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Who do You Want as Coach

View Poll Results: Who Should Coach the Flyers
Pat Burns 26 20.31%
Ted Nolan 33 25.78%
Craig Berube 1 0.78%
John Tortorella 29 22.66%
Paul Maurice 6 4.69%
John Stevens 17 13.28%
Pat Quinn 9 7.03%
Other 7 5.47%
Voters: 128. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-18-2008, 11:26 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
BTW Jester, name me 10 defenses that are unequivocally more talented than ours.

I'll give you.

1) NYR
2) Anaheim
3) Montreal
4) Detroit
5) Dallas
6) San Jose

I might have forgotten 1 or 2, but name me 4 more and explain to me, player by player, how they are more talented.
I'd say Nashville and Vancouver definitely have better full units than Philly. Calgary, probably does as well. I even think Pittsburgh, when healthy, has a better top 6 D.

Sorry to butt in.

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10-18-2008, 11:32 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by CanadianFlyer88 View Post
I'd say Nashville and Vancouver definitely have better full units than Philly. Calgary, probably does as well. I even think Pittsburgh, when healthy, has a better top 6 D.

Sorry to butt in.
You could make an argument that Florida's defense is better than ours as well.

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10-18-2008, 11:59 PM
  #78
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I just saw that Stevens ripped the leaders of the team behind close doors, and again in the news. Not only taht he benched Downie in the third for taking a penalty when Knuble cant even skate with the puck.

Honestly whats the difference between all of that crap and the way Tortorella runs? Atleast with Torts he holds all his players accountable.

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10-19-2008, 12:26 AM
  #79
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You could make an argument that Florida's defense is better than ours as well.
True enough.

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Old
10-19-2008, 01:04 AM
  #80
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her?
she wears glasses.

Sexy pick.


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Old
10-19-2008, 01:44 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Pat Burns. The guy makes iffy defenses look solid, gets the best out of his players and he's also a coach who likes up tempo hockey. If Burns isn't available, Tortorella would be the next guy. After Tortorella, I'd take Pat Quinn. People can say what they want about Quinn, but the guy knows how to coach and can get the job done. If there's a wild card I'd consider, Keith Acton would be that guy. There's someone who should be a head coach in this league, but for some reason, no one will give him a chance.

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10-19-2008, 10:12 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
I just saw that Stevens ripped the leaders of the team behind close doors, and again in the news. Not only taht he benched Downie in the third for taking a penalty when Knuble cant even skate with the puck.

Honestly whats the difference between all of that crap and the way Tortorella runs? Atleast with Torts he holds all his players accountable.
Torts is louder.

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Old
10-19-2008, 10:17 AM
  #83
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The whole 'shots' thing was tired last year. The Flyers gave up significantly FEWER shots from the 'danger zone'. Giving up 25-30 shots a night from the boards or the top of the zone at the blue line means nothing.
Last year, when I crunched the numbers over the last few years you admitted that there was noticeable correlation between shot dif and a teams success. What you're doing right there is just rationalizing.

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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Nashville I'll give you, and Calgary, but Colorado doesn't have a single top-pairing guy, so no thank you.
Scott Hannan is a top pairing defensive D on almost every team in the league. In Foote they got a 2nd pairing guy to do the same job as him for that group. They got some offense in a guy like Liles, and the rest of the D is legit NHL defensemen. Maybe not the flash of the Flyers, but 1-6 they're better at doing the job defensively than what we have here.

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And Pittsburgh has an overabundance of offensive d-men. Gonchar may have had his career year last year, has played heavy, heavy minutes for the last 5 years, and will be 35 by the end of the year. Whitney can't play defense, -2 last year on the best team in the ECF.
Gonchar's negatives get spoken of more than his positives and people lose sight of the fact that he doesn't just do some thing well, he does some things better than almost everyone else in the league. Like, scoring points on the PP.

Whitney most definitely has his ups and downs, but he's had 38, 59, and 40 point campaigns from the back end. Pair him with someone who will stay home, and you've got a nice pairing. And Whitney is prone to Jones-esque brain farts, it isn't so much that he can't play defense...it's that he's inconsistent.

Fill that in with Orpik -- who emerged last year -- and a guy like Gill, who is fine for the role he's playing there...and the young guys they have coming up with a lot more talent than some of the folks here...you have a defense I'd argue is better than ours.

Someone suggested Florida...that's probably true to.

