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Retroactive Norris Trophies

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Old
10-14-2008, 02:21 PM
  #1
Rick Middleton
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Retroactive Norris Trophies

http://nitzyshockeyden.blogspot.com/...-trophies.html

Quote:
...
As you can see, in my list, Red Kelly would have won five consecutive Norris Trophies, (including the actual won he did win). All time greats who would have won two or three were Kenny Reardon, Flash Hollett, Tommy Anderson, King Clancy, Hap Day, Buck Boucher, Harry Cameron and Sprague Cleghorn.

The immortal Eddie Shore would have won six out of eight years, third all time behind Orr and Harvey.

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Old
10-14-2008, 02:34 PM
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Dark Shadows
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A better list was compiled by another member of the History forum.


Norris

1917-18 Harry Cameron
1918-19 Harry Cameron
1919-20 Sprague Cleghorn
1920-21 Eddie Gerard
1921-22 George Boucher
1922-23 George Boucher
1923-24 George Boucher
1924-25 Sprague Cleghorn
1925-26 George Boucher
1926-27 Herb Gardiner
1927-28 Eddie Shore
1928-29 Eddie Shore
1929-30 King Clancy
1930-31 Eddie Shore
1931-32 Eddie Shore
1932-33 Eddie Shore
1933-34 King Clancy
1934-35 Eddie Shore
1935-36 Eddie Shore
1936-37 Albert Siebert
1937-38 Eddie Shore
1938-39 Aubbrey Clapper
1939-40 Ebbie Goodfellow
1940-41 Aubbrey Clapper
1941-42 Tom Anderson
1942-43 Earl Seibert
1943-44 Earl Seibert
1944-45 William Hollett
1945-46 Émile Bouchard
1946-47 Ken Reardon
1947-48 Jack Stewart
1948-49 Jack Stewart
1949-50 Ken Reardon
1950-51 Red Kelly
1951-52 Red Kelly
1952-53 Doug Harvey

Retroactive NHA Award Winners

Norris:
1910 - Cyclone Taylor
1911 - Cyclone Taylor
1912 - Art Ross
1913 - Sprague Cleghorn
1914 - Harry Cameron
1915 - Sprague Cleghorn
1916 - Harry Cameron
1917 - Sprague Cleghorn

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Old
10-14-2008, 02:38 PM
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Dark Shadows
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I was having a discussion based on Shore's wins with another member recently.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
I do not think its his pre-all star selection years where he loses a Norris.
Here is the list one of the others provided(I think it was Pnep's)
Norris

1917-18 Harry Cameron
1918-19 Harry Cameron
1919-20 Sprague Cleghorn
1920-21 Eddie Gerard
1921-22 George Boucher
1922-23 George Boucher
1923-24 George Boucher
1924-25 Sprague Cleghorn
1925-26 George Boucher
1926-27 Herb Gardiner
1927-28 Eddie Shore
1928-29 Eddie Shore
1929-30 King Clancy
1930-31 Eddie Shore
1931-32 Eddie Shore
1932-33 Eddie Shore
1933-34 King Clancy
1934-35 Eddie Shore
1935-36 Eddie Shore
1936-37 Albert Siebert
1937-38 Eddie Shore
1938-39 Aubbrey Clapper
1939-40 Ebbie Goodfellow
1940-41 Aubbrey Clapper
1941-42 Tom Anderson
1942-43 Earl Seibert
1943-44 Earl Seibert
1944-45 William Hollett
1945-46 Émile Bouchard
1946-47 Ken Reardon
1947-48 Jack Stewart
1948-49 Jack Stewart
1949-50 Ken Reardon
1950-51 Red Kelly
1951-52 Red Kelly
1952-53 Doug Harvey

Retroactive NHA Award Winners

Norris:
1910 - Cyclone Taylor
1911 - Cyclone Taylor
1912 - Art Ross
1913 - Sprague Cleghorn
1914 - Harry Cameron
1915 - Sprague Cleghorn
1916 - Harry Cameron
1917 - Sprague Cleghorn

30-31 would be a close thing for Shore and Clancy, but Shore gets the Nod as he beat Clancy in Hart voting by a slim margin.

