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11-21-2008, 10:44 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
I'm not saying anything about how all the players involved are playing now. I will just ask the following, "Was this the only deal that could be made?", "Were there any other teams interested and what were they offering?", and "Was it really the best time to deal Olli given he was coming off a less-than-normal yr for him?"

Also, I'm in agreement with others that are asking...why does it take 3 yrs to turn a team around? Teams like Boston and Philly have done it in less time (1-2 seasons). At least if the team was making gains, like Chicago has, that would be different but I guess staying a mediocre team for as long as FL has really does make it harder to turn a team around. Maybe it was JM's plan to stink enough this yr to speed up that turn around I suppose.
Ahh, come on Coolburn, you know better than that!

Philly and Boston?!? Let's take Philly for example:

They had valuable assets to trade to help their rebuild (Zhitnik, Forsberg, etc.). This rebuild that started 8 years ago saw us trade our most valuable assets for crap (Bure, Whitney, Kozlov, etc.).

They were able to turn it around because they had valuable assets to dump/trade to make it happen.

If you want to find a team who is rebuilding better than us and was in a similar situation as us, look at Los Angeles, not Philly and Boston.

Also, I know you're high on (or at least friendly with) Scott Luce, but those teams have another thing in common -- they all draft a HELL of a lot better than us. Boston with Krejci, Bergeron, Lucic -- all 2nd round picks that are playing great hockey. Meanwhile, the Panthers have one second rounder...

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11-21-2008, 10:45 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
But...you're not being realistic. What's your reality? That Olli was the savious and we traded away Jesus? Because that's all your offering, even in the face of the exact opposite.

Where'd you get that noone's bothered? Where'd you get most of what you say? Did you not see, or just continue to completely ignore, that I siad that I like the trade but the guys that are here need to do what they're here for?

Olli's not the end-all-be-all that you're making him out to be in this thread. He was the opposite here. You're really not showing reality, or making any real point. I'm all for debating, if there's something to actually debate.
Talk about neither of you arguing the facts and resorting to extremes. Olli wasn't the saviour of this team or any team, but he wasn't the cancerous player some people want to make him out to be. He moved on, this team moved on, enough already really. He was the all time leading scorer here in Florida, now he isn't here.

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11-21-2008, 10:51 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
Talk about neither of you arguing the facts and resorting to extremes. Olli wasn't the saviour of this team or any team, but he wasn't the cancerous player some people want to make him out to be. He moved on, this team moved on, enough already really. He was the all time leading scorer here in Florida, now he isn't here.
sigh...Belak, Olesz, and Richards all talked about cliques in the locker room, that the captain started. There was no cohesion and he was a major player in that. He was the captain.

Noone's saying he was the iceberg for this TItanic, but he hurt things a lot more than he helped. As I said, you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I really don't know how anyone's arguing this when (again), the players, coaches, reporters, the owner, and other GMs have all touched on it. They're ALL lying? None of them are accurate?

I'm tired of arguing about it, I don't hate Olli, but for the upteenth time (again) it was more than obvious that a change in scenary was needed.

So, where did I not talk about facts? Or "resort to extremems"? The people I mentioned are all doing that then?

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Old
11-21-2008, 10:53 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
It really is pointless to argue with you guys. If you really think JM made this team better during the offseason, and are not bothered to be last in the conference, what can I say. Don't wanna spoil your party with reality.
You're dealing with hypotheticals and calling it reality. There's a big difference. You think the team would have been better than it is if Olli were still on the team. You don't know it for a fact. Phoenix has them and whereas they're not worse, they also aren't better. At all. And they probably - being an older franchise - had the depth on defense to absorb the loss of Ballard (Boynton's a non-issue since they waived him last season trying to shed his salary anyway). So for them it was a gain. For the Panthers, it was a boost to the defense at the cost of offense that the team was hoping would be made up for by improvement of young players and the addition of talented rookies. That was a pretty thin hope, but the defense is most certainly better when healthy, even if the offense has sucked. The team is back to its usual .500 pace with McCabe back in the lineup, and Ballard and McCabe are amongst the team's leading scorers. Problem is there was too much reliance not so much on some players to pick up their games, but for certain others to maintain their games. Zednik, Peltonen, Dvorak, and McLean aren't putting up the effort expected from them, and are doing worse than last season. Horton coasted as usual instead of being ready to go out of the gate as it was hoped promoting him to #1 center would do...and add to that he's learning a position he hasn't played at the NHL level before. Olesz also seems to have taken a step backward in his development, and Frolik seems to only now be learning how to play an offensive game as a rookie. Booth has been streaky, but I'd chalk that up to his being about the only credible offensive threat out there and other teams know it.

