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11-21-2008, 04:10 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
So where were these comments made?
During the dinner the team had with fans prior to (or at the start of) the season. Everyone at Olesz's table are message board users and all siad the same thing when they asked Olesz about Olli. The team wants to move on and feel he needed to go.

Guess I'm going to get how all the people at his table misunderstood him/aren't reliable? (Before going there, only one of those guys felt he needed to go).

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11-21-2008, 04:14 PM
  #102
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I have no agenda. I really gain nothing from the situation.
Sure you do. You want your side of the issue to be right. If that wasn't the case, you wouldn't be posting here.

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11-21-2008, 05:29 PM
  #103
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Olli should never have remained a captain. IMO, he was in way over his head with that responsibility, especially in a post-Keenan environment. This is a player who needs to be constantly challenged/pushed in order to remain consistent.

Either that, or he needs teammates that can shoulder the burden of leadership. He's a sniper, a complimentary player at best, and should never have been relied on to carry a team.

As for the trade, it was a necessary evil, especially given the fact that JM would remain as GM. It was clear the two could no longer coexist. No one here really knows what other deals were on the table, but I'm satisfied with the return we received from Phoenix.

However, it was a gamble to lock up some of our young players long term in the hopes they'd rise to their respective potentials. This year is the opportunity to jump start their progression...if it fails to happen, then we'll be in for some trouble ahead.

Frankly, I didn't expect much from this lineup, since depth remains slim and the forward talent is suspect. I do, however, think some of the pieces are here...DeBoer has to be given a chance to tap their potential while changing the culture of mediocrity.

All I can say is, if Year 3 yields little improvement, Cohen will have to make some hard decisions. Let's hope it doesn't come to that, because I scarcely believe our tepid fanbase would stick around for another rebuild.

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11-21-2008, 05:50 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
During the dinner the team had with fans prior to (or at the start of) the season. Everyone at Olesz's table are message board users and all siad the same thing when they asked Olesz about Olli. The team wants to move on and feel he needed to go.

Guess I'm going to get how all the people at his table misunderstood him/aren't reliable? (Before going there, only one of those guys felt he needed to go).
That isn't anything too profound, as it sounds like typical sports talk.

I'm getting a little bit too caught up in nuance here, as the team as a whole might have wanted him to go, but I don't really see how the team wanting him to go makes it a wise decision. I think the fact that certain people didn't speak out on it carries just as much meaning, if not more, than a few small comments here and there.

The larger argument is what these comments really provide as to insight into the truth of the matter. They are perspectives, small morsels, opinions...

They all sound like after the fact break-up speak. You/one could tell me that they are better off for having lost such and such ex-wife/husband, but that doesn't really make it so. It might just be a practical tool, a useful tool for dealing with the matter.

Anyway go cats

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11-22-2008, 12:58 AM
  #105
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Is not having Olli here the reason that some of the talented guys aren't living up to their capabilities, especially the players with abilities that helped them get drafted high?
So you are suggesting Olli made Horton a bad player and because of that he is responsible for our 7-11-1 start of the season. I don't know whether I should cry or laugh.

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11-22-2008, 01:16 AM
  #106
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We now are on pace for 65 points, whee. I sure am glad JM is such a great evaluator of talent. Cap is going down and we are proud to have Horton & Olezs locked to long term deals

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11-22-2008, 06:07 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Kaptah View Post
So you are suggesting Olli made Horton a bad player and because of that he is responsible for our 7-11-1 start of the season. I don't know whether I should cry or laugh.
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We now are on pace for 65 points, whee. I sure am glad JM is such a great evaluator of talent. Cap is going down and we are proud to have Horton & Olezs locked to long term deals
We're done talking, you're twisting my words around. As I said before, until you want to have an actual conversation, don' expect a response from me.

(Re-read the entie post, and then tell me how you went ahead and came up with your answer up there. How'd you run that far with that? Where'd I allude to that at all? That's not at all what I was suggesting)

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11-22-2008, 06:25 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
That isn't anything too profound, as it sounds like typical sports talk.

I'm getting a little bit too caught up in nuance here, as the team as a whole might have wanted him to go, but I don't really see how the team wanting him to go makes it a wise decision. I think the fact that certain people didn't speak out on it carries just as much meaning, if not more, than a few small comments here and there.

The larger argument is what these comments really provide as to insight into the truth of the matter. They are perspectives, small morsels, opinions...

They all sound like after the fact break-up speak. You/one could tell me that they are better off for having lost such and such ex-wife/husband, but that doesn't really make it so. It might just be a practical tool, a useful tool for dealing with the matter.

Anyway go cats
He was directly asked about how he felt about the Olli situation, I'm not going to get into his answer, but they backed up what's been said by others.

Imo, you're reaching fara nd hard to come up with your responses. I guess when you need to have a different answer...

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11-22-2008, 08:16 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
He was directly asked about how he felt about the Olli situation, I'm not going to get into his answer, but they backed up what's been said by others.

