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Old
10-12-2008, 03:31 AM
  #1
Kaptah
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Coyote Olli

Decent start, one goal and one assist against CBJ. Must be nice to have Shane Doan as a captain to shoulder the leadership pressure. Panthers never should have made him the captain. I predict that Olli will break 100 points this season if he stays healthy.

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10-12-2008, 04:43 AM
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Maybe... but the no-playoff streak will continue

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10-12-2008, 07:32 AM
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Decent start, one goal and one assist against CBJ. Must be nice to have Shane Doan as a captain to shoulder the leadership pressure. Panthers never should have made him the captain. I predict that Olli will break 100 points this season if he stays healthy.
Fine...but tell me who then

100 pts. no , playoffs probably. My opinion only.

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10-12-2008, 09:44 AM
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I don't see why Olli would magically break 100 this year. He's not the type of player who benefits from having good linemates. I predict something around the same point totals he's had the past few years.

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10-12-2008, 09:59 AM
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I so far love this trade. Ballard's awesome and Boynton has been solid in the two games, imo.

Ballard's already upended a few guys and he's so fast. Quick on the rush and is good with the puck.

So far as not giving Olli the captaincy, I'll agree he shouldn't have held onto it for so long. Still, both sides needed the change in scenary. Hope he does well there. I'll take Ballard.

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10-12-2008, 10:06 AM
  #6
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
Decent start, one goal and one assist against CBJ. Must be nice to have Shane Doan as a captain to shoulder the leadership pressure. Panthers never should have made him the captain. I predict that Olli will break 100 points this season if he stays healthy.
Jokinen scores 2 points on the power play. What is surprising about that? His ability to score from the point was never an issue.

You have to give to get. Jokinen for Ballard/Boynton/Robak. The "hockey experts" lambasted the move. Well, Ballard looks great. Boynton looks solid and adds some much needed grit. If Robak can contribute, that's gravy.

I can certainly see what Martin saw in those players when he dealt "Florida's best player" (according to the experts) for them. I think in the long run, a lot of "hockey experts" will be eating crow.

Even if Jokinen has a productive season in Phoenix, I still do this trade.

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10-12-2008, 10:19 AM
  #7
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10-12-2008, 10:27 AM
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Also, I really like what Stillman has been able to bring to the team so far. Like I said earlier, Jokinen wasn't really a player that used his linemates really well. Stillman has had such great vision out there. He's been hitting passes that the Florida Panthers just simply NEVER have made and on the powerplay his decision making is great. He is going to make all the players around him better and I like that.

I say this because Stillman is essentially Jokinen's replacement.

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10-12-2008, 10:31 AM
  #9
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Win - Win trade IMO.

It will be interesting to see who makes the playoffs between Jokinen's Coyotes, Luongo's Canucks, and Keenan/Bertuzzi's Flames.

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10-12-2008, 11:47 AM
  #10
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Win - Win trade IMO.
No kidding - anyone else get the feeling that while Olli was our leading scorer, he may also have been a crutch that the younger guys depended upon, so that now he's gone they're forced to stand on their own and are finally going to live up to expectations?

It's like he was holding them up and holding them back at the same time. Meanwhile, his value was such that the team could acquire a couple of quality players where it really needed them, on the blueline. The difference between last year's defense being easily overwhelmed in its own zone and this year's is phenomenal.

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10-12-2008, 11:48 AM
  #11
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I agree Olli should have never been made captain. But, he will not break 100 points this year. I like this trade. It was only one game, but it was the same old Olli. He had no influence on the game other than when he was putting up points. He doesn't excel in a puck possession game at all, and he still contributed to a few scoring chances against last night. He's not good at holding onto the puck in the offensive zone, and he's not an above average passer. He needs to be set up in the slot or be on the point on the PP to unleash his deadly slapshot to score points.

