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Jaromir Jagr vs. Phil Esposito

View Poll Results: Esposito or Jagr?
Phil Esposito 23 35.94%
Jaromir Jagr 41 64.06%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-11-2008, 09:23 AM
  #51
Dennis Bonvie
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I will tell you. I watched those games at the time & I have watched them again recently. I am just not that imptressed with ESpo. He hung in the slot with Hodge & Cash doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Espo always went for the shot, Strikes me as a guy very much out for himdelf.
Did Espo steal your girlfriend?

Your analysis of his play is borderline ridiculous and not at all in line with your posts on other subjects. You talk about a guy with 2 Hart trophies, 6 straight years as a first team all-star and league goal scoring leader, 5 scoring titles and 3 years leading the league in assists like he's a statue that never played away from the slot.

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Old
10-11-2008, 09:59 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Did Espo steal your girlfriend?

Your analysis of his play is borderline ridiculous and not at all in line with your posts on other subjects. You talk about a guy with 2 Hart trophies, 6 straight years as a first team all-star and league goal scoring leader, 5 scoring titles and 3 years leading the league in assists like he's a statue that never played away from the slot.
I have never said that he wasn't good at what he did and he did put up great stats & win some awards. Just not my type of player, I guess. Too each his own. I am only giving my impression which you think is ridiculous (thank you, very much). Thing is that many think that he was fantastic, but there are others who think otherwise. You are a Bruins's fan who probably saw him a lot more than I did so maybe your opinion is more valid.

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10-11-2008, 11:10 AM
  #53
Kyle McMahon
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I can't believe you are saying Espo was the key player. I think without Orr , Bruins win no cups in the 70's espo was replaceable, Orr was not.
I am NOT saying Orr was more important than Esposito. They were both key players, and Boston probably doesn't win Cups if you take either one of them away.

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I also think that Espo as a leader is way over-rated. Came up big & played over his head in the 72 summit but basically srepped into a vacum because Orr & Hull weren't there.
So you're saying Esposito's performance in the Summit Series shouldn't count for as much because he didn't have Orr and Hull there? That's the first I've ever heard of a player being punished for stepping up and taking over when elite teammates were unavailable.

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10-11-2008, 11:40 AM
  #54
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I am NOT saying Orr was more important than Esposito. They were both key players, and Boston probably doesn't win Cups if you take either one of them away.



So you're saying Esposito's performance in the Summit Series shouldn't count for as much because he didn't have Orr and Hull there? That's the first I've ever heard of a player being punished for stepping up and taking over when elite teammates were unavailable.
You are probably right about the cups. Espo was the second best on the team. Take him away would have left a big hole in the line-up.

As far as 72 goes, I didn't punish Espo at all. I said he came up Big.

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Old
10-11-2008, 11:55 AM
  #55
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Surprisingly similar stats.

My vote is for Jagr though and it wasnt even close.

Jagr was able to win by himself. Never a cup, but he won scoring titles and lead different teams. He played and succeeded in the dead puck era as well and the crazy scoring 90's. He also played and IMO was the best in the world in 05-06 and lead a Rangers team with noone around him out of the shadowy abyss.

Espo played in the era where goalies took up about 10% of the net. I couldve been a superstar in that era.

And as many have noted, he was never the best on his team. He was always in Orr's shadow.

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Old
10-11-2008, 12:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Rangers2009 View Post
Surprisingly similar stats.

My vote is for Jagr though and it wasnt even close.

Jagr was able to win by himself. Never a cup, but he won scoring titles and lead different teams. He played and succeeded in the dead puck era as well and the crazy scoring 90's. He also played and IMO was the best in the world in 05-06 and lead a Rangers team with noone around him out of the shadowy abyss.

Espo played in the era where goalies took up about 10% of the net. I couldve been a superstar in that era.

And as many have noted, he was never the best on his team. He was always in Orr's shadow.
It's kind of hard being the best on your team when Orr is on the roster, just like Jagr was never the best on his team until Lemieux took his time off. During his peak, Espo was always one of the 2 or 3 best players in the NHL. Basically what Jagr was. If Jagr was playing at the same time as a peak Orr, he wouldn't have ever been the best in the NHL either.

