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Is Lundmark A Bust ?

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Old
02-27-2004, 09:10 AM
  #1
RANGERDIEHARD
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Is Lundmark A Bust ?

After seeing Tyutin adapt to the NHL game and develop into a solid player before my very eyes, it got me thinking about Lundmark who has been with the big club for 2 1/2 years now and still hasn't shown that he belongs here. He was projected to be a gritty player with lots of speed who gets most of his goals around the net?So far he has not driven to the net, he makes mistakes in his own zone, he is not physical and he often gets out-muscled along the boards. Supporters will say that he has not been given a fair shot on the top lines or that he has not been given sufficient ice time. Well I feel that you need to prove yourself first before you are granted that chance. He has been a 3rd/4th liner most of the year with modest ice time on the top lines. IMO, overall he simply has not played to the point where a coach's decision was easy and it was obvious that he deserves to play on the top lines. Don't forget Lindros was a 4th liner too this year and his play on that line made it easy for a coach to move him to a line with more skilled players.
What scares me even more is that so far every top pick in his draft year has turned out to be underperformers: Stefan, Sedin twins, Brendl, Beech, etc.
Is Lundmark a bust? It's still a little early to say for sure that's why the question mark is there. But it doesn't look like he is going to develop into the player we thought we were getting.

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02-27-2004, 09:16 AM
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Is he a bust?

I think next season is Lundmark's boom or bust season. When drafted, everybody said this kid's a sure-fire NHLer, but needs time. I don't think anybody at that time expected Jamie to be lighting the NHL on fire until he was 22-23. Well, he's in that timeframe right now and it's time to show something. Problem is, he is playing with non-offensive players and expected to produce offense. Now Jamie isn't a Jagr - he will not take control of a game, and he will not be a dominant player. What Jamie is is a good, complementary player. He's a good skater. He has good instincts. He will backcheck. He will forecheck, although he's only OK along the boards. He is OK on the PK. He has a great shot and is a good stickhandler and passer. He's not that big guy in the middle who'll create room for his wingers. He needs a Holik, Jagr, or Kovalev on his line in order to create room for him and get him the puck.

Jamie's showed flashes of an NHL player, and he's disappeared at times, looking somewhat lost (although he hasn't seemed lost in a while, but has been in a diminished role).

With the situation the Rangers are in right now, I don't know why Jamie isn't centering a line with Kovalev to his right, or why Jamie isn't taking Hlavac's or Simon's position on two of the other top lines. It's time to give him a consistent shot with a real message and see if he takes the bull by the horns.

As for the other picks...Brendl's starting to put up some numbers (prior to getting hurt), and Sedin has about 16 goals now. These guys are only 22. Just because they were rushed into the league doesn't necessarily automatically make them 5-year vets - they're still kind of young and may be just blossoming - and Stefan's been plagued by injuries - but hasn't he molded his game to become a decent defensive forward?

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02-27-2004, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Fletch
With the situation the Rangers are in right now, I don't know why Jamie isn't centering a line with Kovalev to his right, or why Jamie isn't taking Hlavac's or Simon's position on two of the other top lines. It's time to give him a consistent shot with a real message and see if he takes the bull by the horns.
Exactly. Very few young playes can just create instant offense by themselves. They are usually put into a position so that they can get confidence in their offensive game by playing w/ other top liners. In Jaime's case, however, he is skating on a line w/ Lac & Ortmeyer. What young player could create instant offense w/ those 2 as linemates?

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02-27-2004, 09:28 AM
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Bust??

C'mon.. Enough of this judging players by their first couple of seasons (especially with a team like this)..

Lundmark has shown me he has the speed and smarts (positionaly) to be a long term NHL player.. He may not have lived up to his draft position yet, but big deal..

He should be part of the future core, but not counted on to carry the team in any way..

Since Lundmark and Ortmeyer have formed the best PK unit, I'd say both have a lot to contribute for now, and will only get better as they add strength and experience..

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02-27-2004, 10:20 AM
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Lundmark shows flashes

I, like others, would like to see him get time with better offensive players. I don't see any point of Hlavac being on this team anymore. Until either Nedved and/or Kovalev gets traded, (and Dellapina mentions today that the Wings are showing interest in both players), I think Lundmark SHOULD get a chance on the 2nd line. You can see he has passing skills. (I saw him play against the Debbies right after the All-Star break; he set up both Ortmeyer and Lacouture for opportunities that neither have the skill to finish.) Remember last year, Messier did a good job of setting him up for for the quick shot off the pass from just inside the faceoff dots. He's shown skills at various points. He's a skill player, not a grinder. (Yet another example of how mismatched this team is.)

