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11-21-2008, 05:37 AM
  #26
Acadmus
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Exactly. If we'd kept Olli, what would have been different? We'd have two fewer NHL-capable defensemen, which means when Allen and McCabe went down to injuries early on we'd have had to rush Ellerby into the NHL. Maybe someone else, too. And there's no guarantee Olli would have produced similar numbers in Florida - indeed, I think there's a lot of credibility to the notion that he used the Zednik incident as an excuse to tank, at least in March and April.

The trade was the best thing for both teams, apparently. We got a solid defenseman in Ballard, a decent depth defenseman in Boynton, and Phoenix got some more scoring punch. The Panthers needed to add another scorer and didn't, and Allen's injury reduced the benefits of the stronger defense corps by weakening it, but it doesn't make the trade a bad one.

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11-21-2008, 05:58 AM
  #27
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For a team that's 29th in the standings, we sure have made a lot of very good decisions.

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11-21-2008, 06:46 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
For a team that's 29th in the standings, we sure have made a lot of very good decisions.
Yeah, Olli always helped us get WAY above that mark.

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11-21-2008, 07:13 AM
  #29
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What mark are you referring to? The 68 points mark we are destined this season after these brilliant trades?

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11-21-2008, 07:28 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
What mark are you referring to? The 68 points mark we are destined this season after these brilliant trades?
The 29th in the standings mark. You're so focused on Olli, what exactly do you think he would or could have done? Especially considering what's come out about him, have you missed all that, or just chosen to completely ignore it?

McCabe looks like a "bad" trade? The type of player that Ballard exhibits himself to be was a poor choice to put on this team?

You keep coming in with these remarks, but there's a much larger picture in place that you just seem to ignore. McCabe, Ballard, and Boynton aren't the problems. They're solutions. Again, Allen's injury severely hurts the defense, but it shouldn't be as crippled as it is. Is not having Olli here the reason why the defense is struggling?

The offense isn't doing what Martin felt it could do. Is not having Olli here the reason that some of the talented guys aren't living up to their capabilities, especially the players with abilities that helped them get drafted high?

Or, could it also be that having Olli here for so long possibly hurt things more than they helped? While I don't think that's true, I don't think he lived up to the expectations of a captain, either. Especially with it coming out that there were "cliques" in the room.

Possible to have you answer some of tose questions...?

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11-21-2008, 07:30 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
Exactly. If we'd kept Olli, what would have been different? We'd have two fewer NHL-capable defensemen, which means when Allen and McCabe went down to injuries early on we'd have had to rush Ellerby into the NHL. Maybe someone else, too. And there's no guarantee Olli would have produced similar numbers in Florida - indeed, I think there's a lot of credibility to the notion that he used the Zednik incident as an excuse to tank, at least in March and April.

The trade was the best thing for both teams, apparently. We got a solid defenseman in Ballard, a decent depth defenseman in Boynton, and Phoenix got some more scoring punch. The Panthers needed to add another scorer and didn't, and Allen's injury reduced the benefits of the stronger defense corps by weakening it, but it doesn't make the trade a bad one.
No, the McCabe trade negated the NEED to get two blueliners for Jokinen. As far as the early injuries, it wouldn't have meant rushing Ellerby but meant an earlier signing of Cullimore and Welch getting some significant minutes rather than the five he ended up getting. The Jokinen trade only made sense then and remains the only way it makes sense as a PRELUDE to a trade of Bouwmeester for a scoring line center. Otherwise there was NO NEED to trade your only true scoring line center to add two defensemen. Unfortunately, it appears JM has waited too long for that other shoe to drop as Bouwmeesters value has dropped due to his relatively poor play and his edging ever closer to free agency. JM has dropped the ball if he was determined to make that Jokinen deal since it should have been immediately followed by a Bouwmeester trade and this isn't Monday Morning Quarterbacking. Advocates of an early JAYBO trade were plentyful on this site and the question that should be asked is if we could see it, why couldn't JM?

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11-21-2008, 08:35 AM
  #32
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The whopping 2 more points Olli has helped Phoenix gain are a REAL big difference....

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11-21-2008, 08:39 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
The 29th in the standings mark. You're so focused on Olli, what exactly do you think he would or could have done? Especially considering what's come out about him, have you missed all that, or just chosen to completely ignore it?

McCabe looks like a "bad" trade? The type of player that Ballard exhibits himself to be was a poor choice to put on this team?

You keep coming in with these remarks, but there's a much larger picture in place that you just seem to ignore. McCabe, Ballard, and Boynton aren't the problems. They're solutions. Again, Allen's injury severely hurts the defense, but it shouldn't be as crippled as it is. Is not having Olli here the reason why the defense is struggling?