You pull Timonen off of this defense and it's not just average, it's among the worst in the league. One player doesn't get you to the top tier.

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10-19-2008, 11:02 AM
  #84
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Tie between nolan ant torts...


I went with torts because his name sounds like an italian dish or unlevened spanish bread

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10-19-2008, 11:06 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Once again, with that avatar you sport, your hockey knowledge comes under great scrutiny.
Dont even give him the benefit of a response to crap like that....

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Old
10-19-2008, 04:23 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
The players can make a genius coach look awful or a moron look great.
And vice versa.

The flip-side to that coin is that a coach can make an awful team look good or a great team look mediocre. It cuts both ways.

I didn't vote on who I would like to see coach this team because, to be quite honest, I don't have a clue who would be the best guy, and I won't pretend to know otherwise.

What I DO KNOW though, is that Torts, Burns and Nolan would all be better choices than Stevens at this juncture.

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10-19-2008, 04:33 PM
  #87
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I really have no idea.

Lets just steal Jacques Lemaire, he'll get our **** defense in order. lol

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10-19-2008, 04:34 PM
  #88
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Where's the love for the Chief???


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10-19-2008, 04:43 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Last year, when I crunched the numbers over the last few years you admitted that there was noticeable correlation between shot dif and a teams success. What you're doing right there is just rationalizing.



Scott Hannan is a top pairing defensive D on almost every team in the league. In Foote they got a 2nd pairing guy to do the same job as him for that group. They got some offense in a guy like Liles, and the rest of the D is legit NHL defensemen. Maybe not the flash of the Flyers, but 1-6 they're better at doing the job defensively than what we have here.



Gonchar's negatives get spoken of more than his positives and people lose sight of the fact that he doesn't just do some thing well, he does some things better than almost everyone else in the league. Like, scoring points on the PP.

Whitney most definitely has his ups and downs, but he's had 38, 59, and 40 point campaigns from the back end. Pair him with someone who will stay home, and you've got a nice pairing. And Whitney is prone to Jones-esque brain farts, it isn't so much that he can't play defense...it's that he's inconsistent.

Fill that in with Orpik -- who emerged last year -- and a guy like Gill, who is fine for the role he's playing there...and the young guys they have coming up with a lot more talent than some of the folks here...you have a defense I'd argue is better than ours.

Someone suggested Florida...that's probably true to.

You pull Timonen off of this defense and it's not just average, it's among the worst in the league. One player doesn't get you to the top tier.
Correlation <> Causation.

And there is data out there that shows the Flyers were giving up more outside shots than most teams.

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Old
10-19-2008, 04:44 PM
  #90
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My net connection is in and out and I already lost a longer response, but to sum up..

1) Orpik has been a 3rd pairing D all his career except for 2 months last year in a contract year and now he's a great shutdown d-man? Okay.

2) Whitney is a nice PP guy, but an ES liability who can be exploited as is Letang. A team like the Flyers with bodies like Gagne, Richie, Downie, Hartnell, Carter, Upshall, Cote, Asham, and Lupul should be able to forecheck the hell out of guys like Goligoski, Letang, and Whitney.

3) The Kimmo argument is dumb. If you take away any team's top d-man, it really hurts their defense. Florida is an average/below average D w/out J-Bouw, Detroit is an average D without Lidstrom, Calgary is an average/below-average D without Phaneuf.

4) If Hannan is a top-pairing D, Coburn definitely is.

Even when you put in FLA and Nashville, that leaves the Flyers around 10th in the league. I would define "bad" as being in the bottom quarter of the league if you have 4 levels of 'good', 'above average', 'below average', 'bad'.

So the Flyers are in the middle of the above average category.

And the problem right now is team defense. Look, Boston's defense last year sucked, but they kept things tight, got solid goaltending, and made the playoffs.

I mean, they had a good top pairing that played 25 minutes per night and then a load of crap on the other 2 pairings and they still finished 11th in the league in GAA.

If that piece of crap D (I mean that in the nicest possible way) can achieve that, there's no reason why we can't either outside of coaching and possibly goaltending although I don't think goaltending is the main issue here.

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Old
10-19-2008, 04:44 PM
  #91
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Where's the love for the Chief???

You can't be serious?

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10-19-2008, 04:46 PM
  #92
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You can't be serious?
No, god no!

Just noticed he didn't have a single vote and thought I'd make a crack about it.