So, hypothetically speaking, if Olli were back on the team? He'd be #1 center, Horton would still coast, his linemates would still suck (since we wouldn't have signed Stillman, doubtless, who's - again - injured anyway). He'd be losing all the critical faceoffs like always, and he'd score anytime teams forgot to not let him into the left faceoff circle with the puck. So what's the point again? And GP, I get your point - I just think it's wrong, so we'll have to just agree to disagree on that one.

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11-21-2008, 11:05 AM
  #80
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By the way, if we split the next two games, score 7 goals and allow 8, we'll have the same stats in points, goals scored and goals allowed as last season.

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11-21-2008, 11:24 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
By the way, if we split the next two games, score 7 goals and allow 8, we'll have the same stats in points, goals scored and goals allowed as last season.
And if that happens, Kaptah's argument gets weaker as it'll mean the trade was a wash for both teams.

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11-21-2008, 12:14 PM
  #82
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It will also mean another year, so far, of non-improvement by the Panthers under martin.

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11-21-2008, 12:31 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
And if that happens, Kaptah's argument gets weaker as it'll mean the trade was a wash for both teams.
You're dealing with hypotheticals and calling it reality I'll shut up for now, let's see how the situation develops. There's still time to turn things around, maybe having both McCabe and Stilman in the action will make this a winning team.

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11-21-2008, 01:15 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
You're dealing with hypotheticals and calling it reality I'll shut up for now, let's see how the situation develops. There's still time to turn things around, maybe having both McCabe and Stilman in the action will make this a winning team.
You're the one who was using projections as an argument.

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11-21-2008, 01:15 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
You're dealing with hypotheticals and calling it reality
I didn't call it reality...otherwise that would have been a really good zinger

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Old
11-21-2008, 02:59 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
sigh...Belak, Olesz, and Richards all talked about cliques in the locker room, that the captain started. There was no cohesion and he was a major player in that. He was the captain.

So, where did I not talk about facts? Or "resort to extremems"? The people I mentioned are all doing that then?
You claim he is trying to represent Olli as a savior, while stating that Olli never did anything while he was here. It's nothing to really sigh about, as you have already explained your position repeatedly.

As for Belak, Olesz, and GR, I consider the source. You have a guy who needs a story, a kid who wants to have more of a role on the team, and a borderline player who showed up for a month and a half of last season and seems to be content playing on any NHL team. I never heard anything from players who have been here for a while, or who have also really taken on a leadership role on this team. If Neiwy, Roberts, Allen, Bouwmeester, Vokoun, Horton, or any number of other key players had said something about Olli, I'd grant it more merit.

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11-21-2008, 03:10 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
You claim he is trying to represent Olli as a savior, while stating that Olli never did anything while he was here. It's nothing to really sigh about, as you have already explained your position repeatedly.

As for Belak, Olesz, and GR, I consider the source. You have a guy who needs a story, a kid who wants to have more of a role on the team, and a borderline player who showed up for a month and a half of last season and seems to be content playing on any NHL team. I never heard anything from players who have been here for a while, or who have also really taken on a leadership role on this team. If Neiwy, Roberts, Allen, Bouwmeester, Vokoun, Horton, or any number of other key players had said something about Olli, I'd grant it more merit.
Wrong. I'm saying that while Olli was here, things weren't a whole lot better than they currently are. He's not claiming Olli to be a saviour??? Where did I say Olli "never did anything" while he was here? Hmmm, that would be foolish, however, the team went nowhere while he was here.

Kinda funny that all 3 spoke to different people with the same story. What're Gillis and Sutter's motivations for speaking aloud? To save face? Who's Gillis' goalie? Belak can't in a very short time notice the reality of the locker room? Your reasoning behind Olesz's motivation is laughable, I'm sorry.

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11-21-2008, 03:23 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Wrong. I'm saying that while Olli was here, things weren't a whole lot better than they currently are. He's not claiming Olli to be a saviour??? Where did I say Olli "never did anything" while he was here? Hmmm, that would be foolish, however, the team went nowhere while he was here.

Kinda funny that all 3 spoke to different people with the same story. What're Gillis and Sutter's motivations for speaking aloud? To save face? Who's Gillis' goalie? Belak can't in a very short time notice the reality of the locker room? Your reasoning behind Olesz's motivation is laughable, I'm sorry.
Glad to make you laugh, Professor.

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11-21-2008, 03:30 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
Glad to make you laugh, Professor.
That's all you have for the questions sent your way?

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11-21-2008, 03:38 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
That's all you have for the questions sent your way?
Were those serious questions?

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11-21-2008, 03:41 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
Were those serious questions?
lol...uh, if you were serious that all those people with the same story have the same thing to say. (Yes, they were serious, you can't discount all that.)