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02-27-2004, 10:59 AM
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Patience grasshopper...

He has not been as good as quickly as many of us had hoped and appears to be struggling as a 4th liner with limited offensive potential (with even more limited offensive potential on his wings).

The leg injury this season cost him some productive time, the awful Rangers performances have further hurt him and his role as a 4th liner and PK specialist probably doesn't make the best use of his skills.

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02-27-2004, 10:59 AM
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I think that Lundmark needs extended time playing with legit NHLers.

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02-27-2004, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas
I, like others, would like to see him get time with better offensive players. I don't see any point of Hlavac being on this team anymore. Until either Nedved and/or Kovalev gets traded, (and Dellapina mentions today that the Wings are showing interest in both players), I think Lundmark SHOULD get a chance on the 2nd line. You can see he has passing skills. (I saw him play against the Debbies right after the All-Star break; he set up both Ortmeyer and Lacouture for opportunities that neither have the skill to finish.) Remember last year, Messier did a good job of setting him up for for the quick shot off the pass from just inside the faceoff dots. He's shown skills at various points. He's a skill player, not a grinder. (Yet another example of how mismatched this team is.)
He is a skill player but from what was said about him being a Jeremy Roenick type player, I just don't see. Personally, I'm surprised he isn't faster, he's above average but still not overly fast (I'd take Rucinsky and even Mess over him). And I thought as a player who was compared to JR, he'd be more physical.

That being said, I wouldn't label him a bust because I think we need a coach who has a plan for him, checker, scorer, whatever and keep with that plan. BTW, his best attribute that I see are his hands. Way above average if you ask me.

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02-27-2004, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Jackson Ranger
That being said, I wouldn't label him a bust because I think we need a coach who has a plan for him, checker, scorer, whatever and keep with that plan. BTW, his best attribute that I see are his hands. Way above average if you ask me.
his hands he has two goals

lundmark is a huge bust he averages 11 minutes a night in 37 games and he shows no offense. even ortmeyer gets in better postion to score goals (the breakaway againts montreal)

i'm sorry but it shouldn't matter who he plays with. if thats the argument than its a soft one. if lundmark was so good than he should make the players around him better.

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02-27-2004, 11:32 AM
  #10
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
his hands he has two goals

lundmark is a huge bust he averages 11 minutes a night in 37 games and he shows no offense. even ortmeyer gets in better postion to score goals (the breakaway againts montreal)

i'm sorry but it shouldn't matter who he plays with. if thats the argument than its a soft one. if lundmark was so good than he should make the players around him better.
The breakaway against Montreal was because Ortmeyer was coming out of the penalty box, unless of course you're suggesting that Lundmark take more penalties

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02-27-2004, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
his hands he has two goals

lundmark is a huge bust he averages 11 minutes a night in 37 games and he shows no offense. even ortmeyer gets in better postion to score goals (the breakaway againts montreal)

i'm sorry but it shouldn't matter who he plays with. if thats the argument than its a soft one. if lundmark was so good than he should make the players around him better.
the only thing I really notice time and time again about Lundmark is that he is so weak. I do not think he is a bust yet, but he is quickly running out of time. He needs to get stronger and fast. He looks like a little kid out there

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02-27-2004, 11:37 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by Fish
The breakaway against Montreal was because Ortmeyer was coming out of the penalty box, unless of course you're suggesting that Lundmark take more penalties
maybe if lundmark did take more penalties you would hear his name more. look i want results i don't want to hear the crying about who he is playing with. if he were any good he would show something with the linemates he is playing with.

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02-27-2004, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
maybe if lundmark did take more penalties you would hear his name more. look i want results i don't want to hear the crying about who he is playing with. if he were any good he would show something with the linemates he is playing with.
Son of Steinbrenner has a point. If he has so much talent, he should shine more when he is on the fourth line. How is he any good if he can score on a line with Jagr? Even Jeff Toms scored a hat trick on the #1 line

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02-27-2004, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
his hands he has two goals

lundmark is a huge bust he averages 11 minutes a night in 37 games and he shows no offense. even ortmeyer gets in better postion to score goals (the breakaway againts montreal)

i'm sorry but it shouldn't matter who he plays with. if thats the argument than its a soft one. if lundmark was so good than he should make the players around him better.
When I wrote about "his hands" I meant stickhandling. He seems to have soft hands in order to make some moves. Now, as far as finishing, no I haven't seen that yet either. However, I'm not going to give up on the guy because to me, he hasn't been give a specific role yet.