Stillman, though he is not as good a point producer as Olli, is a much better playmaker and brings much more to an offense in terms of consistent offensive pressure and puck possession. It's just, when Olli gets even a sliver of the opportunitu he got last night on his goal, when he was left all alone in front of Leclaire, he's going to bury those 99% of the time, and that's what makes him an effective player, his shot.

So far, it doesn't seem like offense is a problem for us, and Ballard and Boynton have been very big contributors for us. A couple bounces go the other way, we could easily be 2-0 right now and we have looked good. We outshot the Canes 34-23 and outshot Atlanta 38-33 despite taking 4 penalties in the first 10 minutes. Ballard especially has really contributed to a better transition game for us, and I like how our D has really limited the quality shots against in these two games.

I agree with another poster, probably a win-win trade.

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10-12-2008, 02:10 PM
  #12
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
I agree Olli should have never been made captain. But, he will not break 100 points this year. I like this trade. It was only one game, but it was the same old Olli. He had no influence on the game other than when he was putting up points. He doesn't excel in a puck possession game at all, and he still contributed to a few scoring chances against last night. He's not good at holding onto the puck in the offensive zone, and he's not an above average passer. He needs to be set up in the slot or be on the point on the PP to unleash his deadly slapshot to score points.

Stillman, though he is not as good a point producer as Olli, is a much better playmaker and brings much more to an offense in terms of consistent offensive pressure and puck possession. It's just, when Olli gets even a sliver of the opportunitu he got last night on his goal, when he was left all alone in front of Leclaire, he's going to bury those 99% of the time, and that's what makes him an effective player, his shot.

So far, it doesn't seem like offense is a problem for us, and Ballard and Boynton have been very big contributors for us. A couple bounces go the other way, we could easily be 2-0 right now and we have looked good. We outshot the Canes 34-23 and outshot Atlanta 38-33 despite taking 4 penalties in the first 10 minutes. Ballard especially has really contributed to a better transition game for us, and I like how our D has really limited the quality shots against in these two games.

I agree with another poster, probably a win-win trade.
First: I'm for the trade, I think it was good for Florida. Whether it will be for Phoenix and Olli remains to be seen, but likely it will. Olli will probably learn a few things form the Great One.

Second: I don't quite agree with your assessment of Olli as a player. Yes, he has one of the better shots in the game. But I think it's exactly that aspect of his game that makes his other offensive attributes seem average. In fact he is very good in puck possession on the rush, and he's most definitely an above average passer. His offensive game is multidimensional, it's not just a shot. He's a little like Brett Hull, who was also mostly known for his shot and was simultaneously criticized as someone who can't pass, can't skate, can't do anything else.

Think of it this way. If there's one guy who's got a really good shot (but is also a good passer), and another guy who's a good/great passer but with an average shot, who would you rather have make the pass and who would you have take the shot, if you were the coach? That's why the Ollis of the world take the shot and the Stephen Weisses of the world make the pass, if you have a choice. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Olli's weakness and biggest problem is his defense, backchecking and forechecking which are below league average. Basically any time when the other team has the puck. That's why he's a liability - not because he can't pass or hold onto the puck in the offensive zone.

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10-12-2008, 02:25 PM
  #13
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Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
First: I'm for the trade, I think it was good for Florida. Whether it will be for Phoenix and Olli remains to be seen, but likely it will. Olli will probably learn a few things form the Great One.

Second: I don't quite agree with your assessment of Olli as a player. Yes, he has one of the better shots in the game. But I think it's exactly that aspect of his game that makes his other offensive attributes seem average. In fact he is very good in puck possession on the rush, and he's most definitely an above average passer. His offensive game is multidimensional, it's not just a shot. He's a little like Brett Hull, who was also mostly known for his shot and was simultaneously criticized as someone who can't pass, can't skate, can't do anything else.

Think of it this way. If there's one guy who's got a really good shot (but is also a good passer), and another guy who's a good/great passer but with an average shot, who would you rather have make the pass and who would you have take the shot, if you were the coach? That's why the Ollis of the world take the shot and the Stephen Weisses of the world make the pass, if you have a choice. Pretty much a no-brainer.

