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Greene signs 5 year extension with Kings

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Old
10-18-2008, 10:28 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
Well many people seem to be using Greene's last 4 games as evidence that he is better than he use to be and will be worth $2.95 million/year. But let's look at the facts. After 4 games here are Greene's stats......

GP: 4 G: 0 A: 0 PTS: 0 +/-: -2 PIM: 7 Hits: 8 Blk Shots: 9

If you projected these stats over an entire season you would get.....

GP: 82 G: 0 A: 0 PTS: 0 +/-: -41 PIM: 144 Hits: 164 Blk Shots: 185

So basically the only two areas that Greene is even good at is hits and blocking shots. Is that enough to justify spending $3 million/year?
I can't think of a sarcastic comment or metaphor that applies to this
so...
Greene's play won't show up on the stats

He is a defensive defenseman...


SORRY FANTASY LEAGUERS


I thought since you were, you know, a Kings fan so you should have seen those 4 games to form the judgement on
right?

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10-18-2008, 10:34 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
Well many people seem to be using Greene's last 4 games as evidence that he is better than he use to be and will be worth $2.95 million/year. But let's look at the facts. After 4 games here are Greene's stats......

GP: 4 G: 0 A: 0 PTS: 0 +/-: -2 PIM: 7 Hits: 8 Blk Shots: 9

If you projected these stats over an entire season you would get.....

GP: 82 G: 0 A: 0 PTS: 0 +/-: -41 PIM: 144 Hits: 164 Blk Shots: 185

So basically the only two areas that Greene is even good at is hits and blocking shots. Is that enough to justify spending $3 million/year?
Once again if you expect him to put up points youre going to be dissappointed. Just like some were disappointed when Matti was here and his offensive output. Hes not here to put up points but to hit, block shots and make life ghell for opposing forwards which he seems to be doing. Im not saying this is necessarily a good or bad signging, Im just waiting to see what his play is like when hes actually playing on that contract.

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10-18-2008, 10:56 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Once again if you expect him to put up points youre going to be dissappointed. Just like some were disappointed when Matti was here and his offensive output. Hes not here to put up points but to hit, block shots and make life ghell for opposing forwards which he seems to be doing. Im not saying this is necessarily a good or bad signging, Im just waiting to see what his play is like when hes actually playing on that contract.
I do not disagree with your "wait and see" attitude. I am just saying based on what he has already done he has not shown that he is worth it. I have absolutely no expectations of offense from Greene. But he is still a -2 after four games and his only redeeming qualities right now are his hits and his blocked shots. In my opinion if those are the only two things you bring then you are not worth $3 million/year. There are plenty of guys making less than $1 million/year that can do those two things just as well, if not better than Greene.

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10-18-2008, 10:58 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
I do not disagree with your "wait and see" attitude. I am just saying based on what he has already done he has not shown that he is worth it. I have absolutely no expectations of offense from Greene. But he is still a -2 after four games and his only redeeming qualities right now are his hits and his blocked shots. In my opinion if those are the only two things you bring then you are not worth $3 million/year. There are plenty of guys making less than $1 million/year that can do those two things just as well, if not better than Greene.
To be fair, +/- is an indication of team play, and Greene was used to shutdown, not to compliment the offense, which I think would skew the +/- totals

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10-18-2008, 11:00 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by LAX attack View Post
I can't think of a sarcastic comment or metaphor that applies to this
so...
Greene's play won't show up on the stats

He is a defensive defenseman...


SORRY FANTASY LEAGUERS


I thought since you were, you know, a Kings fan so you should have seen those 4 games to form the judgement on
right?
Last time I checked hits, blocked shots, take-aways, give-aways and +/- were all stats that can, and do show the effectiveness of defensive defensemen. Right now Greene's stats in those regards are decent. But not anything to right home about. Also I have seen every game that Greene has played in. He is a decent defenseman....but I have seen nothing from him that would make me want to pay him $3 million.

