.

Ah, Perreault and P. Stastny were much better than either Dionne or Hawerchuck. My eyes can't lie that much.

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10-09-2008, 03:58 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doctordark View Post
Even if I agree that Dionne was the better player, that's an oversimplification. Neither were on great teams, but Dionne had the "Triple Crown" line, which was pretty formidable for a good portion of his prime.

Ducky had, what, the "Paul Maclean and some other guy" line? Not quite the same support there.

Hawerchuk was the better defensive player, and was far from the perennial playoff bed-crapper Dionne was. Take all that into consideration, and the comparison's closer than it might seem on first glance.
And linemates would have made nothing more than a 5-10 point difference if they were different like the sun and moon.

Simmer and Taylor were good, but not great players.

Since Dionne was capable of putting up 121 points on the dead wings with career average 40-50 point scorers Danny grant and Nick Libett, it shows you he could do it regardless of linemates. His first few years in LA, his next best player was Goring, and Goring centered the second line. Dionne put up 122 points with Tom Williams and Mike Murphy(Again, 50 point average guys).

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10-09-2008, 04:50 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Taylor is good on his own, but Simmer basically made his career off being setup nicely by Dionne. I mean what are his credentials without Dionne, being a minor leaguer and putting up lackluster seasons with Boston and Pittsburgh.

You can make up the "hawerchuk had ****tier teammates' excuse and that still doesn't change the fact that he was never on the level to win an art ross and pearson anyways. Dionne was consistently in the top 5, while Hawerchuck may have slipped in once or twice. yzerman played with bums for the first half of his career, yet he was still top 5 in the league, him and dionne are just on another level.

Who were Dionne's linemates when he was scoring 120 points in the 70's? Goring was the 2nd line? He clearly outclasses Hawerchuck.

By the way Hawerchuk was playing with good teammates during his stint in Buffalo and his stats seemed pretty similar to me.

In fairness to Simmer, he had a couple of brutal knee injuries that really took alot out of him.

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10-09-2008, 12:55 PM
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lextune
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In a poll of NHL general managers during the mid-1980s (during Marcel's peak) asking them to select the current player they would start a franchise with, Hawerchuk was voted third behind only Wayne Gretzky and Paul Coffey.

Just thought I'd add that food for thought (although I totally disagree with it )


Last edited by lextune: 10-09-2008 at 07:24 PM.
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Old
10-09-2008, 02:23 PM
  #17
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I've always liked Hawerchuk, but this is not even close.

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10-09-2008, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
And linemates would have made nothing more than a 5-10 point difference if they were different like the sun and moon.
Even if we hold that as true (and it isn't for everyone), an extra 5-10 points is nothing to scoff at.

Quote:
Simmer and Taylor were good, but not great players.
Not Hall of Fame great, but Taylor topped 90 points three times and 100 twice, and Simmer was on consecutive first all-star teams. They were damn good complementary players. Hawerchuk didn't have anyone near that quality.

Quote:
Since Dionne was capable of putting up 121 points on the dead wings with career average 40-50 point scorers Danny grant and Nick Libett, it shows you he could do it regardless of linemates. His first few years in LA, his next best player was Goring, and Goring centered the second line. Dionne put up 122 points with Tom Williams and Mike Murphy(Again, 50 point average guys).
I'm not saying Dionne didn't. I am saying that Hawerchuk didn't have that extra padding for a good portion of his career, he was clearly the superior defensive player, and clearly the superior big game performer. I don't think it's enough to give him an edge over Dionne (results will always hold more weight than "what may have been"), but it makes for an interesting comparison.

If I wanted to win when it counted, I'd take Hawerchuk.

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10-09-2008, 07:23 PM
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Yep. Ducky was big in both the Canada Cups he played in.

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10-09-2008, 09:20 PM
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ever look up their junior and pro stats? dionne and its not even close

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10-09-2008, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by the_speedster View Post
ever look up their junior and pro stats? dionne and its not even close
Besides the question of why anyone would even bother with their junior stats...why would Hawerchuk be at such an egregious disadvantage there?

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10-09-2008, 10:14 PM
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ever look up their junior and pro stats? dionne and its not even close
hawerchuk was the leader of two straight memorial cup winners( cornwall royals) if i'm not mistaken.
and he was mvp of the final game of the 87 canada cup ( the best hockey game ever according to many).
dionne was amazing in his own right as well. i am biased because ducky is my favorite all time. but i think him VS. dionne is a lot closer than many think.

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10-10-2008, 12:37 AM
  #23
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Both very, very underrated players.

I'd have to go with Marcel Dionne, but hey, I'm a guy who thinks Dionne is better than Guy Lafleur and has a legitimate shot to be the 4th best Player Post Expansion. Dale Hawerchuk at his very best was very close if not on the same level as Dionne, but Dionne kept it up for quite awhile longer.

Forget what you've heard, this guy was no loser. I can't understand why people think of him as some stereotypical skilled but soft and one dimensional Player when this guy was a winner (and you don't need to win a Stanley Cup to be one). Watch him play, the little guy would battle in the corners for loose pucks, and would never give up on a play. Dionne was not by any stretch a bad Player without the puck; he was significantly better than Lafleur in that regard from what I've seen.

Dionne would frequently and publicly call out his team's Management for not doing enough to commit to winning. Agree with those methods or not, but it does intimate at a strong desire to win.

Lastly, Dionne did underachieve in the Playoffs (unlike Hawerchuk), but very little. First, almost every Players numbers drop in the postseason, better teams and tighter checking. Second, in Dionne's case, the Kings had no secondary scoring and it was much easier to focus on one King's line than on the balanced attacks of the Bruins or Flyers or Canadiens or Islanders. Finally, when he took his team to the second round (and make no mistake, they were there because of him mainly) he scored 18 goals and 32 points in 28 games. When playing for Team Canada all those years, he again didn't achieve as well as most would expect, but he didn't choke at all. Just check the stats.

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10-10-2008, 03:28 AM
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Second, in Dionne's case, the Kings had no secondary scoring and it was much easier to focus on one King's line than on the balanced attacks of the Bruins or Flyers or Canadiens or Islanders. Finally, when he took his team to the second round (and make no mistake, they were there because of him mainly) he scored 18 goals and 32 points in 28 games.
This is a very good point. The value of secondary scoring is off the charts in the post season.

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Old
10-10-2008, 10:53 AM
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This is a very good point. The value of secondary scoring is off the charts in the post season.
LA's secondary scoring was not Dynasty level, but it was average compared to other teams. By average, I mean they were no worse off than many.

I did see Dionne's play tail off during the playoffs. The same amount of effort was just not there from him, and he was frustrated by the pressure more than most I saw.

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