The most arguable year is 31-32 since Ching Johnson came runner up for the Hart trophy to Morenz, and he shared a 1st team selection with Shore. But it is up in the air.

Clancy's 33-34 is arguable because Lionel Conacher was runner up for the Hart, 1 spot ahead of 3rd place Clancy.
Same with 29-30 since Lionel Hitchman beat Clancy out in the Hart Race. Shore outscored them both that year, but Hitchman, Shore's teammate, got the Hart nods due to being ahead of either of them defensively. Boston's votes were split between Weiland and Hitchman, Clancy being the only Leaf getting top 5 votes, and he still beat him out.

Its all debatable.

Shore was a lock for at least 7 IMO, and its possible he gets an 8th.

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10-14-2008, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post

Norris:
1910 - Cyclone Taylor
1911 - Cyclone Taylor
1912 - Art Ross
1913 - Sprague Cleghorn
1914 - Harry Cameron
1915 - Sprague Cleghorn
1916 - Harry Cameron
1917 - Sprague Cleghorn
Cyclone Taylor was a foward...

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Old
10-15-2008, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsberg4ever View Post
Cyclone Taylor was a foward...
He played both positions from what I understand

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10-15-2008, 12:51 AM
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Wow. Orr could be TIED for the most Norris' had they been around back then.

BTW, If I wanted to select Norris winners myself, I would have done the following:

1983-84- Paul Coffey (You can argue about Langway until your face turns blue- I don't care. He deserved it in 1982-83, but NOT the next year)

1987-88- Gary Suter

1990-91- Al MacInnis (I always thought Bourque's reputation got him the Norris this year)

1993-94- Scott Stevens (He deserved one. That was his best chance, IMO)

1991-92- Phil Housley (HE DESERVED BETTER!!)

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Old
10-15-2008, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Wow. Orr could be TIED for the most Norris' had they been around back then.

BTW, If I wanted to select Norris winners myself, I would have done the following:

1983-84- Paul Coffey (You can argue about Langway until your face turns blue- I don't care. He deserved it in 1982-83, but NOT the next year)
Not a chance. Langway meant far more to the caps than Coffey did to the Oilers, and his defense was impeccable. Coffey, while good offensively, had his numbers padded by that superstar team, and was atrocious in his own end.

But in either case, Bourque was the true missed norris guy that year to me.

Exchange Bourque with Coffey on those Oilers squads and the Oilers forwards might have a slight 5-10 point drop, but their goals against would improve dramatically. Bourque would have broken 110 points, while Coffey would have dropped to 100 points or so on that dramatically different Bruins team.
Quote:
1987-88- Gary Suter
How do you figure this?
Bourque was a lock this season, and if anyone was stealing it from his, it was Scott Stevens, not Gary Suter.

Quote:
1990-91- Al MacInnis (I always thought Bourque's reputation got him the Norris this year)
You brought this up in the "Best from 90's" thread, and my responce is still the same.

"Macinnis was tremendous, But Bourque was better. on a weaker team, he was a combination of the best Defensive Dman in the league that year, and a better offensive force than Macinnis. Macinnis may have outscored Bourque, but playing with a Prime Theoren Fleury, Joe Nieuwyndyk, Doug Gilmour, Gary Roberts, and having a 70 point Gary Suter as a D partner + Sergei Makarov still playing extremely well would help anyones numbers a bit.

Bourque lead his team in scoring, was a tremendous Defense first presence(Macinnis was good, but not Bourque good), and had Neely and Softy Janney. Nobody else broke 60 points.

Since we are including playoffs, Bourque's team leading 25 points in 19 playoff games was also key. If not For Neely being taken out(16 goals in 16 games before the Samuelsson hit), Moog catching the flu and Poulin being injured(Best Defensive forward), the Bruins were actually likely to beat Pittsburgh"

Quote:
1993-94- Scott Stevens (He deserved one. That was his best chance, IMO)
Bourque was just better on both ends of the ice. Stevens at this point was not stellar defensively. He needed to completely stop playing offensively to reach Bourque's level defensively.