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Old
10-11-2008, 12:21 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
It's kind of hard being the best on your team when Orr is on the roster, just like Jagr was never the best on his team until Lemieux took his time off. During his peak, Espo was always one of the 2 or 3 best players in the NHL. Basically what Jagr was. If Jagr was playing at the same time as a peak Orr, he wouldn't have ever been the best in the NHL either.

And how do you know that? He might have even more success in that era.

You simply don't know how would Jagr do.

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10-11-2008, 12:24 PM
  #58
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And how do you know that? He might have even more success in that era.

You simply don't know how would Jagr do.
Using that logic, maybe Esposito would have been better than Lemieux in the 90's era. You simply don't know how Esposito would do.

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10-11-2008, 12:26 PM
  #59
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Using that logic, maybe Esposito would have been better than Lemieux in the 90's era. You simply don't know how Esposito would do.
I never wrote I know that.

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10-11-2008, 12:28 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
You are probably right about the cups. Espo was the second best on the team. Take him away would have left a big hole in the line-up.

As far as 72 goes, I didn't punish Espo at all. I said he came up Big.
OK, I just misunderstood your "vacuum" comment then. I thought you were saying he had an easier time because two other stars were not present or something.

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Old
10-11-2008, 02:04 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
I have never said that he wasn't good at what he did and he did put up great stats & win some awards. Just not my type of player, I guess. Too each his own. I am only giving my impression which you think is ridiculous (thank you, very much). Thing is that many think that he was fantastic, but there are others who think otherwise. You are a Bruins's fan who probably saw him a lot more than I did so maybe your opinion is more valid.
I think that is the crux of this. Some people approve of his methods of mass producing points. Some disapprove

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10-11-2008, 02:07 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Rangers2009 View Post
Surprisingly similar stats.

My vote is for Jagr though and it wasnt even close.

Jagr was able to win by himself. Never a cup, but he won scoring titles and lead different teams. He played and succeeded in the dead puck era as well and the crazy scoring 90's. He also played and IMO was the best in the world in 05-06 and lead a Rangers team with noone around him out of the shadowy abyss.

Espo played in the era where goalies took up about 10% of the net. I couldve been a superstar in that era.
And as many have noted, he was never the best on his team. He was always in Orr's shadow.
That's just silly. If it was so easy, why wasn't everyone a superstar??

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Old
10-11-2008, 03:08 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Rangers2009 View Post
Surprisingly similar stats.

My vote is for Jagr though and it wasnt even close.

Jagr was able to win by himself. Never a cup, but he won scoring titles and lead different teams. He played and succeeded in the dead puck era as well and the crazy scoring 90's. He also played and IMO was the best in the world in 05-06 and lead a Rangers team with noone around him out of the shadowy abyss.

Espo played in the era where goalies took up about 10% of the net. I couldve been a superstar in that era.

And as many have noted, he was never the best on his team. He was always in Orr's shadow.
Enjoy posting in the polls section. Nobody in this section wants to hear that hogwash.

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Old
10-11-2008, 05:44 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by lrodptl View Post
Of course Orr was the star but Espo was the team leader,the straw,the glue,the voice,the personality. It's reported this team was divided into Orr's camp and Espo's camp but Espo's personality trumped all in the room.
I guess leadership can be parsed several different ways, but Orr was the on ice leader of that team - even though Chief was the "C" and Espo wore an "A" much of the time.

Espo couldn't even fight for himself half the freakin time -- notice how Orr comes in to bail him out at the beginning of this video, and then Espo is "escorted" away, leaving Orr to finish the job....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWRd2UBXyZY

Also, in the video starting around :40sec, there is a classic Orr rush, skating around everyone while Espo gets in position to pound it home -- classic stuff that was a regular occurrance back in the day....

There are a few Espo assists in the video as well that weren't of the rebound variety, mostly plays leading Orr for golden scoring opportunities.

That said, I think Jagr was more highly skilled and I would want him before Espo, though Espo was highly effective within his skill set...


Last edited by 85highlander: 10-11-2008 at 08:27 PM.
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Old
10-11-2008, 08:24 PM
  #65
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Jagr aged better, he put up two elite seasons outside of his prime. As soon as Orr was gone, Espo became a point per gamer and he remained that way for the remainder of his career.