The offense isn't doing what Martin felt it could do. Is not having Olli here the reason that some of the talented guys aren't living up to their capabilities, especially the players with abilities that helped them get drafted high?

Or, could it also be that having Olli here for so long possibly hurt things more than they helped? While I don't think that's true, I don't think he lived up to the expectations of a captain, either. Especially with it coming out that there were "cliques" in the room.

Possible to have you answer some of tose questions...?
So Olli is the reason we haven't been in the playoffs in the past, and this season we are even worse because Olli managed to ruin every young player in the organisation?


Last edited by Acadmus: 11-21-2008 at 08:47 AM. Reason: trolling
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11-21-2008, 08:46 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
No, the McCabe trade negated the NEED to get two blueliners for Jokinen.
You're kidding, right?

First of all, I think you're expecting too much from Welch. Pittsburgh's defense isn't exactly deep, and Welch still couldn't crack it as a regular when we picked him up. He was already 24 then, and people in Pittsburgh were beginning to doubt his prospects for making the big leagues as a regular. Even in Florida he couldn't crack a regular spot prior to his injuries - he's always been in the 6th man rotation. This season he's been forced into the lineup due to Allen and McCabe being injured (and moreso since Cory Murphy's been injured) and yet now, with McCabe back and Cullimore signed, he's still been the healthy scratch regularly. It strongly suggests he's not quite up to the job.

So our defense without picking up Ballard and Boynton: JBo (who's likely to leave no later than the season's end), McCabe, Skrastins, Allen (who's injured), Murphy (who's injured), Cullimore (who's possibly injured now), Welch and then Ellerby as our one halfway competent AHL callup. In other words, without that deal we'd have a weak defense just like last season, and to make matters worse we'd be scrambling to fill roster spots due to all the injuries. We'd have 4 NHL caliber defensemen, one of whom is barely so, and two minor league callups manning our blueline...and likely the team would have to trade someone for a rent-a-blueliner anyway.

So I ask again: What would be different? Sorry, GP, but you're dead wrong on this one.

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11-21-2008, 08:48 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
The whopping 2 more points Olli has helped Phoenix gain are a REAL big difference....
Well, they have played one game less than us and are going towards an 82 point season. At least they have a shot of reaching the postseason.

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11-21-2008, 08:48 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
So Olli is the reason we haven't been in the playoffs in the past, and this season we are even worse because Olli managed to ruin every young player in the organisation?


Seriously? lol, where'd I say any of that? C'mon.


Last edited by Acadmus: 11-21-2008 at 08:49 AM. Reason: quoted deleted content
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11-21-2008, 08:51 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
Well, they have played one game less than us and are going towards an 82 point season. At least they have a shot of reaching the postseason.
The Panthers missed the playoffs by quite a bit with more points than that. I wouldn't bet Phoenix makes it on 82 points. If they pick up and manage 92, they've got a shot...not 82.

But, frankly, I don't see this as a "they're better for getting one player than we are for getting two" comparison. I merely say again...if we hadn't traded, what would have been different? This team would NOT be doing better. Worse, if anything, as the defense would be two players weaker and one player's offense won't make up for that.

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11-21-2008, 08:53 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
So Olli is the reason we haven't been in the playoffs in the past, and this season we are even worse because Olli managed to ruin every young player in the organisation?
The more I hear about this Olli Jokinen, the more I wonder, "who is the real Olli Jokinen?" The more I hear about him, the more he seems like some twisted cult leader. He has connections to some twisted evil drug crazed fin named Jere Karalahti, he prefers losing to winning, and he has of late been rumored to have been a subversive influence on the younger population of South Florida.

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11-21-2008, 08:55 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
Well, they have played one game less than us and are going towards an 82 point season. At least they have a shot of reaching the postseason.
85 points is a shot at the playoffs? lol, right now they're only 2 points ahead of the Panthers and have problems of their own. Weak "arguments" to bolster your stance, whatever that may be.

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11-21-2008, 08:55 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
The Panthers missed the playoffs by quite a bit with more points than that. I wouldn't bet Phoenix makes it on 82 points. If they pick up and manage 92, they've got a shot...not 82.

But, frankly, I don't see this as a "they're better for getting one player than we are for getting two" comparison. I merely say again...if we hadn't traded, what would have been different? This team would NOT be doing better. Worse, if anything, as the defense would be two players weaker and one player's offense won't make up for that.
Would someone please answer my original question: If JM didn't make any mistakes during the offseason, why are we a worse team than last season?