Quote:
1991-92- Phil Housley (HE DESERVED BETTER!!)
He was nothing more than 4th best for the Norris in his best year(This is why he is not a HHOFer). He was one of the worst guys defensively I have ever seen, and there were many better than him in his best year.

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Old
10-15-2008, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Wow. Orr could be TIED for the most Norris' had they been around back then.

BTW, If I wanted to select Norris winners myself, I would have done the following:

1983-84- Paul Coffey (You can argue about Langway until your face turns blue- I don't care. He deserved it in 1982-83, but NOT the next year)

1987-88- Gary Suter

1990-91- Al MacInnis (I always thought Bourque's reputation got him the Norris this year)

1993-94- Scott Stevens (He deserved one. That was his best chance, IMO)

1991-92- Phil Housley (HE DESERVED BETTER!!)
There's a few Norris trophy winners that have bugged me over the years, and who I thought should have won them:

80-81 Potvin over Carlyle
82-83 Really no one definitive winner, but I thought a number of guys were more deserving than Langway and his one-dimensional game. Potvin, Robinson, Bourque, Howe, Wilson were all better IMO.
83-84 Bourque over Langway
84-85 Bourque over Coffey
85-86 Howe over Coffey
93-94 Stevens - Sorry T19, Stevens was a more complete player than Bourque that year. Stevens was almost as good offensively, and was his defensive equal but was much more physically dominating.


Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 10-15-2008 at 10:25 PM.
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Old
10-15-2008, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
There's a few Norris trophy winners that have bugged me over the years, and who I thought should have won them:

80-81 Potvin over Carlyle
Well, I think although Carlyle was a flash in the pan, he deserved this Norris.
He was not great any other year, but that particular year, he was very good on a really bad team. Granted, it was close. Despite his +/-, Carlyle really was good defensively that year and stood out.

Quote:
81-82 Really no one definitive winner, but I thought a number of guys were more deserving than Langway and his one-dimensional game. Potvin, Robinson, Bourque, Howe, Wilson were all better IMO.
Wilson deservingly won it in 81-82, and he was better than Carlyle was his year.

If you meant 82-83, I disagree. Langway's contribution to his team was unbelievable. He was a top runner for the Hart both years in a row because he was just unpassable defensively. One of the greatest defensive Dman years I ever saw, and it is rare that you see a defensive Dman just carry a team like he did. Coffey was good, but below several others that year.

Quote:
83-84 Bourque over Langway
If anyone was beating Langway, it was Bourque. but Langway finished runner up to Gretzky for the Hart. I would have picked Bourque too though. 31 goals, 96 points and a phenomenal two way game.
Quote:
84-85 Bourque over Coffey
Was closer this year than 84-85, but yes. I agree. Bourque led his team in scoring and again had a phenomenal two way game. Nothing near as good as his 2 Hart Runner up years, but still unbelievable.

Quote:
85-86 Howe over Coffey
I will honestly say no to that this year. Coffey's best year ever, and he was scoring so much that he really didn't need to play defense. His best year ever for Even strength goals against, and he was phenomenal. But its close for Howe.

Quote:
93-94 Stevens - Sorry T19, Stevens was a more complete player than Bourque that year. Stevens was almost as good offensively, and was his defensive equal but was much more physically dominating.
He was not even close to almost as good offensively to me. He carried his team yes, but not to the same degree Bourque did in his team carrying years, and no, he was not as good defensively. Stevens was a hard hitter back then, but played a game more akin to Dion Phaneuf does now. He would put himself out of position playing offense and going for those big hits. Stevens never reached Bourque's level of Defensive play until he forsook his offense completely.

Stevens had 78 points in 83 games. Bourque had 91 points in 72 games(Equals out to 104 points in 83 games).

Just my opinion of course


Last edited by Dark Shadows: 10-15-2008 at 08:58 PM.
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Old
10-15-2008, 09:44 PM
  #10
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Just my opinion of course
Not surprised. I personally feel you are a Bourque homer like Bob Cole used to allegedly be a Leafs homer.

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10-15-2008, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post
Wilson deservingly won it in 81-82, and he was better than Carlyle was his year.