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10-19-2008, 04:47 PM
  #93
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No, god no!

Just noticed he didn't have a single vote and thought I'd make a crack about it.
Haha, okay. Phew!

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10-19-2008, 04:56 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
My net connection is in and out and I already lost a longer response, but to sum up..

1) Orpik has been a 3rd pairing D all his career except for 2 months last year in a contract year and now he's a great shutdown d-man? Okay.
Who said anything about "great?" I said he emerged. He's been a quality, physical, defensive D for them...throughout the 2nd half of last year and was an absolute beast for them in the playoffs.

Who do we have on our team right now that really is a "shutdown D" of any sorts. Name one. Timonen isn't: he's a two-way guy with good defensive skills, but a shutdown guy he is not. Coburn isn't: still learning and is a no. 3 in reality. Parent? Rookie. Jones, Eminger, Alberts, Kukkonen...hell, maybe it's Sbisa.

We don't have one. Fact of the matter is that Orpik would have been a HUGE addition to this team as they let Smith walk and were in the process of ditching Hatcher.

Quote:
2) Whitney is a nice PP guy, but an ES liability who can be exploited as is Letang. A team like the Flyers with bodies like Gagne, Richie, Downie, Hartnell, Carter, Upshall, Cote, Asham, and Lupul should be able to forecheck the hell out of guys like Goligoski, Letang, and Whitney.
...so, why did they take us out so easily last year if we can own their D so easily?

You see the weaknesses of others far more easily than you see the weaknesses of the Flyers.

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3) The Kimmo argument is dumb. If you take away any team's top d-man, it really hurts their defense. Florida is an average/below average D w/out J-Bouw, Detroit is an average D without Lidstrom, Calgary is an average/below-average D without Phaneuf.
Not really...most of those Ds don't drop to bottom 5 in the league, which ours does, IMO.

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4) If Hannan is a top-pairing D, Coburn definitely is.
Coburn has not looked good at all to this point in the season outside of last night...when he got paired with Timonen.

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Even when you put in FLA and Nashville, that leaves the Flyers around 10th in the league. I would define "bad" as being in the bottom quarter of the league if you have 4 levels of 'good', 'above average', 'below average', 'bad'.
There are a whole host of teams you can like or dislike more than the Flyers in the middle of the pack. They're not clearly above anyone in the mediocre group.

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So the Flyers are in the middle of the above average category.
Yay...?

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And the problem right now is team defense. Look, Boston's defense last year sucked, but they kept things tight, got solid goaltending, and made the playoffs.

I mean, they had a good top pairing that played 25 minutes per night and then a load of crap on the other 2 pairings and they still finished 11th in the league in GAA.

If that piece of crap D (I mean that in the nicest possible way) can achieve that, there's no reason why we can't either outside of coaching and possibly goaltending although I don't think goaltending is the main issue here.
Boston wasn't very good...is that what we're aspiring to be? I want to win a Cup, not be a team struggling to get out of the first round.

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Old
10-19-2008, 05:00 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Storm in a Teacup View Post
Haha, okay. Phew!
If I had my say...

Torts, Nolan, Burns. (In that order)

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10-19-2008, 05:00 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Correlation <> Causation.
gimme an effing break dude...that's just pathetic equivocation.

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And there is data out there that shows the Flyers were giving up more outside shots than most teams.
Shocking, given that we give up more shots than most teams. Also, does such data take into account things such as traffic in front of the net? For example, last night the Sharks were firing from up high because they had two forwards in front of Nitty at all times (something even my g/f picked up on).

However, the fact of the matter is that you, yourself admitted that there was pretty strong correlation between the unmarked category of shot dif amongst teams and their success.

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10-19-2008, 05:11 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Who said anything about "great?" I said he emerged. He's been a quality, physical, defensive D for them...throughout the 2nd half of last year and was an absolute beast for them in the playoffs.

Who do we have on our team right now that really is a "shutdown D" of any sorts. Name one. Timonen isn't: he's a two-way guy with good defensive skills, but a shutdown guy he is not. Coburn isn't: still learning and is a no. 3 in reality. Parent? Rookie. Jones, Eminger, Alberts, Kukkonen...hell, maybe it's Sbisa.