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10-18-2008, 11:04 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by LAX attack View Post
To be fair, +/- is an indication of team play, and Greene was used to shutdown, not to compliment the offense, which I think would skew the +/- totals
The +/- stat is both a group stat and an individual stat. Is it a coincidence that many of the best defensemen and defensive forwards are consistently at the top of the league in the +/- category?

If you get a minus then your team got scored on.....if you are a defensive defenseman then you were one of the people most responsible for preventing that goal. So in this case it can reflect the ability of the player.

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10-18-2008, 11:22 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
The +/- stat is both a group stat and an individual stat. Is it a coincidence that many of the best defensemen and defensive forwards are consistently at the top of the league in the +/- category?

If you get a minus then your team got scored on.....if you are a defensive defenseman then you were one of the people most responsible for preventing that goal. So in this case it can reflect the ability of the player.
What I'm saying is that a lot of the Kings goals are on the powerplay, so it makes reasonable sense that Greene wouldnt be on the ice for those goals, which would obviously skew the +/-

Though I dont remember if you even get +'s for PP goals...

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10-18-2008, 11:27 PM
  #108
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Lombardi obviously sees something in him, he was given an A ahead of several more established players in the team too. I'm not too worried about his new contract though, It's good that Lombardi is locking in the players that he wants to build the team around to long term contracts.

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10-18-2008, 11:46 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by LAX attack View Post
What I'm saying is that a lot of the Kings goals are on the powerplay, so it makes reasonable sense that Greene wouldnt be on the ice for those goals, which would obviously skew the +/-

Though I dont remember if you even get +'s for PP goals...
I agree, also Greene is going to play a lot of minutes against the best players in the league, and goals are going to happen. He won't be used on the PP or in too many offensive situations, if any. This will skew the statistic. I mean, if he is one of two or three guys half way through the season then that can indicate a bit of a problem, but if he hovers around -8 I would consider that about fair if the team is playing around .500 hockey. If he is -15 or -20 and we are winning lots of games, I'll be more concerned.

I think it's you get a + for PP goals but no - for being scored on during the PK.

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10-19-2008, 12:38 AM
  #110
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I agree, also Greene is going to play a lot of minutes against the best players in the league, and goals are going to happen. He won't be used on the PP or in too many offensive situations, if any. This will skew the statistic. I mean, if he is one of two or three guys half way through the season then that can indicate a bit of a problem, but if he hovers around -8 I would consider that about fair if the team is playing around .500 hockey. If he is -15 or -20 and we are winning lots of games, I'll be more concerned.

I think it's you get a + for PP goals but no - for being scored on during the PK.
Actually a player only gets a plus if his team scores at even strength or while short handed. A player only gets a minus is the opponents score at even strength or while they are short handed.

So whether or not Greene is used on the power play or on the penalty kill is insignificant. Also being a minus player usually means your team is losing more games than it is winning....not all of the time....but most of the time this is the case.

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10-19-2008, 12:41 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
Actually a player only gets a plus if his team scores at even strength or while short handed. A player only gets a minus is the opponents score at even strength or while they are short handed.

So whether or not Greene is used on the power play or on the penalty kill is insignificant. Also being a minus player usually means your team is losing more games than it is winning....not all of the time....but most of the time this is the case.
well the team is at .500, so I dont think we can judge Greene on his +/- quite yet

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10-19-2008, 12:41 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Captain Ron View Post
Well many people seem to be using Greene's last 4 games as evidence that he is better than he use to be and will be worth $2.95 million/year. But let's look at the facts. After 4 games here are Greene's stats......

GP: 4 G: 0 A: 0 PTS: 0 +/-: -2 PIM: 7 Hits: 8 Blk Shots: 9

If you projected these stats over an entire season you would get.....

GP: 82 G: 0 A: 0 PTS: 0 +/-: -41 PIM: 144 Hits: 164 Blk Shots: 185

So basically the only two areas that Greene is even good at is hits and blocking shots. Is that enough to justify spending $3 million/year?
I doubt that the plus/minus ends up that bad. Other than that we used to pay Norstrom $4M a season to do the same thing.

