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Old
11-21-2008, 10:17 AM
  #51
Georgia Panther
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
You're kidding, right?

First of all, I think you're expecting too much from Welch. Pittsburgh's defense isn't exactly deep, and Welch still couldn't crack it as a regular when we picked him up. He was already 24 then, and people in Pittsburgh were beginning to doubt his prospects for making the big leagues as a regular. Even in Florida he couldn't crack a regular spot prior to his injuries - he's always been in the 6th man rotation. This season he's been forced into the lineup due to Allen and McCabe being injured (and moreso since Cory Murphy's been injured) and yet now, with McCabe back and Cullimore signed, he's still been the healthy scratch regularly. It strongly suggests he's not quite up to the job.

So our defense without picking up Ballard and Boynton: JBo (who's likely to leave no later than the season's end), McCabe, Skrastins, Allen (who's injured), Murphy (who's injured), Cullimore (who's possibly injured now), Welch and then Ellerby as our one halfway competent AHL callup. In other words, without that deal we'd have a weak defense just like last season, and to make matters worse we'd be scrambling to fill roster spots due to all the injuries. We'd have 4 NHL caliber defensemen, one of whom is barely so, and two minor league callups manning our blueline...and likely the team would have to trade someone for a rent-a-blueliner anyway.

So I ask again: What would be different? Sorry, GP, but you're dead wrong on this one.
I think you should discount the possibility of future injuries in regards to this particular trade. Injuries may or may not happen and if they didn't happen the Panthers would have been fine on the blueline with the additions of Mccabe and Cullimore replacing the additions of Ballard and Boynton but you would also have the services of a point a game center Jokinen. In making the trade of Jokinen, it was a certainty that player and his production at that position, scoring line center, would have to be replaced, not potentially lost through injury. So what you have, bottom line, is replacements for the additions of Ballard and Boynton through a possible Jokinen trade were available and acquired, but a replacement for Jokinen in the event of a Jokinen trade was not, at least as of yet. Again, the trade of Jokinen to Phoenix for that return ONLY MADE SENSE if it was followed by a Bouwmeester trade for Jokinen's replacement. And that trade should have been made sooner than latter, as many of us argued at the time, as Bouwmeester's trade value has diminished by the day. JM has dropped the ball unless he is able to acquire a Jokinen replacement with a Bouwmeester trade.

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11-21-2008, 10:17 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
I'm sorry - did the Coyotes suffer a string of injuries to key players to start the season, too? Well, then - your point is made.
Panthers didn't have injuries last season?

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11-21-2008, 10:23 AM
  #53
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I should add, if you wanted JM to stay as GM, and you know where I stand on that subject, then Jokinen certainly needed to be traded but traded for another scoring line center, not Ballard and Boynton.

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11-21-2008, 10:26 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
I should add, if you wanted JM to stay as GM, and you know where I stand on that subject, then Jokinen certainly needed to be traded but traded for another scoring line center, not Ballard and Boynton.
Agreed. As much as I like Ballard and think he's a capable replacement for Bouwmeester, we're still giving up way too many shots a game and now our scoring is down which = last place in the eastern conference.

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11-21-2008, 10:32 AM
  #55
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I don't see how people don't understand JM has a plan. He fixed the goaltending in his first off season, fixed the defense in his second -- so why the hell wouldn't you think he's going to fix the offense in his third off season?

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11-21-2008, 10:34 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
Again, the trade of Jokinen to Phoenix for that return ONLY MADE SENSE if it was followed by a Bouwmeester trade for Jokinen's replacement. And that trade should have been made sooner than latter, as many of us argued at the time, as Bouwmeester's trade value has diminished by the day. JM has dropped the ball unless he is able to acquire a Jokinen replacement with a Bouwmeester trade.
I agree with your assesment of making both trades. It's that old spite your horse's nose to save your dog's left leg, or however it goes. HoweverI think this team should have forseen some injuries. They started the year with players with a history of injury problems. Two key forwards JM was depending on to replace Olli have been fragile at best over the past few years: Olesz (missed over 20 games in two of his first 3 seasons), Weiss (missed 57 games over the last 3 years). Then they have the older guys who are pretty much expected to be in and out of the line-up with nagging injuries all year.