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10-12-2008, 09:37 PM
  #66
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I don't know why you bring Hedberg & Nilsson into this. Anyway both were more skilled than Espo. Nilsson PPG were better & Hedberg was close. Anyways Stats aren't everything. Hey, espo wasc great. Bad skater but he did a lot with his limited talent. I give him credit. he was an over achiever.
Career PPG (playoffs too):

Jaromir Jagr 1.234
Peter Forsberg 1.232
Phil Esposito 1.223
Kent Nilsson 1.206

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10-12-2008, 09:52 PM
  #67
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Career PPG (playoffs too):

Jaromir Jagr 1.234
Peter Forsberg 1.232
Phil Esposito 1.223
Kent Nilsson 1.206
Ulf Nilsson, not Kent. We were discussing Ulf Nilsson and Anders Hedberg, and Pappyline has a theory over why they scored so much less at NHL level than WHA level. The fact that they went to Shero's defense first rangers(Although I have some dispute with this and reckon half the reason was the much tougher NHL competition).

My point in bringing them up was, if Pappyline uses that theory for those two guys(Their scoring dropped by about a third to half their WHA PPG), the same holds true with Esposito(That Esposito would have scored a bunch more on another team, and the system held him back).

By this logic(Pappyline's logic), if Espo had gone to another team of the era offensive mold, he would have scored much more than he did on the rags.

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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Jagr aged better, he put up two elite seasons outside of his prime. As soon as Orr was gone, Espo became a point per gamer and he remained that way for the remainder of his career.
See above

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10-12-2008, 10:03 PM
  #68
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Ulf Nilsson, not Kent. We were discussing Ulf Nilsson and Anders Hedberg, and Pappyline has a theory over why they scored so much less at NHL level than WHA level. The fact that they went to Shero's defense first rangers(Although I have some dispute with this and reckon half the reason was the much tougher NHL competition).

My point in bringing them up was, if Pappyline uses that theory for those two guys(Their scoring dropped by about a third to half their WHA PPG), the same holds true with Esposito(That Esposito would have scored a bunch more on another team, and the system held him back).

By this logic(Pappyline's logic), if Espo had gone to another team of the era offensive mold, he would have scored much more than he did on the rags.



See above
I think personality comes into play here. Nilsson & Hedberg were willing to adapt. With Espo & his ego, that would never have happened. Espo went for the net right to the end & wouldn't change for any coach. Can't imagine Espo being willing or able to play like Nilsson & hedberg did for the rangers. Nilsson was injured for most of his NHL career. I think he would have put up big numbers if healthy.

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10-12-2008, 10:44 PM
  #69
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I think personality comes into play here. Nilsson & Hedberg were willing to adapt. With Espo & his ego, that would never have happened. Espo went for the net right to the end & wouldn't change for any coach. Can't imagine Espo being willing or able to play like Nilsson & hedberg did for the rangers. Nilsson was injured for most of his NHL career. I think he would have put up big numbers if healthy.
How do you mean adapt? His style? Yeah, Esposito knew how best to use himself to score and play, and he was fairly one dimensional, Although not as bad as many imply. He did not "only" go to the slot all the time, that was just his primary weapon 75% of the time.

The bottom line is still this: His offense was better than Hedberg and Nilsson, and would have been on any team IMO.

Despite having trouble adapting, he was still the Rangers best player and far and away their scorer for 5 of his 6 years there.

Esposito played relatively well defensively and was a constant fixture for the bruins and team Canada on the PK. It seemed like the Rangers used him less on the PK than the bruins did, despite him being pretty good at it and despite being a more defensive team as you say.

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10-12-2008, 11:00 PM
  #70
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How do you mean adapt? His style? Yeah, Esposito knew how best to use himself to score and play, and he was fairly one dimensional, Although not as bad as many imply. He did not "only" go to the slot all the time, that was just his primary weapon 75% of the time.

The bottom line is still this: His offense was better than Hedberg and Nilsson, and would have been on any team IMO.

Despite having trouble adapting, he was still the Rangers best player and far and away their scorer for 5 of his 6 years there.

Esposito played relatively well defensively and was a constant fixture for the bruins and team Canada on the PK. It seemed like the Rangers used him less on the PK than the bruins did, despite him being pretty good at it and despite being a more defensive team as you say.
Here we go again. You missed the point. IMO, Espo was not a coachable player. Hedberg & Nilsson were told by Shero how to play & that was OK, They were adaptable. Could espo have transformed himself into a checker. I don't think so. He wouldn;t have been willing & he didn't have the speed. Sure he was good on the PK. All players with good hands were. Howe & Hull killed penalties too,If I remember correctly Sanderson was the pime centre on the PK for that Boston team.