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10-19-2008, 01:06 AM
  #113
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I doubt that the plus/minus ends up that bad. Other than that we used to pay Norstrom $4M a season to do the same thing.
You are correct. But Norstrom was with the team for 7 years before he got that contract. I believe the $4 million was more a reward for past services and loyalty more than future accomplishments. If Norstrom would have gotten $4 million/year when he first was traded to LA there would have been a lot of people opposed to it.

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10-19-2008, 08:22 AM
  #114
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No sorry, defensemen can never improve after 21

No, Grebeshkov still sucks, and its just that the Edmonton defense is worse than the Kings defense
Grebeshkov has shown real progression in his game over a full season, and he still doesn't deserve a longterm deal at $3mill/yr IMO, however he's had a full good year under his belt - something that can not be said for Greene.

once Greene shows that same type of progression, he's more comparable to Grebeshkov.

my whole point isn't that Greene can't improve - I've even said that it'd be great for the Kings and him if he does... my point is that he hasn't shown enough in his progression for enough length of time (not even a quarter of a season!) to justify a longterm deal at those $$... not sure why that's so hard to understand here??

again, McIver is playing well for the Ducks right now... if he has another 2-3 good games where he's showing he has the potential to be a quality shutdown type dman, do you give him a 5-yr deal at those $$?? like Greene he hasn't shown anything more than #6 potential in his career so far, and a few games - IMO - do not justify giving a longterm big money deal to a guy who's never shown much upside in the past.

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10-19-2008, 08:25 AM
  #115
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You obviously missed the point that those guys broke out at the same age Greene currently is.

And how is it completely irrelevant that his contract doesnt kick in until next year? Hes not getting that money right now. How about judging the contract whens hes actually getting paid on it. For all we know he could have a stellar year and shown that hes going to earn that contract. Everyone wants to use lasy year when he was injured and his first 2 years in the league as a basis on what he might be. Right now hes playing 20+ minutes a night against some top level guys and hes handling it well. Yes he play could tail off and on the other hand it could very well stay the same or rise.

And when will people quit comparing his deal to guys who are offensive players? The Edlers, Gilberts etc are all offensive minded guys. I dont expect Greene to put up alot of points because its not his game. All I want is for the guy to be solid in his own end and play physical which he is doing. If he doesnt show any improvement at all this year then I will have something to say about his contract. But until then Im not going to judge it either way.

But since youre the expert on his career you already know what hes going to turn into right? Since he was a part time guy last year playing 46 games and all. Oh wait a minute he only played 46 games because of a broken ankle you say?? The year before he played 78 games in his first full year in the NHL second year as a pro. But wait he only played because of several injuries right? What injuries were those? Tjarnqvist? One guy who misses half the season isnt going to lead to a guy playing in nearly all his teams games. And then you want to bring up his 27 games after being called up from the minors? Oh wait a minute thats his first pro year out of college. Nice try on trying to demean the guys play by totally going the wrong way.
again you're missing the entire point here.

those guys actually showed progression in their games for much longer periods of time than Greene has. Did Greene have the type of full seasons those guys did before getting his contract like they did?? that's the whole point here!!!

and that's why it's irrevalant that his contract doesn't kick in till next year... he got that contract now, without showing that progression for any sustained period of time. In 10 games he could revert back to the #6/7 dman he's been and show no signs of improving, as in the past...

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10-19-2008, 01:16 PM
  #116
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again you're missing the entire point here.

those guys actually showed progression in their games for much longer periods of time than Greene has. Did Greene have the type of full seasons those guys did before getting his contract like they did?? that's the whole point here!!!

and that's why it's irrevalant that his contract doesn't kick in till next year... he got that contract now, without showing that progression for any sustained period of time. In 10 games he could revert back to the #6/7 dman he's been and show no signs of improving, as in the past...
Im not missing anything here. Youre comparing his deal to offensive minded defensemens deals. Those guys could plateau or regress just as easily as Greene could and those deals could look even worse than Greene's.