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11-21-2008, 10:35 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
You THINKING this is a better team than last year's version means absolutely nothing. Imaginary points don't count.
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
Umm...You've just given Florida and Phoenix imaginary points by projecting season ending totals trying to support an argument. Then you're saying imaginary points don't count.
What he said. If you don't want to talk in imaginary points or how Olli wasn't the only reason for reason for us missing the playoffs, but he's the reason we're not in the hunt now, then deal with our "imaginary" talk.

The reality is that whatever logic you're using is flawed, or just plain non-existent.

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11-21-2008, 10:36 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
I don't see how people don't understand JM has a plan. He fixed the goaltending in his first off season, fixed the defense in his second -- so why the hell wouldn't you think he's going to fix the offense in his third off season?
So the defense is fixed, huh?

And it will even be more fixed once Bouwmeester leaves, right?

JM's plan must be a lot like Nixon's plan to end the Vietnam War in 1968!!!

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11-21-2008, 10:39 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
What he said. If you don't want to talk in imaginary points or how Olli wasn't the only reason for reason for us missing the playoffs, but he's the reason we're not in the hunt now, then deal with our "imaginary" talk.

The reality is that whatever logic you're using is flawed, or just plain non-existent.
So you really are saying Olli is the reason we're not in the playoff hunt now?

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11-21-2008, 10:40 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
So the defense is fixed, huh?

And it will even be more fixed once Bouwmeester leaves, right?

JM's plan must be a lot like Nixon's plan to end the Vietnam War in 1968!!!
Yes, the defense is fixed. We have allowed the 7th least goals against and that is with our defense admittingly struggling at times to adjust.

Don't even go and say it's our goaltending that is keeping that number down cause they've given up as many easy goals as they've allowed. Not until the last week have I been happy with our goaltending.

Our defense will still be decent without Bouwmeester and you've said this before yourself (in your pleads to trade him for a forward), so don't even go there.

BTW, what happened to your 20 game minimum for analyzing the team? Sure jumped that gun huh?

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11-21-2008, 10:43 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
So the defense is fixed, huh?

And it will even be more fixed once Bouwmeester leaves, right?

JM's plan must be a lot like Nixon's plan to end the Vietnam War in 1968!!!
And with the way Vokoun looks after certain games, I can't see him sticking around for too long. That's what I don't get about this 3 step plan stuff:

We fixed the goaltending and defense, now it's time to think about scoring a few goals every now and then. Wait where are you going Jay? I know you're sick of losing, b'bb'b'but we'll be good next year I promise.

Gm's in this league have to address every aspect of the game. It's pretty simple. A plumber has to know how to deal with copper and cpvc. A carpenter has to know how to use a screw and a nail.

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11-21-2008, 10:44 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by FlaPanthers7 View Post
Agreed. As much as I like Ballard and think he's a capable replacement for Bouwmeester, we're still giving up way too many shots a game and now our scoring is down which = last place in the eastern conference.
Ballard: Tenacious checker, fast puck mover, great shot, tons of heart. Stood in front of the empty net and saved the puck because he didn't want any more goals scored.

Boynton: Has had lapses, but he's willing to protect the goalie and has been better than most of us expected.

McCabe: Great shot from the point, agressive, plays the body, great passer and puck mover. Also stood in front of the same empty net, took a puck to the chops, stayed in to make another save.

I'll take those guys over a guy who tried to get Martin fired by tanking the season, which has pretty well been confirmed.

It's not those guys' fault that Horton, Olesz, Weiss, and Zednik can't bury the puck and do what they've been asked. They're the scorers on this team.

I'm more than happy with all 3 players and wouldn't change anything. Sure, we'd all like to have had Spezza back, but a) that didn't come close to happening and Gillis and Sutter's comments are evidence as to why we didn't get possible a bit more, and b) the guys we have should be putting the puck in the net.

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11-21-2008, 10:48 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
Yes, the defense is fixed. We have allowed the 7th least goals against and that is with our defense admittingly struggling at times to adjust.

