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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Jaromir Jagr vs. Phil Esposito

View Poll Results: Esposito or Jagr?
Phil Esposito 23 35.94%
Jaromir Jagr 41 64.06%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-10-2008, 03:32 PM
  #26
bcrt2000
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Originally Posted by Open Ice View Post
If I were in the playoffs I would take Espo
Despite the fact that Jagr was a beast in the playoffs at age 35 and none of his other team mates did diddly squat? (had 1.5 points per game, more than anyone else, and led the league in scoring well after the rangers were eliminated)

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Old
10-10-2008, 05:09 PM
  #27
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I do not like how Espo gets a free pass for not only largely being the product of Orr, but also the product of the weakest era since world war 2.

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Old
10-10-2008, 05:14 PM
  #28
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Jagr in regular season AND playoffs. He was dominant player despite playing with poor linemates (Kip Miller, German Titov and co).

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Old
10-10-2008, 06:07 PM
  #29
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
No. Without Orr their transition game is sub-par, if not brutal. Any good coach could use that fatal flaw to their advantage and Boston never wins a cup. Boston could have won with a healthy Orr, no Esposito, but not with Esposito and no Orr.
Espo led Boston in playoff points by a healthy margin in 1970, and tied with Orr for the lead in 1972. I'd say it's quite doubtful they win the Cup either year without him. Look what happened in 1973 when Espo was hurt. The Bruins flamed out in the first round to the same Rangers team they had beaten for the Cup the year before. Orr played every game in that series, but Esposito only played twice due to his injury.

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Old
10-10-2008, 06:30 PM
  #30
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I didn't realize how close their stats were. I had to go Jagr though.

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Old
10-10-2008, 08:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Kyle McMahon View Post
Espo led Boston in playoff points by a healthy margin in 1970, and tied with Orr for the lead in 1972. I'd say it's quite doubtful they win the Cup either year without him. Look what happened in 1973 when Espo was hurt. The Bruins flamed out in the first round to the same Rangers team they had beaten for the Cup the year before. Orr played every game in that series, but Esposito only played twice due to his injury.
I can't believe you are saying Espo was the key player. I think without Orr , Bruins win no cups in the 70's espo was replaceable, Orr was not.

I also think that Espo as a leader is way over-rated. Came up big & played over his head in the 72 summit but basically srepped into a vacum because Orr & Hull weren't there.

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Old
10-10-2008, 08:50 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I can't believe you are saying Espo was the key player. I think without Orr , Bruins win no cups in the 70's espo was replaceable, Orr was not.

I also think that Espo as a leader is way over-rated. Came up big & played over his head in the 72 summit but basically srepped into a vacum because Orr & Hull weren't there.
Completely disagree.

I think BOTH were indispensable to the team. Without either, the team does not win.

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Old
10-10-2008, 09:22 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Completely disagree.

I think BOTH were indispensable to the team. Without either, the team does not win.
Watch some games. The Orr transitional game was the key to the Bruin's game. Espo could not havr played that style otherwise. Took a second look at some games lately. Espo parked hinself in the slot & fired pucks.

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Old
10-10-2008, 09:46 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Watch some games. The Orr transitional game was the key to the Bruin's game. Espo could not havr played that style otherwise. Took a second look at some games lately. Espo parked hinself in the slot & fired pucks.
I did watch games. A bunch live, and on TV. Obviously Orr was their greatest player and the main part of their game. But you always criminally underrate Esposito.

Esposito was known for his slot play, but it was not all he did. Cashman and Hodge played more of a factor in his scoring than Orr did.

One of your primary arguments for your old jets boys Hedberg and Nilsson is that they would have been scoring far more in the NHL had they not been placed on Shero's rangers because of his system. Does that theory not also apply to Esposito who outscored them on the same team, despite his advanced age?


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 10-10-2008 at 09:54 PM.
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Old
10-10-2008, 09:54 PM
  #35
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When it's this close, go with the Italian. That's what Espo would do.

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Old
10-10-2008, 09:58 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Watch some games. The Orr transitional game was the key to the Bruin's game. Espo could not havr played that style otherwise. Took a second look at some games lately. Espo parked hinself in the slot & fired pucks.
His linemates, Cashman in particular, and to a lesser extent Hodge was as much a key to Esposito's success as Orr, but Esposito was very, very good at what he did.

Probably better than anyone before him, and perhaps after, he could compete in the slot where his lack of foot speed was unimportant. The guy was a great player anywhere on the ice but absolutely relentless in front of the net.

Orr was obviously the better player, the on ice leader, and quarterback for that team, but without him Espo was still a great player.

I would call it almost a tie overall. Jagr's skating puts him well up on talent, the rest is close, but the competitive intangibles pulls Espo back towards (not quite) even.

edit: hadn't seen Thornton's post


Last edited by Crosbyfan: 10-10-2008 at 10:07 PM.
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Old
10-10-2008, 09:58 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
I did watch games. A bunch live, and on TV. Obviously Orr was their greatest player and the main part of their game. But you always criminally underrate Esposito.

Esposito was known for his slot play, but it was not all he did. Cashman and Hodge played more of a factor in his scoring than Orr did.