Olli's weakness and biggest problem is his defense, backchecking and forechecking which are below league average. Basically any time when the other team has the puck. That's why he's a liability - not because he can't pass or hold onto the puck in the offensive zone.
Well, I guess we don't quite agree. I've never been impressed with Olli's playmaking, and again last night he couldn't make good passes to his linemates. People always used to say it was because of the quality of linemates that he had, but I don't buy that. Once in a while he'll make a very good pass, but they are too few and far in between. He's not good at puck possession on the rush, either. He can hold onto the puck and rush it up ice all the way into the offensive zone, but once there where the play slows down and he has opponents converging on him, he's not good at making good dishes to his teammates and not good at stickhandling with the puck too long. It used to frustrate me how he'd usually hold onto it and then skate to the point and either lose it or try to shoot it past 4 people and have it blocked. Also, if his linemates are making several passes through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone to eachother on the rush, he doesn't excel in that type of game. I don't think Brett Hull is a very good comparison. He could play a puck possession game with his linemates, Olli can't.

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10-12-2008, 02:35 PM
  #14
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Well, I guess we don't quite agree. I've never been impressed with Olli's playmaking, and again last night he couldn't make good passes to his linemates. People always used to say it was because of the quality of linemates that he had, but I don't buy that. Once in a while he'll make a very good pass, but they are too few and far in between. He's not good at puck possession on the rush, either. He can hold onto the puck and rush it up ice all the way into the offensive zone, but once there where the play slows down and he has opponents converging on him, he's not good at making good dishes to his teammates and not good at stickhandling with the puck too long. It used to frustrate me how he'd usually hold onto it and then skate to the point and either lose it or try to shoot it past 4 people and have it blocked. Also, if his linemates are making several passes through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone to eachother on the rush, he doesn't excel in that type of game. I don't think Brett Hull is a very good comparison. He could play a puck possession game with his linemates, Olli can't.
I have to agree with MisterBouw on this one. I always felt that Olli was a great shooter, great at carrying the puck into the zone and he had great speed to find the puck. IMO the only pass he was good at was the drop pass when entering the offensive zone. I found that whenever he got the puck, nomatter where he was in the offensive zone he shot at the net(not that it is a bad thing to shoot the puck so often). But i think that this years panthers are a puck possession team that will look for the pass first, in order to get a good quality shot on net. Because of this style of play I think we will be in the offensive zone more often than last year.

I found that when Olli shot the puck from bad angles, it would more often turn into a dead play or a turnover. I think these are the reasons that he never found good linemates, because he would never share the puck.

In all honesty, this trade was good for both teams. I think Jokinen is the type of player that will fit into Wayne Gretzky's style of play, and I also think Jokinen will listen to Waynes advice moreso than he did JM. And I wouldn't doubt if he racks up over 100 points this year.

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10-12-2008, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Well, I guess we don't quite agree. I've never been impressed with Olli's playmaking, and again last night he couldn't make good passes to his linemates. People always used to say it was because of the quality of linemates that he had, but I don't buy that. Once in a while he'll make a very good pass, but they are too few and far in between. He's not good at puck possession on the rush, either. He can hold onto the puck and rush it up ice all the way into the offensive zone, but once there where the play slows down and he has opponents converging on him, he's not good at making good dishes to his teammates and not good at stickhandling with the puck too long. It used to frustrate me how he'd usually hold onto it and then skate to the point and either lose it or try to shoot it past 4 people and have it blocked. Also, if his linemates are making several passes through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone to eachother on the rush, he doesn't excel in that type of game. I don't think Brett Hull is a very good comparison. He could play a puck possession game with his linemates, Olli can't.
No problem, it would be pretty boring if we all had the same opinions and saw the game or players the same way. Anyway, I'm happy about the trade, Ballard is really something, and as another poster said, he outperformed Bouw last night who himself had a very decent game. I especially was impressed with Ballard's smooth skating and roaming (with purpose) on many parts of the ice. Better offensive moves than Bouw, at least over the first couple of games. Shades of Niedermeyer?