Don't even go and say it's our goaltending that is keeping that number down cause they've given up as many easy goals as they've allowed. Not until the last week have I been happy with our goaltending.

Our defense will still be decent without Bouwmeester and you've said this before yourself (in your pleads to trade him for a forward), so don't even go there.

BTW, what happened to your 20 game minimum for analyzing the team? Sure jumped that gun huh?
Stay tuned for my thread, THE VERDICT, after the 20 game mark, in which I will keep my JM bashing to a minimun, has to be some however or it wouldn't be me, and simply concentrate on the numbers between this season's team and last season to see if things are better, worse or more of the same. Since I haven't crunched the numbers yet, I don't know how it will come out at this point.

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11-21-2008, 10:48 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
I agree with your assesment of making both trades. It's that old spite your horse's nose to save your dog's left leg, or however it goes. HoweverI think this team should have forseen some injuries. They started the year with players with a history of injury problems. Two key forwards JM was depending on to replace Olli have been fragile at best over the past few years: Olesz (missed over 20 games in two of his first 3 seasons), Weiss (missed 57 games over the last 3 years). Then they have the older guys who are pretty much expected to be in and out of the line-up with nagging injuries all year.
no, no - that's not the way to look at it. or that's not how JM was looking at it. we still have a lot of young unknowns up front but we have some decent upside there. meanwhile, we had NO defensive depth and we needed to get much better defensively. imo, it made a lot of sense to go the distance and put together a top notch D when the opportunity presented itself (again, we don't know the deals that were on the table...) and continue the process of applying good quality patches up front until the picture is a little clearer. there is sound logic there and it still may pan out. we just need more than we're getting from a few guys, as you pointed out.

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11-21-2008, 10:49 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Ballard: Tenacious checker, fast puck mover, great shot, tons of heart. Stood in front of the empty net and saved the puck because he didn't want any more goals scored.

Boynton: Has had lapses, but he's willing to protect the goalie and has been better than most of us expected.

McCabe: Great shot from the point, agressive, plays the body, great passer and puck mover. Also stood in front of the same empty net, took a puck to the chops, stayed in to make another save.

I'll take those guys over a guy who tried to get Martin fired by tanking the season, which has pretty well been confirmed.

It's not those guys' fault that Horton, Olesz, Weiss, and Zednik can't bury the puck and do what they've been asked. They're the scorers on this team.

I'm more than happy with all 3 players and wouldn't change anything. Sure, we'd all like to have had Spezza back, but a) that didn't come close to happening and Gillis and Sutter's comments are evidence as to why we didn't get possible a bit more, and b) the guys we have should be putting the puck in the net.
Didn't know McCabe was part of the Jokinen deal.

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11-21-2008, 10:49 AM
  #66
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Here Kaptah, this is from Murph's trip out to Phoenix last week with the team. And GP.

Quote:
I spoke with several season-ticket holders in the arena, and every single one of them said they would rather still have Ballard and Boynton. I’m sure they will warm up to Olli, but their feeling through this point in the season is that they gave up too much for what they got in return. Said another way, they think we got the better end of the deal.
http://panthers.nhl.com/team/app?art...e&service=page

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11-21-2008, 10:50 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
Umm...You've just given Florida and Phoenix imaginary points by projecting season ending totals trying to support an argument. Then you're saying imaginary points don't count.
beautiful, absolutely beautiful!

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11-21-2008, 10:52 AM
  #68
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Didn't know McCabe was part of the Jokinen deal.
You were talking about the trades earlier... Since we were talking about Martin's doings and all, that you brought up.

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11-21-2008, 10:53 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
And with the way Vokoun looks after certain games, I can't see him sticking around for too long. That's what I don't get about this 3 step plan stuff:

We fixed the goaltending and defense, now it's time to think about scoring a few goals every now and then. Wait where are you going Jay? I know you're sick of losing, b'bb'b'but we'll be good next year I promise.

Gm's in this league have to address every aspect of the game. It's pretty simple. A plumber has to know how to deal with copper and cpvc. A carpenter has to know how to use a screw and a nail.
Vokoun will be 34 when his contract expires -- in 2 years . That's why we drafted Markstrom.

