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Dale Hawerchuk or Marcel Dionne?

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Old
10-10-2008, 12:25 PM
  #26
ushvinder
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If you put a shutdown defencemen on those LA Kings teams to go along with the offense, I guarantee Dionne would have put up more numbers in the playoffs. He still outscored Lafleur 10/13 times during the main bulk of thier career from 1972-84. But to be fair to Lafleur, he was a 2nd liner during his first 3 years thanks to Mahovlich and Cournoyer.

I'm still surprised Savard and Hawerchuk were not options for top 100. Hawerchuk was a good two way player and he has the career stats. Savard has the playoff success and long regular season career, also a cup even though he was past it by then.

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10-10-2008, 12:43 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
If you put a shutdown defencemen on those LA Kings teams to go along with the offense, I guarantee Dionne would have put up more numbers in the playoffs. He still outscored Lafleur 10/13 times during the main bulk of thier career from 1972-84. But to be fair to Lafleur, he was a 2nd liner during his first 3 years thanks to Mahovlich and Cournoyer.

I'm still surprised Savard and Hawerchuk were not options for top 100. Hawerchuk was a good two way player and he has the career stats. Savard has the playoff success and long regular season career, also a cup even though he was past it by then.
Why would a shutdown Defenseman matter more to Dionne's numbers? They had a very good Defensive Dman named Bob Murdoch, as well as a few others.

Who would you see Hawerchuk and Savard replacing on the list?

Hawerchuk was "Not a liability" defensively, but he was also not what I would call a "Good two way player". Acceptable is more like it.

Denis Savard was one of the best one on one players I have ever seen, but I cannot see him supplanting too many people. He was certainly a liability in his own end(Fun to watch though)

Both were probably coming up for voting a bit later. I am just curious as to who you think they would knock off the top 100 to earn a spot.

I like Oates slightly over either of them, despite his lower numbers. He was a top 5 all time playmaker, acceptable defensively like Hawerchuk, and his playoff numbers were very good. his average goes down drastically due to the last few years of his career, but he had a fantastic prime. Savard had some great playoffs too, but I just like Oates over him. Something less tangible that I am having trouble finding the words for. Oates just made his teammates so much better.


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 10-10-2008 at 12:52 PM.
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Old
10-10-2008, 12:48 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Why would a shutdown Defenseman matter more to Dionne's numbers? They had a very good Defensive Dman named Bob Murdoch, as well as a few others.

Who would you see Hawerchuk and Savard replacing on the list?

Hawerchuk was "Not a liability" defensively, but he was also not what I would call a "Good two way player". Acceptable is more like it.

Denis Savard was one of the best one on one players I have ever seen, but I cannot see him supplanting too many people.

Both were probably coming up for voting a bit later. I am just curious as to who you think they would knock off the top 100 to earn a spot.
Fedorov and Francis. Savard was clearly better in the playoffs than compared to Francis and before Ronny went off to Pittsburgh, it was clear who the superior offensive player really was. From 1981-1990 Savard was always outscoring Francis and its not like he was on some stacked team. He played for the post-tony esposito/ pre ed belfour blackhawks.

If the LA Kings had better defense, they win more games, which results in more points for Dionne. He has 2 good playoff runs anyways, its not like was a 5 point playoff player his whole career.

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10-10-2008, 01:00 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Fedorov and Francis. Savard was clearly better in the playoffs than compared to Francis and before Ronny went off to Pittsburgh, it was clear who the superior offensive player really was. From 1981-1990 Savard was always outscoring Francis and its not like he was on some stacked team. He played for the post-tony esposito/ pre ed belfour blackhawks.

If the LA Kings had better defense, they win more games, which results in more points for Dionne. He has 2 good playoff runs anyways, its not like was a 5 point playoff player his whole career.
The Blackhawks during Savard's time were much better than the Whalers, and Savard was a tremendous liability defensively, although pretty to watch. Savard's prime was also much shorter than Francis.

I know you love to pile all Francis accolades on his teammates, but you are sorely mistaken. Or at least, are overblowing it to titanic proportions. Francis was a great player on his own. Period. And his prime was a ton longer, and he was among the best two way players in the league.

I find it funny that you trash Francis now when a year ago you were complaining about how low he was on the list and citing his all time points as a reason he should be higher.

As for Fedorov. Not a chance do they come ahead of him. And I usually am harsh on Fedorov compared to most. in this case, he is clearly ahead.

Dionne literally turned off in the playoffs more often than not. Something I witnessed time and time again. He just seemed like he blew a fuse. Teammates or not, his numbers dropped unacceptably. Many others were capable of doing great without top teammates. He is no different.

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10-10-2008, 01:08 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
The Blackhawks during Savard's time were much better than the Whalers, and Savard was a tremendous liability defensively, although pretty to watch. Savard's prime was also much shorter than Francis.

I know you love to pile all Francis accolades on his teammates, but you are sorely mistaken. Or at least, are overblowing it to titanic proportions. Francis was a great player on his own. Period. And his prime was a ton longer, and he was among the best two way players in the league.

I find it funny that you trash Francis now when a year ago you were complaining about how low he was on the list and citing his all time points as a reason he should be higher.

As for Fedorov. Not a chance do they come ahead of him. And I usually am harsh on Fedorov compared to most. in this case, he is clearly ahead.

Dionne literally turned off in the playoffs more often than not. Something I witnessed time and time again. He just seemed like he blew a fuse. Teammates or not, his numbers dropped unacceptably. Many others were capable of doing great without top teammates. He is no different.
Clearly ahead based on what? That he had 2 great years and then turned into a 60 point player. I just find if funny how 2 years of excellence will put you ahead of guys that had 5 great seasons and like 5 very good ones.