As far as him being weak, I agree. He needs to get stronger. I guess that kind of goes to what I was saying before. If he was faster, you'd let him slide a bit not being as strong because he could use his speed but he isn't fast enough or strong enough. But I still see a ueseful player who might mature into a good player.

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02-27-2004, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Bill
Son of Steinbrenner has a point. If he has so much talent, he should shine more when he is on the fourth line. How is he any good if he can score on a line with Jagr? Even Jeff Toms scored a hat trick on the #1 line
He has not point whatsoever. Who friggin' cares what Putty did? It was the crowning moment of his otherwise invisible career. Name to me the offensive prospects around the league that can create their own instant offense when skating on the 4th line, surrounded by players who will, in a good year, score MAYBE 10 goals. Point out the teams that take their top offensive prospects and drop them on the 4th line and expect 20 goals or otherwise good offensice chances. Whenever Lundmark has played w/ other offensive players, he has looked very good.

"if lundmark was so good than he should make the players around him better."

This is the biggest crock of crap that I've seen in a while. VERY FEW players in the league qualify as those who make players around them better. Sakic, Forsberg, Heatly, Modano, etc. These players are not just superstars, but SUPERSTARS. Other then those type of players, very few players make other players around them "better". No one is saying that Lundmark is a superstar. But if you want him to develop into anything other than a 3rd/4th line grinder, why not give him a shot w/ the top lines? What purpose does it do to see a 43 year old carcass skate w/ top lines? NONE. Season is over, at least see what happens if Jaime plays w/ other skilled players.

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02-27-2004, 01:05 PM
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it's hard to say.

I dont know if he'll be the the 70-80 point center on the first line as originally projected but he's shown double digit scoring in his career thus far which says a lot considering his linemates and icetime.

anyone who expects rookies to come in and lift 4th line teammates hasn't been looking at the successful rookies over the past several seasons. they may start on the 4th line but they get the chance to move up. Can anyone argue why hlvac has been given as much of a chance as he has? Or why Lundmark in the past has shown flashes of brilliance and then been demoted as a result?

Lundmark isn't gonna be the allstar player he was envisioned to be. He just doesn't seem to have that drive in him and he's honestly never really taken it up a notch. However, he could be a solid 20-25 goal, 55-60 point player if given the chance which isnt going to happen here.

A 6'0, 195 pound playmaker on the 4th line is setting someone up to fail just as much as asking an 18 year goalie to carry a team of fringe defenseman {ahem, cough, cough}.

Has Jamie been perfect? nope, but this teams track record speaks for itself. When everyone in the league considers it a modern marvel of inefficiency and poor management, how exactly is a rookie supposed to somehow buck that trend? He's not and that's a reason this time hasn't had a Calder winner since Brian Leetch and a big reason why they've had a grand total of two nominees in the past 15 years {Amonte and York} both of whom came out of college.

So is he a bust? Not yet, but if he is it's not entirely on him. However i could easily see him going to another team, getting the icetime and turning into a solid nhl'er just like malhotra has "magically" done with the proper development and icetime.

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02-27-2004, 01:07 PM
  #17
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Marlaue
Naslund
Doan
Pronger
Bertuzzi

the list goes on, let the guy develope for gods sake.

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02-27-2004, 01:11 PM
  #18
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but that's the nhl.

people got so used to 18 year olds tearing it up {doesnt happen in other sports} that most people forgot many top rookies and youngsters in other sports are in their mid 20's.

But the NHL {which has a history of impatience} seems to think a kid is a bust if he isn't scoring 25 goals by the time he is 23. Heck if a kid doesnt make it to the nhl after an AHL season he is considered a bust now.

I'd be more concerned if Lundmark were scoring 10 goals in hartford.

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02-27-2004, 01:31 PM
  #19
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Originally Posted by True Blue
He has not point whatsoever. Who friggin' cares what Putty did? It was the crowning moment of his otherwise invisible career. Name to me the offensive prospects around the league that can create their own instant offense when skating on the 4th line, surrounded by players who will, in a good year, score MAYBE 10 goals. Point out the teams that take their top offensive prospects and drop them on the 4th line and expect 20 goals or otherwise good offensice chances. Whenever Lundmark has played w/ other offensive players, he has looked very good.