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11-21-2008, 10:58 AM
  #70
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Vokoun will be 34 when his contract expires -- in 2 years . That's why we drafted Markstrom.
I'd wait for him to get to the states before counting on him for too much. Just about every team in this league has a prospect who could be a solid #1 guy in net some day. But playing with a 21 or 22 year old goalie in net isn't always the most sound move to make.

And I could easily see Vokoun retiring after this contract, but who knows really. I could see quite a few teams interested in a 34 year old solid goalteder. It's not like he'll be 40+.

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11-21-2008, 11:25 AM
  #71
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I'm not saying anything about how all the players involved are playing now. I will just ask the following, "Was this the only deal that could be made?", "Were there any other teams interested and what were they offering?", and "Was it really the best time to deal Olli given he was coming off a less-than-normal yr for him?"

Also, I'm in agreement with others that are asking...why does it take 3 yrs to turn a team around? Teams like Boston and Philly have done it in less time (1-2 seasons). At least if the team was making gains, like Chicago has, that would be different but I guess staying a mediocre team for as long as FL has really does make it harder to turn a team around. Maybe it was JM's plan to stink enough this yr to speed up that turn around I suppose.

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11-21-2008, 11:29 AM
  #72
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Maybe it was JM's plan to stink enough this yr to speed up that turn around I suppose.
I doubt it. He will probably be fired if they stink it up that much. Cohen doesn't have the temperment to keep around a loser for that long. He doesn't mind a loser, as long as he can be made to believe said loser can fix things up in a couple of years.

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11-21-2008, 11:29 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
You don't want to talk, you want to argue, and you're really not going anywhere. Again, Olli did nothing while he was here, how would he suddenly have us in contention? What point are you possibly trying to make?
It really is pointless to argue with you guys. If you really think JM made this team better during the offseason, and are not bothered to be last in the conference, what can I say. Don't wanna spoil your party with reality.

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11-21-2008, 11:33 AM
  #74
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It really is pointless to argue with you guys. If you really think JM made this team better during the offseason, and are not bothered to be last in the conference, what can I say. Don't wanna spoil your party with reality.
But...you're not being realistic. What's your reality? That Olli was the savious and we traded away Jesus? Because that's all your offering, even in the face of the exact opposite.

Where'd you get that noone's bothered? Where'd you get most of what you say? Did you not see, or just continue to completely ignore, that I siad that I like the trade but the guys that are here need to do what they're here for?

Olli's not the end-all-be-all that you're making him out to be in this thread. He was the opposite here. You're really not showing reality, or making any real point. I'm all for debating, if there's something to actually debate.

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11-21-2008, 11:42 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
I'm not saying anything about how all the players involved are playing now. I will just ask the following, "Was this the only deal that could be made?", "Were there any other teams interested and what were they offering?", and "Was it really the best time to deal Olli given he was coming off a less-than-normal yr for him?"
It's stupid to try to answer the first two questions. Anyone who thinks they know the answer is, well, stupid, because we have absolutely no idea what was going on. As for the last question, yes, it was the right time to trade him. You don't keep around a player who tried to get the coach/GM fired by playing like crap--you just don't.

Quote:
Also, I'm in agreement with others that are asking...why does it take 3 yrs to turn a team around? Teams like Boston and Philly have done it in less time (1-2 seasons). At least if the team was making gains, like Chicago has, that would be different but I guess staying a mediocre team for as long as FL has really does make it harder to turn a team around. Maybe it was JM's plan to stink enough this yr to speed up that turn around I suppose.
Because those teams weren't constantly switching the GM and coach and didn't have terrible prospect pools. Comparisons like that are pointless because the Panthers history with the things I mentioned is piss poor. Also, I'm guessing players are a bit more willing to go to Boston or Philly over the Panthers. And even then, those teams have to dish out a lot of money.

Is it any coincidence that all of Zednik, Dvorak and Peltonen are free agents next year? It kind of goes along with the "3-year-plan" theory. They were stop-gaps, nothing more. Maybe it isn't ideal from the fans point of view after seeing your team miss the playoffs for a decade, but it makes sense from a managerial point of view.

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