What progression does he need to make? His offensive game isnt going to get any better so thats out. From his play so far hes making smart plays doing his job. He blocks shots hits and makes life for opposing forwards in the zone hard. You know things that a defenseman are supposed to do. Ill wait and judge this contract till after the season and see how Greene has progressed to call it a good or bad one.

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10-19-2008, 01:25 PM
  #117
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Terrible Deal.

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10-19-2008, 01:28 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Im not missing anything here. Youre comparing his deal to offensive minded defensemens deals. Those guys could plateau or regress just as easily as Greene could and those deals could look even worse than Greene's.


What progression does he need to make? His offensive game isnt going to get any better so thats out. From his play so far hes making smart plays doing his job. He blocks shots hits and makes life for opposing forwards in the zone hard. You know things that a defenseman are supposed to do. Ill wait and judge this contract till after the season and see how Greene has progressed to call it a good or bad one.
That is the thing though....you are saying wait and make a judgment. Dean gave the guy a 5 year contract after 3 NHL games. Where is Dean's "wait and see" attitude? Dean could have (should have) waited until Greene played at least 30 or 40 games to proclaim that Greene was going to be one of the top paid defensemen on the Kings for the next 5 years (as of right now he will be the highest paid defenseman on the Kings in 2009-10). And just to make it clear the Kings lost 2 of those 3 games that Greene supposedly looked so good in.

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10-19-2008, 01:56 PM
  #119
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That is the thing though....you are saying wait and make a judgment. Dean gave the guy a 5 year contract after 3 NHL games. Where is Dean's "wait and see" attitude? Dean could have (should have) waited until Greene played at least 30 or 40 games to proclaim that Greene was going to be one of the top paid defensemen on the Kings for the next 5 years (as of right now he will be the highest paid defenseman on the Kings in 2009-10). And just to make it clear the Kings lost 2 of those 3 games that Greene supposedly looked so good in.
Or maybe DL, being the GM sees alot more of what happens than fans do. Did he jump the gun in signing him to a deal? Possibly but its also why Im going to wait to pass judgement on the deal.

Youre right the Kings did lose 2 of those 3 games. One game he played 20 minutes in a 3-1 loss. The next game he played 20 in a 1-0 loss. One game he was a -1 the other game he was even. Yet in those 2 games he made no glaring mistakes and played his style of hockey. Greene wasnt the cause of those losses.

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10-19-2008, 02:33 PM
  #120
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Or maybe DL, being the GM sees alot more of what happens than fans do. Did he jump the gun in signing him to a deal? Possibly but its also why Im going to wait to pass judgement on the deal.

Youre right the Kings did lose 2 of those 3 games. One game he played 20 minutes in a 3-1 loss. The next game he played 20 in a 1-0 loss. One game he was a -1 the other game he was even. Yet in those 2 games he made no glaring mistakes and played his style of hockey. Greene wasnt the cause of those losses.
I did not say he was the cause of those losses but the Kings gave up a total of 4 goals in those two games. One could have been prevented by Greene. I am not saying he needs to be perfect. But he did not do anything in any of those 3 games that I felt was deserving of a 5 year extension either.

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10-19-2008, 02:43 PM
  #121
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Visnovksy is the most overpayed player in the league

ha! you pay 7 million for a 40 point defensman that doesnt give a **** and plays god-awful defense? Pitiful
For real? If you examine the trade between LA and the Oil, it was a 2 for 1 because we had too many NHL ready forwards. The open spot went to Pouliot (I'm using him for cap number's sake). So if you examine it as,

Pouliot (.825) and Vis (5.6) IN

for

Stoll (3.6) and Greene (2.95) OUT

You'll see the money works the same way, but I'm sure 90% of hockey fans would want one pair over the other (I'll leave the guess work to you).

I was always a fan of Greene in terms of character and leadership, as well as the physicality he always brings, but I don't see how this contract is a good thing for the Kings. In a best case scenario (and I'm talking very optimistic), he lives up to the deal. There is no conceivable way he ever plays above his contract, IMO.

However, there are so many ways I could see the contract becoming DL's albatross.