If you meant 82-83, I disagree. Langway's contribution to his team was unbelievable. He was a top runner for the Hart both years in a row because he was just unpassable defensively. One of the greatest defensive Dman years I ever saw, and it is rare that you see a defensive Dman just carry a team like he did. Coffey was good, but below several others that year.
Yeah, I meant 82-83. My bad, and I'll make the change.

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10-15-2008, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Al Bundy View Post
Not surprised. I personally feel you are a Bourque homer like Bob Cole used to allegedly be a Leafs homer.
And you have always come off as a Bourque detractor like Don Cherry on Euro hockey, yet always praised far lesser defensemen like Housley and Coffey. On your "best of the 80's and 90's" entries, you dropped Bourque down or out completely of every one of his big years.

Defense is my favorite position, and Bourque is top 4 all time behind Orr, Shore, and Harvey, and Bourque is almost a top 10 all time player. I truly enjoyed watching him play, and give him the credit he deserves. 19 all star selections and top 3 for the Norris 15 times. He was stellar every year.


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10-15-2008, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Forsberg4ever View Post
Cyclone Taylor was a foward...
He was primarily a rover. But when he played for Ottawa he was a defence and latter when he played 5-a-side he was a center. But his primary position is one that no longer exists.

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10-15-2008, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton_19 View Post

"Macinnis was tremendous, But Bourque was better. on a weaker team, he was a combination of the best Defensive Dman in the league that year, and a better offensive force than Macinnis. Macinnis may have outscored Bourque, but playing with a Prime Theoren Fleury, Joe Nieuwyndyk, Doug Gilmour, Gary Roberts, and having a 70 point Gary Suter as a D partner + Sergei Makarov still playing extremely well would help anyones numbers a bit.

Bourque lead his team in scoring, was a tremendous Defense first presence(Macinnis was good, but not Bourque good), and had Neely and Softy Janney. Nobody else broke 60 points.

Since we are including playoffs, Bourque's team leading 25 points in 19 playoff games was also key. If not For Neely being taken out(16 goals in 16 games before the Samuelsson hit), Moog catching the flu and Poulin being injured(Best Defensive forward), the Bruins were actually likely to beat Pittsburgh"
I've seen you post this argument a couple times now. I may be may not be following you 100% on this but are you trying to imply that Al's stats were padded by his team? If you are I really have to take issue with that point.

Al had one less point than Fleury did in one less game played. The next closest behind Al was 85 points an 18 point differential. On a team that scored 344 goals that is dominant. Borque outscored Janney by two who had one more game played, and Neely by three who had 9 less games played.

Defensively I agree Borque is generally better. Was he really that much better? Al was certainly ahead of the majority in his own zone. Is there a point where we just need to accept a certain general effectiveness without hindering overall game?

Playoffs, well yeah I certainly agree here. The Flames were just coming off an Cup and while a good team I don't consider them a dynasty level of team.

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Old
10-16-2008, 05:48 AM
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I've seen you post this argument a couple times now. I may be may not be following you 100% on this but are you trying to imply that Al's stats were padded by his team? If you are I really have to take issue with that point.

Al had one less point than Fleury did in one less game played. The next closest behind Al was 85 points an 18 point differential. On a team that scored 344 goals that is dominant. Borque outscored Janney by two who had one more game played, and Neely by three who had 9 less games played.

Defensively I agree Borque is generally better. Was he really that much better? Al was certainly ahead of the majority in his own zone. Is there a point where we just need to accept a certain general effectiveness without hindering overall game?

Playoffs, well yeah I certainly agree here. The Flames were just coming off an Cup and while a good team I don't consider them a dynasty level of team.
I am saying, in that year in question, with those players, Al had much more help than Bourque did, and that if you exchanged their teams, you might see a 5-10 point hop for Bourque's numbers simply by virtue of his breakout passes being put to better use than they were by his lesser teammates.

Let's not fool ourselves. Janney(A guy always upjumped by Neely and Hull and Shanahan) was not a player on caliber with Nieuwyndyk, Fleury, Gilmour or Makarov(all tremendous talents on their own), and Glen Wesley/Sweeney were not Gary Suter offensively. Neely was very good, but when stacked up against those flames forwards, one man does not make the difference 4 superstar forwards make.

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