Imo, you're reaching fara nd hard to come up with your responses. I guess when you need to have a different answer...
I don't consider it a reach. I simply find your going back to these three statements by Belak, Olesz, and GR to be an oversimplification of a larger situation with much more involved. Like I said before, the fact that more accountable players, players who are and were expected to do more for the team, didn't openly the final decision says a lot more to me than comments by two 3rd and 4th line players, a reporter, and two men not involved with the organization. I just don't see that evidence as anything too substantial. I think it might have had a lot more influence on Bouwmeester's decision on whether to sign with the team than one would originally think.

From where I'm standing it was simply a butting of heads by Olli and JM. All those mentioned in your bundle of quotes simply decided for one reason or another it was in their best interest to side with JM. As to how well it improves this team, we'll see at the end of the year.

And as you think I am reaching too far, I think you are just attaching yourself to the easiest answer that presented itself. Two different ways of seeing an El Camino. You can have the last word on this one, because I can see our differences and I can see your case yet I don't find it convincing. I'd rather push this Coyote Olli thread out of sight for a while and dream this team has a shot at that 8th seed.


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11-22-2008, 12:21 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
I don't consider it a reach. I simply find your going back to these three statements by Belak, Olesz, and GR to be an oversimplification of a larger situation with much more involved. Like I said before, the fact that more accountable players, players who are and were expected to do more for the team, didn't openly the final decision says a lot more to me than comments by two 3rd and 4th line players, a reporter, and two men not involved with the organization. I just don't see that evidence as anything too substantial. I think it might have had a lot more influence on Bouwmeester's decision on whether to sign with the team than one would originally think.

From where I'm standing it was simply a butting of heads by Olli and JM. All those mentioned in your bundle of quotes simply decided for one reason or another it was in their best interest to side with JM. As to how well it improves this team, we'll see at the end of the year.

And as you think I am reaching too far, I think you are just attaching yourself to the easiest answer that presented itself. Two different ways of seeing an El Camino. You can have the last word on this one, because I can see our differences and I can see your case yet I don't find it convincing. I'd rather push this Coyote Olli thread out of sight for a while and dream this team has a shot at that 8th seed.
Or mayhaps, other players said nothing because a) they weren't asked, b) they didn't want to be involved in a ****storm, c) some were in Jokinen's clique and didn't want to be scapegoated.

You're reaching so much and trying to over complicate this. There's simply no evidence to suggest the people lied--none. What you're doing is similar to what insane conspiracy theorists do to push their side of an issue. When you have actual evidence of people lying, you can reach as far a you want. As it is, Occam's Razor really applies here. Not everyone is a liar and people are extremely capable of being truthful in the media.

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11-22-2008, 12:49 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
Talk about neither of you arguing the facts and resorting to extremes. Olli wasn't the saviour of this team or any team, but he wasn't the cancerous player some people want to make him out to be. He moved on, this team moved on, enough already really. He was the all time leading scorer here in Florida, now he isn't here.
Peltonen himself said that Olli was a cancer in the locker room.

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11-22-2008, 09:50 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by StrangeVision View Post
Or mayhaps, other players said nothing because a) they weren't asked, b) they didn't want to be involved in a ****storm, c) some were in Jokinen's clique and didn't want to be scapegoated.

You're reaching so much and trying to over complicate this. There's simply no evidence to suggest the people lied--none. What you're doing is similar to what insane conspiracy theorists do to push their side of an issue. When you have actual evidence of people lying, you can reach as far a you want. As it is, Occam's Razor really applies here. Not everyone is a liar and people are extremely capable of being truthful in the media.
I fail to see how I'm over complicating "this," when I stated in a previous post that what Laus sees as being a huge case for Jokinen's departure just doesn't do it for me.
It's really that simple -- I see it as the run of the mill breakin' up cliche.

You are taking what I'm saying in your own direction. I wasn't calling them liars. I was making reference to the concept that we all as individuals have our own perspectives on every situation that goes on in our life. Often, these perspectives are influenced by what is in our best interest or simply "good for us." Our answers make sense of things for us. Thanks for trying to paint me into a box as some madman typing from his bat cave full of charts and graphs, and broken mirrors; however, I think I'll seek the help of a professional when I arrive at said point, or just have a bit of fun with it.

My statements as to why each said what they did were obviously cut-ups, characatures, a petty attempt at humor, so I apologize if you couldn't easily see that.

Could it not be quite possible that they are telling what they percieve to be true, and yet at the same time there is a completely different version of the truth? When dealing with human relations, if it be person to person, or a larger group dynamic, the idea of truth is a bit more complicated than you seem to want it to be. There is no real laboratory where this kind of attempt at what is true can really be analyzed.

Nice use of mayhaps


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11-23-2008, 06:15 AM
  #113
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Allow me to interject here...

I just realized how close the thread title is a variation of the term, "Coyote Ugly." And, having done so, I can't get the image of Olli Jokinen dancing on a bar top out of my mind.


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11-23-2008, 06:19 AM
  #114
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Allow me to interject here...

I just realized how close the thread title is a variation of the term, "Coyote Ugly." And, having done so, I can't get the image of Olli Jokinen dancing on a bar top out of my mind.

You have issues, man.