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10-12-2008, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by KWGoon View Post
No problem, it would be pretty boring if we all had the same opinions and saw the game or players the same way. Anyway, I'm happy about the trade, Ballard is really something, and as another poster said, he outperformed Bouw last night who himself had a very decent game. I especially was impressed with Ballard's smooth skating and roaming (with purpose) on many parts of the ice. Better offensive moves than Bouw, at least over the first couple of games. Shades of Niedermeyer?
Definitely one of Ballard's best assets is having the ability to start up the rush and how smooth and fast he is, he has a shot, and has intensity and a great hip check, pretty much everything you want in a defenseman, if he can start contributing on the powerplay we will like him just that much more, and no doubt he probably will. Having Jay Bouw, McCabe and Ballard as all puck carrying offensive dmen will help the Panthers' offense so much and it has already shown quite excited about this team, to the point that erm, well jokinen who?

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10-12-2008, 02:47 PM
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I have to agree with MisterBouw on this one. I always felt that Olli was a great shooter, great at carrying the puck into the zone and he had great speed to find the puck. IMO the only pass he was good at was the drop pass when entering the offensive zone. I found that whenever he got the puck, nomatter where he was in the offensive zone he shot at the net(not that it is a bad thing to shoot the puck so often). But i think that this years panthers are a puck possession team that will look for the pass first, in order to get a good quality shot on net. Because of this style of play I think we will be in the offensive zone more often than last year.

I found that when Olli shot the puck from bad angles, it would more often turn into a dead play or a turnover. I think these are the reasons that he never found good linemates, because he would never share the puck.

In all honesty, this trade was good for both teams. I think Jokinen is the type of player that will fit into Wayne Gretzky's style of play, and I also think Jokinen will listen to Waynes advice moreso than he did JM. And I wouldn't doubt if he racks up over 100 points this year.
Regarding the bolded portion, quite frankly it's not true. I can't reproduce the video or highlights but I remember multiple times Olli made some excellent passes when entering the offensive zone. They were to his linemates or to the D. But he also took a lot of ill-advised low angle shots which really suck if you miss because you can easily end up with a 3-on-2 the other way.

I'm not trying to say Olli was a great playmaker, but average passer? I guess I'd have to know what you think "average" in the NHL is first, but he was clearly one of the better passers on the Panthers last season. If you mean average at his pay grade, then you have a point.

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10-12-2008, 03:12 PM
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So to summarize this thread:

1. So far it looks like both teams come out winners in the Jokinen for Ballard, Boytnon & Robak trade.

2. Jokinen has a tremendous shot. His passing, while not a liability, is not his strong suit. His passing is better than average league-wide, but not necessarily what you want out of a first line center. He needs a playmaking winger (who ideally can win faceoffs too) on his line. His defensive play is ... suboptimal. He may put up a bucket load of points if the situation is right. He is not an ideal captain.

3. We really like Ballard... his puck handling...his skating...watching opposing players get levelled by his vicious hip check. Especially the latter

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10-12-2008, 04:38 PM
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Regarding the bolded portion, quite frankly it's not true. I can't reproduce the video or highlights but I remember multiple times Olli made some excellent passes when entering the offensive zone. They were to his linemates or to the D. But he also took a lot of ill-advised low angle shots which really suck if you miss because you can easily end up with a 3-on-2 the other way.