"if lundmark was so good than he should make the players around him better."

This is the biggest crock of crap that I've seen in a while. VERY FEW players in the league qualify as those who make players around them better. Sakic, Forsberg, Heatly, Modano, etc. These players are not just superstars, but SUPERSTARS. Other then those type of players, very few players make other players around them "better". No one is saying that Lundmark is a superstar. But if you want him to develop into anything other than a 3rd/4th line grinder, why not give him a shot w/ the top lines? What purpose does it do to see a 43 year old carcass skate w/ top lines? NONE. Season is over, at least see what happens if Jaime plays w/ other skilled players.
2 goals in 11 minutes of play. give me 11 mintues and i can do that. garth murray can do that anybody can do that. lundmark is a bust if you want to think there is a huge differance between lacoutore and ortmeryer and simon barnaby than think that. i don't and a reasonable person wouldn't either. you are what your production says you are. this kid has almost zero to offer this team. Dube was a better player.

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02-27-2004, 01:35 PM
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Well SOS i will give you this much, you are certainly a person of strong convictions.

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02-27-2004, 04:24 PM
  #21
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how old is he? come on guys!!! isn't it a bit early. todd bertuzzi didn't live up to expectations until he was like 26.

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02-27-2004, 07:17 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
2 goals in 11 minutes of play. give me 11 mintues and i can do that.
I can guarantee you that I can get you 11 minutes a night, every night in the NHL and you will never score 2 goals in a lifetime.

"garth murray can do that anybody can do that. "

Again, you are ducking questions. Name me a rookie or 2 that play maybe 10 minutes a night on the team's 4th line and create instant offense by playing w/ nothing but 4th liners. Just a few names if you don't mind, and make sure that these are players playing exclusively on the 4th line.

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02-27-2004, 08:06 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by True Blue
I can guarantee you that I can get you 11 minutes a night, every night in the NHL and you will never score 2 goals in a lifetime.

"garth murray can do that anybody can do that. "

Again, you are ducking questions. Name me a rookie or 2 that play maybe 10 minutes a night on the team's 4th line and create instant offense by playing w/ nothing but 4th liners. Just a few names if you don't mind, and make sure that these are players playing exclusively on the 4th line.
you never asked me a question about lundmark. in order to duck a question i need to be asked first. i can guarantee i would score 2 goals if i got 11 minutes a night. frankly that will never happen so i can guarantee i would score 50 goals in 50 games. :p

ok here is my list of players btw lundmark hasn't played exclusively on the fourth line. are you saying he has not taken a shift once on any other line? if you would like i can explain what exclusive means to you.
anaheim
Joffrey Lupul-plays with.............Petr Schastlivy and jason krog
in 57 games he has 11g 14a
calgary
Chuck Kobasew-plays with...........oliwa and yelle
in 51 games has 5g 9a

buffalo
derek roy-plays with..........pyatt and mair
has 3g 8a. and that is in 31 games less than lundmark

if you want other examples i will go on. sorry to answer you question. i'm sorry my friend but lundmark does suck. if sather trades one guy at the deadline i hope it is that waste of space. lundmark has little talent and awful hands. you want to talk heart at least messier gives it his all on every shift which is a lot more than lundmark. name his last scoring chance? lundmark has done nothing since he came back from the injury. NOTHING

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02-27-2004, 09:19 PM
  #24
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Reality lies somewhere between both of you.

1) It is possible that Lundmark is not as good as people projected when he was draft high in the first round in '99. Personally he is not as fast as I think he needs to be, and he seems easily muscled off the puck.

2) Lundmark hasnt been given a fair shot. He moves from center to wing to center and back again and back again. He plays great n the top 3 lines just to get bumped back to the 4th line, get 4 minutes of ice tiem in the following game, or constanly being bumped down the depth chart by inferior players acquired via trade of FA.

One thing that needs to be put to rest is that lundmark IS NOT Malhotra. And by that I dont just mean Lundmark has shown in past leagues that he can be a scoring threat. I think Lundmark has shown flashes of being an NHL scoring threat. And with the team in the position that it is, why not just let him play?

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02-28-2004, 12:13 AM
  #25
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i think the malhotra comments are more about development time and not about style.

but you pretty much just summed up what i said in an earlier post.

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