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10-19-2008, 03:05 PM
  #122
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I did not say he was the cause of those losses but the Kings gave up a total of 4 goals in those two games. One could have been prevented by Greene. I am not saying he needs to be perfect. But he did not do anything in any of those 3 games that I felt was deserving of a 5 year extension either.
And if he doesnt sign him to an extension hes gets ripped on. Greene fills a spot on the blueline that the Kings didnt have the last few years and only have 1 similar player in the pipeline. Hes young and fits in with the core. You say he doesnt need to be perfect yet he was on the ice for 1 goal against one of the best teams in the league. And thats not good enough? How about what he brings to the PK? 2nd on the team in PK icetime on a pk that hasnt given up a goal yet. Hes been a big part of that success. Hes a better player than some seem to want to give him credit for.

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10-19-2008, 04:35 PM
  #123
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And if he doesnt sign him to an extension hes gets ripped on.
If Dean did not sign Greene to an extension by next August he would be ripped on. There is absolutely no advantage to signing a guy to a long term, high money contract at this point in time. If Greene proves he is worth the money then Dean could have signed the exact same contract in 9 months. If Greene proves he is not worth the money then Dean could have signed him for much less in 9 months.


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Originally Posted by kingpest19 View Post
Greene fills a spot on the blueline that the Kings didnt have the last few years and only have 1 similar player in the pipeline. Hes young and fits in with the core. You say he doesnt need to be perfect yet he was on the ice for 1 goal against one of the best teams in the league. And thats not good enough? How about what he brings to the PK? 2nd on the team in PK icetime on a pk that hasnt given up a goal yet. Hes been a big part of that success. Hes a better player than some seem to want to give him credit for.
It has only been 4 games!!!!

What if over the next 4 games the Kings give up 16 goals and Greene is responsible for half of them? Would you still be singing his praises? 4 games is not enough to project the next 5 years of a players production. If Dean would have signed Brian Boyle to a 5 year $3 million/year contract based on what he did in 8 games last year he would look like an idiot right now.

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10-19-2008, 06:01 PM
  #124
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If Dean did not sign Greene to an extension by next August he would be ripped on. There is absolutely no advantage to signing a guy to a long term, high money contract at this point in time. If Greene proves he is worth the money then Dean could have signed the exact same contract in 9 months. If Greene proves he is not worth the money then Dean could have signed him for much less in 9 months.




It has only been 4 games!!!!

What if over the next 4 games the Kings give up 16 goals and Greene is responsible for half of them? Would you still be singing his praises? 4 games is not enough to project the next 5 years of a players production. If Dean would have signed Brian Boyle to a 5 year $3 million/year contract based on what he did in 8 games last year he would look like an idiot right now.
And if his play continues or gets better or you still going to be trashing his play? Obviously DL sees something in his play and behind the scenes that he feels offering this deal is warranted. And there you go with his production. Guess what theres not going to me much production there, just like when Norstrom was here. Hes not a point producer but a physical stay at home guy who is young, which is something the Kings have lacked. Keep thinking hes going to put up points and you are always going to be disappointed with his play.

There most definitely could be an advantage to signing him to a deal like this right now. This very well could be his breakout year and if not under contract could walk away for more money than he signed for. Contracts get more and more expensive every year. It very well could have cost him more after the season to sign him to that deal. And when players sign deals that give up UFA years the price goes up. Especially when that player gives up thsoe years before reaching them.

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10-19-2008, 06:11 PM
  #125
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I think Greene will live up to the contract.

He's not a terribly fast skater, but he's not a total plodder like some have impled. He can skate backwards well enough that he doesn't get pyloned very often at all, and his defensive awareness is superb.

Greene will have some trouble when he overhandles the puck, and he needs to learn that less is usually more for a guy with his stickhandling ability. He is capable of delivering a decent breakout pass though, and he doesn't pass it onto the other team's stick. His decision making is sound, he just needs the game to slow down for him a touch more and then he's a bigger version of Jason Smith.

He's got the heart of a lion, is a natural leader, and is well liked in the room. Perhaps the contract won't ever be a steal, but I have a hard time imagining it will go down as a bust.

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