I'm not trying to say Olli was a great playmaker, but average passer? I guess I'd have to know what you think "average" in the NHL is first, but he was clearly one of the better passers on the Panthers last season. If you mean average at his pay grade, then you have a point.
this is a tough one because, like MB said, i've seen him make some jaw dropping passes. like, maybe 2 per year. it's not clear whether he doesn't shoot more because he doesn't trust his teammates, thinks "shot" first or what but he doesn't. it's possible he could be a decent playmaker if he really wanted to be but at this point, he's no more than average. he can skate fairly well but, imo, he's awful at carrying the puck up the ice - really poor decisions and trying to do too much are his downfall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angry_treefrog View Post
So to summarize this thread:

1. So far it looks like both teams come out winners in the Jokinen for Ballard, Boytnon & Robak trade.

2. Jokinen has a tremendous shot. His passing, while not a liability, is not his strong suit. His passing is better than average league-wide, but not necessarily what you want out of a first line center. He needs a playmaking winger (who ideally can win faceoffs too) on his line. His defensive play is ... suboptimal. He may put up a bucket load of points if the situation is right. He is not an ideal captain.

3. We really like Ballard... his puck handling...his skating...watching opposing players get levelled by his vicious hip check. Especially the latter
nice summary, though i think his passing IS a liability when trying carry the puck himself on the PP.

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10-12-2008, 05:07 PM
  #20
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Well I'm glad to hear Olli's working out for the 'Yotes. I know we have a tendency to 'demonize' players who leave us, and I'm as guilty as the next for doing so. I wish nothing but success to Olli.


And I agree...I think it was a win-win trade.

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10-12-2008, 05:09 PM
  #21
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this is a tough one because, like MB said, i've seen him make some jaw dropping passes. like, maybe 2 per year. it's not clear whether he doesn't shoot more because he doesn't trust his teammates, thinks "shot" first or what but he doesn't. it's possible he could be a decent playmaker if he really wanted to be but at this point, he's no more than average. he can skate fairly well but, imo, he's awful at carrying the puck up the ice - really poor decisions and trying to do too much are his downfall.



nice summary, though i think his passing IS a liability when trying carry the puck himself on the PP.
I think his tendency to shoot first is from his days under Keenan. And, mind you, I'm not saying this to place blame.

One of Jokinen's biggest issues early on was struggling with confidence. Iron Mike let him make mistakes and pushed him to carry the responsibility of scoring. I recall Kozlov being the pass-first man when he was lined up with Olli.

And, I agree with KW's assessment regarding Olli's passing skills. I never found him to be below average, and he did come up with several beautiful passes. However, I think that the lack of finish from his linemates caused him to rely on them less and less.

He was, after all, the #1 scoring weapon on this team for several years running. I can't blame him for taking the shot and avoiding the pass.

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10-25-2008, 02:34 AM
  #22
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Good to hear Ballard's made an impression. While the Coyotes fans were excited about getting a #1 centre, everyone hated to see Ballard go. You can probably see why he was considered our future captain. There wasnt enough credit given to Ballard around HF when this trade went down, he was just called a second pairing defenseman when he's more than that.

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10-25-2008, 03:14 AM
  #23
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Ballard is phenomenal. I've been so impressed. I expected a lot but he looks even better than what I thought.

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11-21-2008, 01:41 AM
  #24
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In 17 games with the Coyotes, Olli has 7 goals, 10 assists and +4. Everyone here in Pantherland seems to passionately love the return we got from trading his sorry ass to desert. Sadly, that lovefest hasn't shown in the standings. Panthers are 7-10-1 and probably will miss the playoffs once again.

We made two significant trades in the offseason, and almost everybody in this forum is certain we won both of them. Coach was changed, and all of us think that was an upgrade too. We have a young core of players which should be getting better year by year. So why the hell are we 29th on the NHL? Did we really make all the right decisions?

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11-21-2008, 06:08 AM
  #25
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Dude, have you seriously missed everything said about Olli by people other than Martin? Including the players in the locker room and GMs around the League? He had to go. I'm glad he's doing exactly what he did here, perhaps that'll get him into the playoffs and win him a Cup, but his attitude needed to be jettisoned, deal with it. For the umpteenth time, both parties needed new scenary.

And who said we won the trade? Seems to me that most people are arguing that it's not nearly as lopsided as everyone originally said it was.

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