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11-23-2008, 06:27 AM
  #115
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You have issues, man.
Well, I am a Panthers fan, you know.

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11-23-2008, 10:53 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
I fail to see how I'm over complicating "this," when I stated in a previous post that what Laus sees as being a huge case for Jokinen's departure just doesn't do it for me.
It's really that simple -- I see it as the run of the mill breakin' up cliche.

You are taking what I'm saying in your own direction. I wasn't calling them liars. I was making reference to the concept that we all as individuals have our own perspectives on every situation that goes on in our life. Often, these perspectives are influenced by what is in our best interest or simply "good for us." Our answers make sense of things for us. Thanks for trying to paint me into a box as some madman typing from his bat cave full of charts and graphs, and broken mirrors; however, I think I'll seek the help of a professional when I arrive at said point, or just have a bit of fun with it.

My statements as to why each said what they did were obviously cut-ups, characatures, a petty attempt at humor, so I apologize if you couldn't easily see that.

Could it not be quite possible that they are telling what they percieve to be true, and yet at the same time there is a completely different version of the truth? When dealing with human relations, if it be person to person, or a larger group dynamic, the idea of truth is a bit more complicated than you seem to want it to be. There is no real laboratory where this kind of attempt at what is true can really be analyzed.

Nice use of mayhaps
When you have various people saying the same thing, it's safe to assume that is what the view of others is. It's not as if there was only one or two guys saying things about Jokinen, there were many.

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11-23-2008, 11:14 AM
  #117
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When you have various people saying the same thing, it's safe to assume that is what the view of others is. It's not as if there was only one or two guys saying things about Jokinen, there were many.
So far I have counted about 3 or 4 panthers players. That's hardly a great sampling. We've got at least 4 people on this board who think Craig Anderson would be as good of a goalie as Tomas Vokoun. However, it doesn't seem right to conclude from this evidence that most others on HFBoards view the situation the same way. If we are safely assuming everything, I'll still assume that more players on this team, or on the team last year, have a problem with JM than those that had a problem with Jokinen. However, as men making a good living of it, they choose to keep their opinions quiet. It's a simple enough question really, JM or Jokinen, trying to equate it with questions of why to easily and readily dismiss aliens landing in the desert and dumbed down versions of outdated maxims really doesn't turn the light on for me. I can wait to be proven wrong a year or two from now, once Bouwmeester and others leave the team and eventually when JM is cut by the erratic nature of Cohen.

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11-23-2008, 01:27 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by ratmanfu View Post
Allow me to interject here...

I just realized how close the thread title is a variation of the term, "Coyote Ugly." And, having done so, I can't get the image of Olli Jokinen dancing on a bar top out of my mind.

That's my nickname for Olli now.

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11-23-2008, 03:15 PM
  #119
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So far I have counted about 3 or 4 panthers players. That's hardly a great sampling.
Your analogy with goaltending was horrible, so I'm going to leave it out.

3 or 4 players and a number of outside observers in the NHL.

Is it that hard to accept Jokinen became a negative influence in the locker room?

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11-23-2008, 03:42 PM
  #120
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Your analogy with goaltending was horrible, so I'm going to leave it out.

3 or 4 players and a number of outside observers in the NHL.

Is it that hard to accept Jokinen became a negative influence in the locker room?
What would outside observers know about how negative an influence a player might be in the locker room?

Your critique of my horrible example was horrible, so I am going to leave it out by mentioning it in a rather trivial manner.

It all boils down to the fact that the Panthers are never good about parting with their best players: Bure was lazy, Luongo was greedy, and Jokinen just wasn't the pollyanna the team needed.

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11-23-2008, 04:36 PM
  #121
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Pukboy, give it a rest. Olli wasn't the leader the team needed and it became all about himself. Olesz wasn't just "shooting the breeze" with people at his table, he talked about how different it was without him here and than most of the room was happy he was gone. He had plenty to say about him and that's been echoed by others.

Your "possible scenarios" are terribly far-fetched, I'm sorry, but they are. While it's obviously not his fault that things are they way they are here, he certainly didn't help anything...at all.

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11-23-2008, 04:49 PM
  #122
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Pukboy, give it a rest. Olli wasn't the leader the team needed and it became all about himself. Olesz wasn't just "shooting the breeze" with people at his table, he talked about how different it was without him here and than most of the room was happy he was gone. He had plenty to say about him and that's been echoed by others.

Your "possible scenarios" are terribly far-fetched, I'm sorry, but they are. While it's obviously not his fault that things are they way they are here, he certainly didn't help anything...at all.
I'll back off of it as it's beyond stale at this point.

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11-23-2008, 04:52 PM
  #123
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I'll back off of it as it's beyond stale at this point.
Agreed.

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11-23-2008, 04:56 PM
  #124
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It takes a group effort to be this bad for this long.

Olli played his part, as did others.

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11-24-2008, 05:14 AM
  #125
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Olesz wasn't just "shooting the breeze" with people at his table, he talked about how different it was without him here and than most of the room was happy he was gone.
I'm so happy the room was happy. After this remarkable 7-11-1 start they must be smiling Heath Ledgerish. Happy, happy, joy, joy!

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