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11-21-2008, 03:50 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Kinda funny that all 3 spoke to different people with the same story. What're Gillis and Sutter's motivations for speaking aloud? To save face? Who's Gillis' goalie? Belak can't in a very short time notice the reality of the locker room? Your reasoning behind Olesz's motivation is laughable, I'm sorry.
As to Gillis and Sutter's motivations, I really don't know them as people so judging their subjective reactions to the creature known as Olli Jokinen is a bit of a stretch, yet I do remember each thought Martin was asking for far too much at the deadline last year, and as individuals living in the free state of Canada they are free to speak to the press when it comes to what they wish to do in their individual capacities as general managers of their respective franchises.

Belak walked into a situation that had been boiling up for a while, of which I had no direct involvement in, yet I would think that as a modern human being -- living in a post-POMO world, yet with a Canadien twist -- he would be inclined to side with the train of thought that allows him to make quite a nice living playing the sport of ice hockey. He is kind of a clown and he likes to talk, so he naturally went out and spoke to the press.

As for Olesz, I think the press might have taken advantage of his youthful state of mind and the general disjunct that might exist adapting to a foreign land.

But as Professor Pangloss says, it all works out for the best...

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11-21-2008, 03:56 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
As to Gillis and Sutter's motivations, I really don't know them as people so judging their subjective reactions to the creature known as Olli Jokinen is a bit of a stretch, yet I do remember each thought Martin was asking for far too much at the deadline last year, and as individuals living in the free state of Canada they are free to speak to the press when it comes to what they wish to do in their individual capacities as general managers of their respective franchises.

Belak walked into a situation that had been boiling up for a while, of which I had no direct involvement in, yet I would think that as a modern human being -- living in a post-POMO world, yet with a Canadien twist -- he would be inclined to side with the train of thought that allows him to make quite a nice living playing the sport of ice hockey. He is kind of a clown and he likes to talk, so he naturally went out and spoke to the press.

As for Olesz, I think the press might have taken advantage of his youthful state of mind and the general disjunct that might exist adapting to a foreign land.
lol, and I'm the professor? You seem more bent on being sarcastic than having an actual discussion. Let me know when you're up to it.

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11-21-2008, 03:57 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
As to Gillis and Sutter's motivations, I really don't know them as people so judging their subjective reactions to the creature known as Olli Jokinen is a bit of a stretch, yet I do remember each thought Martin was asking for far too much at the deadline last year, and as individuals living in the free state of Canada they are free to speak to the press when it comes to what they wish to do in their individual capacities as general managers of their respective franchises.

Belak walked into a situation that had been boiling up for a while, of which I had no direct involvement in, yet I would think that as a modern human being -- living in a post-POMO world, yet with a Canadien twist -- he would be inclined to side with the train of thought that allows him to make quite a nice living playing the sport of ice hockey. He is kind of a clown and he likes to talk, so he naturally went out and spoke to the press.

As for Olesz, I think the press might have taken advantage of his youthful state of mind and the general disjunct that might exist adapting to a foreign land.

But as Professor Pangloss says, it all works out for the best...
It's funny. You had to reach quite a bit for each one of those rationalizations.

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11-21-2008, 04:01 PM
  #95
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It's funny. You had to reach quite a bit for each one of those rationalizations.
Not only that, but you won't find Olesz's comments in the press. Kinda hard for his comments to be twisted.

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11-21-2008, 04:01 PM
  #96
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It's funny. You had to reach quite a bit for each one of those rationalizations.
I don't see them as a stretch.

Would you deny that they are possiblilities? In a world where people are voicing their opinions openly to the media, is it not fair to question who they are and what their motivations for doing such are?

And if Olesz didn't make those comments to the media, where did he do so? Was it an icecream social?


Last edited by Acadmus: 11-21-2008 at 04:22 PM. Reason: politics
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11-21-2008, 04:04 PM
  #97
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Not only that, but you won't find Olesz's comments in the press. Kinda hard for his comments to be twisted.
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
I don't see them as a stretch.

Would you deny that they are possiblilities? In a world where people are voicing their opinions openly to the media, is it not fair to question who they are and what their motivations for doing such are?
Not terribly possible there.


Last edited by Acadmus: 11-21-2008 at 04:23 PM.
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11-21-2008, 04:06 PM
  #98
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So where were these comments made?

I'll get back to this after the game, if you still consider it a worthwhile pursuit, as I am going for a run.

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11-21-2008, 04:07 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
I don't see them as a stretch.

Would you deny that they are possiblilities? In a world where people are voicing their opinions openly to the media, is it not fair to question who they are and what their motivations for doing such are?

And if Olesz didn't make those comments to the media, where did he do so? Was it an icecream social?
Is it not also possible, and more likely, that people are not mindless zombies and do actually voice their true opinions without an agenda? You are taking comments and twisting it so that they fit your agenda.


Last edited by Acadmus: 11-21-2008 at 04:23 PM.
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11-21-2008, 04:08 PM
  #100
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Is it not also possible, and more likely, that people are not mindless zombies and do actually voice their true opinions without an agenda? You are taking comments and twisting it so that they fit your agenda.
I have no agenda. I really gain nothing from the situation.

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