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11-21-2008, 08:57 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
Would someone please answer my original question: If JM didn't make any mistakes during the offseason, why are we a worse team than last season?
You didn't ask a question originally - you opened this thread to sing Olli Jokinen's praises.

And I can't say he didn't make any mistakes this offseason - he made at least one by not addressing the lack of an impact scorer. The same mistake he, Keenan, and Dudley made for the past 7 years. And Olli wasn't it - we even needed one when Olli was at his best. Olli's pretty much a one-trick pony when it comes to scoring. Very good at that trick, but can't always pull it off.

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11-21-2008, 08:58 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
The more I hear about this Olli Jokinen, the more I wonder, "who is the real Olli Jokinen?" The more I hear about him, the more he seems like some twisted cult leader. He has connections to some twisted evil drug crazed fin named Jere Karalahti, he prefers losing to winning, and he has of late been rumored to have been a subversive influence on the younger population of South Florida.
According to GR, Belak, Olesz, Gillis, and Sutter...just to name a few. Amazing what goes on behind closed doors.

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11-21-2008, 09:00 AM
  #43
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Would someone please answer my original question: If JM didn't make any mistakes during the offseason, why are we a worse team than last season?
Who's said he didn't make any mistakes? You're not seeing what anyone's saying. As Race just said, you opened this thread to sing praise about Olli, who wouldn't have changed much of what's going on. (Also, when pointed out that he didn't do much the previous seasons, you bring up that he's not the only player on the team. Is he or isn't he?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
You didn't ask a question originally - you opened this thread to sing Olli Jokinen's praises.
Exactly.

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11-21-2008, 09:02 AM
  #44
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Would someone please answer my original question: If JM didn't make any mistakes during the offseason, why are we a worse team than last season?
Hmm... you have to get worserer to get betterer. Sounds simple enough right?

I think it's just a simple case of JM expecting our younger forwards to carry more of the load; Rusty Olesz and the gang. They haven't really showed up this year, and injuries are plentiful, thus this team finds itself in a bad spot. I was weary about this team being healthy this year, and have been proven right. You can call it a fluke, but injury prone players happen to get injured more often than not; and when they do, they aren't the best at playing through them.

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11-21-2008, 09:05 AM
  #45
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Panthers 2007-2008 85 points
Coyotes 2007-2008 83 points

Blockbuster trade during the offseason.

Panthers 2008-2009 68 points
Coyotes 2008-2009 82 points

What a steal !

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11-21-2008, 09:06 AM
  #46
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Would someone please answer my original question: If JM didn't make any mistakes during the offseason, why are we a worse team than last season?
the answer is simple - this team is NOT worse. you are making a premature judgment. certain players (ahem... NATE) have to find a way to step up and lead a bit up front and, certainly, the type of defense it seems (haven't been watching the past 2 weeks) we are playing is not what i had expected but there have been positive signs in many of the games despite the injuries, new personnel and coach. i hope we'll see some more improvement by the halfway point

there is no doubt in my mind that this is a better team than last year's team, even if they somehow end up with less points at the end of the year.

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11-21-2008, 09:07 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
Panthers 2007-2008 85 points
Coyotes 2007-2008 83 points

Blockbuster trade during the offseason.

Panthers 2008-2009 68 points
Coyotes 2008-2009 82 points

What a steal !
you aren't giving up, are you? this means absolutely nothing. we're less than 1/4 through the season and even if you throw this season out, i still like our team better after the trade.

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11-21-2008, 09:12 AM
  #48
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You THINKING this is a better team than last year's version means absolutely nothing. Imaginary points don't count.

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11-21-2008, 09:13 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
Panthers 2007-2008 85 points
Coyotes 2007-2008 83 points

Blockbuster trade during the offseason.

Panthers 2008-2009 68 points
Coyotes 2008-2009 82 points

What a steal !
I'm sorry - did the Coyotes suffer a string of injuries to key players to start the season, too? Well, then - your point is made.

The Panthers would be set to get just 68 points regardless given everything that's happened. Again...what's different? Even without mitigating circumstances, you've just proven that both teams can expect to be worse or the same this year. Olli isn't saving Phoenix, and Ballard and Boynton aren't saving the day in Florida. Of course, the picture might be different if we'd had our planned top 6 on defense throughout this point in the season. And as I've said, it would have been much MUCH worse if we didn't have Boynton and Ballard to cover those injured defensemen.

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11-21-2008, 09:14 AM
  #50
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You THINKING this is a better team than last year's version means absolutely nothing. Imaginary points don't count.
Umm...You've just given Florida and Phoenix imaginary points by projecting season ending totals trying to support an argument. Then you're saying imaginary points don't count.

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