One of your primary arguments for your old jets boys Hedberg and Nilsson is that they would have been scoring far more in the NHL had they not been placed on Shero's rangers because of his system. Does that theory not also apply to Esposito who outscored them on the same team, despite his advanced age?
I am not criminally under-rating Espo. I think he was the greatest garbage goal guy ever. and Hofge & cashman had a lot of factor in his success. However, Orr was the leader on that team & was the reason for their success. Look at a guy like Bucyk. Never even hit 30 pre Orr. Now he is scoring 50 with Orr. Thanks to Orr, A lot of forwards on those bruin teams have inflated reputations.

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Old
10-10-2008, 10:12 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
I did watch games. A bunch live, and on TV. Obviously Orr was their greatest player and the main part of their game. But you always criminally underrate Esposito.

Esposito was known for his slot play, but it was not all he did. Cashman and Hodge played more of a factor in his scoring than Orr did.

One of your primary arguments for your old jets boys Hedberg and Nilsson is that they would have been scoring far more in the NHL had they not been placed on Shero's rangers because of his system. Does that theory not also apply to Esposito who outscored them on the same team, despite his advanced age?
I don't know why you bring Hedberg & Nilsson into this. Anyway both were more skilled than Espo. Nilsson PPG were better & Hedberg was close. Anyways Stats aren't everything. Hey, espo wasc great. Bad skater but he did a lot with his limited talent. I give him credit. he was an over achiever.

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Old
10-10-2008, 10:20 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I don't know why you bring Hedberg & Nilsson into this. Anyway both were more skilled than Espo. Nilsson PPG were better & Hedberg was close. Anyways Stats aren't everything. Hey, espo wasc great. Bad skater but he did a lot with his limited talent. I give him credit. he was an over achiever.
Limited skating talent? He had the best "hands" in the business for a guy his size. He was incredibly strong on the puck. Overall talent neither Hedberg or Nilsson were his equal.

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Old
10-10-2008, 10:26 PM
  #40
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Limited skating talent? He had the best "hands" in the business for a guy his size. He was incredibly strong on the puck. Overall talent neither Hedberg or Nilsson were his equal.
I agree, Bad skater, Great Hands, strong on the puck. But doesn't mean **** all unless someone feeds you in the slot.

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10-10-2008, 10:32 PM
  #41
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I agree, Bad skater, Great Hands, strong on the puck. But doesn't mean **** all unless someone feeds you in the slot.
It's a team sport.

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10-10-2008, 10:36 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
It's a team sport.
Of course. To me that gives the edge to Jagr. Creates goals without parking himself in the slot.

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Old
10-10-2008, 11:23 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Nalyd Psycho View Post
No. Without Orr their transition game is sub-par, if not brutal. Any good coach could use that fatal flaw to their advantage and Boston never wins a cup. Boston could have won with a healthy Orr, no Esposito, but not with Esposito and no Orr.
Of course Orr was the star but Espo was the team leader,the straw,the glue,the voice,the personality. It's reported this team was divided into Orr's camp and Espo's camp but Espo's personality trumped all in the room.

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Old
10-10-2008, 11:27 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
Of course Orr was the star but Espo was the team leader,the straw,the glue,the voice,the personality. It's reported this team was divided into Orr's camp and Espo's camp but Espo's personality trumped all in the room.
Without Orr they don't win those cups. Espo is standing alone at the blueline waiting for those feeds that never come.

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10-10-2008, 11:45 PM
  #45
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Without Orr they don't win those cups. Espo is standing alone at the blueline waiting for those feeds that never come.
Same as Jagr would have been,only by himself.

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Old
10-10-2008, 11:56 PM
  #46
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Same as Jagr would have been,only by himself.
????

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Old
10-10-2008, 11:57 PM
  #47
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I am not criminally under-rating Espo. I think he was the greatest garbage goal guy ever.
The so called 'garbage goal' is one of the most misunderstood aspects of hockey offense. Being in the 'right place at the right time' is no accident.

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10-11-2008, 12:07 AM
  #48
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The so called 'garbage goal' is one of the most misunderstood aspects of hockey offense. Being in the 'right place at the right time' is no accident.
Orr was a very lucky guy. Skate the puck up ice & beat several guys & fibd Espo stting in the slot (pardon me, in the right place at the right time)

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10-11-2008, 12:16 AM
  #49
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He wasn't "sitting" there. He was fighting for every inch.

And while he himself admitted that he did not have a very hard shot, he had an extremely accurate shot. And he was one of the greatest shot deflectors that ever played.

He was a sniper. Much more than Jagr. You can give the playmaking edge to Jagr, but the shooting edge is Espo's.

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Old
10-11-2008, 12:24 AM
  #50
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He wasn't "sitting" there. He was fighting for every inch.

And while he himself admitted that he did not have a very hard shot, he had an extremely accurate shot. And he was one of the greatest shot deflectors that ever played.

He was a sniper. Much more than Jagr. You can give the playmaking edge to Jagr, but the shooting edge is Espo's.
I will tell you. I watched those games at the time & I have watched them again recently. I am just not that imptressed with ESpo. He hung in the slot with Hodge & Cash doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Espo always went for the shot, Strikes me as a guy very much out for himdelf.

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