As you say Espo Knew best how to score & play. Maybe I am too hard on the guy. To be honest, I hated his style of play & his arrogance. But you love him along with all the Bruins fans from the 70's. Too each his own

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10-14-2008, 12:30 PM
  #71
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Teammates:
Jagr had Mario Lemieux for the first 7 years of his career in Pittsburgh, during which he was a very good player. However, he really blossomed after Mario left and led the league in scoring without Lemieux 4.5 times, with linemates like Kip Miller, German Titov, and others who aren't worth remembering. Esposito had some of the most powerful teams in history in Boston, and was of course aided by Bobby Orr, a player greater than Esposito in every single way. His linemates weren't Lemieux-caliber, but he did have guys like Ken Hodge and Johnny Bucyk. Advantage: Jagr
I agree with your arguments except for this one, Jagr definitely had an edge in teammates. He played with Mario until 1997, and then Lemieux came back later on and won Jagr another Art Ross in 2001.

Not only that, but in seasons where Mario was gone (see 94/95), Jagr had another HOF legend center on his line in Ron Francis. Francis also always helped Jagr score poinst even with Mario in the lineup, as he was the quarterback for Pittsburgh's vaunted powerplay.

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10-14-2008, 01:30 PM
  #72
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I agree with your arguments except for this one, Jagr definitely had an edge in teammates. He played with Mario until 1997, and then Lemieux came back later on and won Jagr another Art Ross in 2001.

Not only that, but in seasons where Mario was gone (see 94/95), Jagr had another HOF legend center on his line in Ron Francis. Francis also always helped Jagr score poinst even with Mario in the lineup, as he was the quarterback for Pittsburgh's vaunted powerplay.
Francis for one year, and then Straka(Who is about equal to a Patrick Marleau(Which is good). + A few guys like Kovalev and Lang.

Jagr's help was not all star class, but it was far from the abysmal pool everyone tries to pass it off for. That combined with Pittsburgh playing one of the most offensive styles in the league at that time.

When it comes down to it, offensively I would take Jagr. But intangibles such as defensive play, Leadership, heart, Grit and playing every game like it was your last + Playoff play, Esposito jumps ahead. Those same qualities are what jumps Messier ahead of Jagr in my list.

Many of the younger less important Boston roleplayers recall that Esposito's style of leadership made them all feel like they were as important as Bobby Orr.

Between 22-27, I have Esposito, Messier, Clarke, Jagr and Lindsay. Its very arguable for all of them. Just a matter of preference based on who I saw and what I consider important at this point.

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10-14-2008, 01:36 PM
  #73
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im not voting but this is a tough call especially after seeing those career stats. ive seen many games with phil esposito but i just dont feel its enough for me to compare him with jagr. if a gun was pressed to my head and i had to make a choice id vote for espo. i love the tough and rough play that espo played with and like mentioned above that speech and leadership with team canada in 72 was awesome.

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10-14-2008, 02:38 PM
  #74
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I agree with your arguments except for this one, Jagr definitely had an edge in teammates. He played with Mario until 1997, and then Lemieux came back later on and won Jagr another Art Ross in 2001.

Not only that, but in seasons where Mario was gone (see 94/95), Jagr had another HOF legend center on his line in Ron Francis. Francis also always helped Jagr score poinst even with Mario in the lineup, as he was the quarterback for Pittsburgh's vaunted powerplay.
Jagr helped Francis put up points A LOT more than Francis helped Jagr. Case in point: Francis' best seasons were with Jagr, Jagr's best seasons were without Francis (or Lemieux)

Jagr had Lemieux until 1997, at which point he was just 25. He hadn't even hit his prime yet. After that, he led the league in points 4 times with a cast of teammates that was sometimes mediocre, sometimes god-awful. Lemieux is better than Jagr, but Jagr's best seasons were without him.

In the same way, Orr is better than Esposito, but Esposito's best seasons were when he had Orr.

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10-14-2008, 02:46 PM
  #75
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Assists does not associate with playmaking ability, only those you don't know what a true play maker is thinks other wise. A player can obtain a large number of assists just by shooting and someone else scoring off the rebound.
Yup

Atleast half my assists in nhl09 BAP are just people scoring off my rebounds

Plus Espo had a few team mates that werent too shabby at scoring themselves

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