Fedorov has been a washed up has been since 1997 ok, I dont really care what you have to say about his status in the top 100, I dont see him as a top 100 player. He's been a 60 point scorer since 1997, and a 40 point scorer since the lockout.


Last edited by ushvinder: 10-10-2008 at 01:55 PM.
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10-10-2008, 05:28 PM
  #31
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Fedorov has been a washed up has been since 1997
....Seriously....?

From 1997 to 2004 Fedorov played in 556 games and scored 490 points while playing an extremely solid two way game.

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10-10-2008, 06:09 PM
  #32
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Dionne

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10-10-2008, 09:15 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Clearly ahead based on what? That he had 2 great years and then turned into a 60 point player. I just find if funny how 2 years of excellence will put you ahead of guys that had 5 great seasons and like 5 very good ones.

Fedorov has been a washed up has been since 1997 ok, I dont really care what you have to say about his status in the top 100, I dont see him as a top 100 player. He's been a 60 point scorer since 1997, and a 40 point scorer since the lockout.
Ugh. You really do underrate playoff performance don't you?

First off, he did not just have 2 Great years. He had 2 tremendous years, several very good years, and then yes, his effort collapsed in the regular season, and he gets punished accordingly for it. However, come crunch time, there were few better.

Fedorov was a very key player to that Red wings squad and their 3 cups. One of the best two way forwards ever to play. His offensive numbers may have taken a backseat, but his defense never suffered much.

In his 13 years with the wings, he was first on the team in playoff scoring 8 times, and second 4 times, with one other playoff year placing 4th. Beating guys such as Yzerman, Shanahan, Lidstrom routinely and more often than not playing better defensive hockey than any other forward on the team.

He was their best forward the first year they won the cup and was crucial to their other two wins. One of the few who can boast 4 consecutive 20 point playoffs, and in the dead puck era.

Fedorov is a guy who could have been a top 30 player all time had he put the effort into it for more than 5 years. As it stands, his attitude and effort hurt him in my voting, but not enough to drop him out. In my constant revisions, He continually drops when I make cases in my head for other players to be ahead of him, but I see no case for Hawerchuk or Savard to jump ahead of him, although they are not far behind him. The pool of players that could be between 80-140 is very large.

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Old
10-11-2008, 01:02 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Ugh. You really do underrate playoff performance don't you?

First off, he did not just have 2 Great years. He had 2 tremendous years, several very good years, and then yes, his effort collapsed in the regular season, and he gets punished accordingly for it. However, come crunch time, there were few better.

Fedorov was a very key player to that Red wings squad and their 3 cups. One of the best two way forwards ever to play. His offensive numbers may have taken a backseat, but his defense never suffered much.

In his 13 years with the wings, he was first on the team in playoff scoring 8 times, and second 4 times, with one other playoff year placing 4th. Beating guys such as Yzerman, Shanahan, Lidstrom routinely and more often than not playing better defensive hockey than any other forward on the team.

He was their best forward the first year they won the cup and was crucial to their other two wins. One of the few who can boast 4 consecutive 20 point playoffs, and in the dead puck era.

Fedorov is a guy who could have been a top 30 player all time had he put the effort into it for more than 5 years. As it stands, his attitude and effort hurt him in my voting, but not enough to drop him out. In my constant revisions, He continually drops when I make cases in my head for other players to be ahead of him, but I see no case for Hawerchuk or Savard to jump ahead of him, although they are not far behind him. The pool of players that could be between 80-140 is very large.
Even if you want to leave fedorov in the top 100, I could easily take Bucyk out of it. His reputation has been inflated by Orr IMO. The guy was above average his whole career and then espo-orr arrive and he all of a sudden turns into a superstar in his late 30's. Very good player, but top 100, no.

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10-11-2008, 05:12 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Even if you want to leave fedorov in the top 100, I could easily take Bucyk out of it. His reputation has been inflated by Orr IMO. The guy was above average his whole career and then espo-orr arrive and he all of a sudden turns into a superstar in his late 30's. Very good player, but top 100, no.
All you ever do is try to say certain guys were nothing without other guys. You have no respect for players personal skills whatsoever, and you make brash assumptions regarding players you never even saw play.

Bucyk's numbers pre-Orr were very good for the era. Multiple time top 10 point scorer, goal scorer and assist man, and a hip check that left guys sprawled on the ice. He was rarely penalized because his hits were all clean, but was considered a big hitter his entire career and a lady bing candidate who intimidated without putting his team in the box every single year(Strange combo).

The early half of his career was spent on a very bad bruins team during an era where 55-66 points was good enough to get you into the top 10 in scoring because it was such a low scoring era(Remember, 60 points in the early 60's = 85 points in a higher scoring era), and he led the bruins in scoring multiple times pre Orr. He still holds the Bruins regular season goals record with 545. The man was a pillar of consistency at very good level no matter who he played with for 18 years straight until the age of 40 and spent most of those years on the second line, getting far less time with Orr than the Esposito/Hodge/Cashman line.

He certainly would have received more all star berths in the 60's if not for directly competing with Bobby Hull and Frank Mahovlich, 2 of the best LW's ever. According to Hockey outsider's 3rd team all star research, Bucyk is the all time leader for LW in 3rd team all star.

He was also an excellent playoff performer and responsible defensive player despite the run and gun nature is team incorporated after Orr arrived.

So nope, I do not see Bucyk being supplanted. He was great.

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