We don't have one. Fact of the matter is that Orpik would have been a HUGE addition to this team as they let Smith walk and were in the process of ditching Hatcher.
Emerged? I would call that playing for money and also getting f'ing lucky that the Pens went on a huge hot streak. Also, I know you say Parent is a rookie, but he has a year of pro hockey under his belt and has performed well for most of it. It's my belief that the organization was counting on him to become a solid No.4-No.5 shutdown guy by the end of the year.

I also note that you conveniently left Vaananen off your list who pretty much defines the term shutdown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
...so, why did they take us out so easily last year if we can own their D so easily?

You see the weaknesses of others far more easily than you see the weaknesses of the Flyers.
Part of it is losing the top-2 D, but part of it is also that we as a team freaking suck at forechecking, something I complained about all the time in GDTs last year. Forechecking takes commitment, effort, and physicality.

The Flyers have the tools in place. The forwards are big, fast, and talented. They should be able to pin teams in their own end. A Hartnell-Richards-Lupul/Downie line for example should be able to really put pressure on other teams. But they don't consistently do it.

Somebody needs to light fire under their collective ***** and get them moving.

And I obviously wouldn't call the Flyers D a strength of the team, it's not, it's a spot that needs to be improved.. If you put the exact same D in the Cup Finals against Detroit right now, it would be a loss no doubt. But Holmgren has gotten some of these pieces together (Eminger, Parent, Vaananen) in the hopes of developing them into solid players or in the case of Eminger and Ossi, redeveloping them. I think that's a better course of action than spending 3.5 mill on Jeff Finger or 3.75 mill to Brooks Orpik.

I said at the beginning of the season that this would be a work in progress. You can't expect a guy like Eminger to develop into a top-4 immediately especially when 2 guys who were being counted on to contribute get dropped out of the lineup.

Maybe this group of D isn't good enough. It's certainly a possibility. But we know for damn sure that Stevens isn't good enough. That's a certainty.

You solve the big problem you know exists before you go after the smaller ones.

Personally, I see a group of D that have a lot of good attributes. You have some size, you have speed, you have several guys with good instincts, a couple that don't, you have guys that can pass. I see a lot of raw potential in this group. What you need is someone who can mold them into a cohesive unit, in combination with the forwards.

You see a group that sucks and will continue to suck and I can respect that.

But until we get rid of the primary problem, we really aren't going to know what we have on our hands.

For all the defending of Holmgren I have done, the main problem is staring him in the face and it has been for some time. It's his responsibility to take care of that and if he doesn't, he's failing at his job. Plain and simple.

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10-19-2008, 05:26 PM
  #98
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Emerged? I would call that playing for money and also getting f'ing lucky that the Pens went on a huge hot streak. Also, I know you say Parent is a rookie, but he has a year of pro hockey under his belt and has performed well for most of it. It's my belief that the organization was counting on him to become a solid No.4-No.5 shutdown guy by the end of the year.
Every player in this league is playing for money. Contract years are real things, no doubt. However, contract flops are equally common. I also think Orpik finally found a niche and a style that worked for him. We'll see if he carries that into next year, but I would have loved to see us pick him up.

Parent may be great, but he's not today and there's absolutely zero guarantee he will be tomorrow.

Quote:
I also note that you conveniently left Vaananen off your list who pretty much defines the term shutdown.
Such a stalwart that he played in the SEL last year. Great.

How bad do I think this defense is? I think Stevens deserves slack until it's fixed. I think he's a horrible coach, but I think even a great coach would struggle with this group. Saddling a team with rookies and reclamation projects is praying something works out...it's not fixing problems, it's sweeping them under the rug.

As far as your complaints about the forecheck...I would get used to it with this group of forwards. For the most part, our strong offensive players are front of the net guys offensively. They like to skate, pass, and shoot...not so much dig in the corners and work it to the front of the net. Briere, Gagne, Carter, Lupul, Richards (yes, even him), etc. like to come in with speed and make a play on the rush. And they've been pretty good at scoring off of it, so it's a bit of a red herring.

Offensively, this is a different type of team than Philly is used to.

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10-19-2008, 05:40 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Every player in this league is playing for money. Contract years are real things, no doubt. However, contract flops are equally common. I also think Orpik finally found a niche and a style that worked for him. We'll see if he carries that into next year, but I would have loved to see us pick him up.

Parent may be great, but he's not today and there's absolutely zero guarantee he will be tomorrow.



Such a stalwart that he played in the SEL last year. Great.

How bad do I think this defense is? I think Stevens deserves slack until it's fixed. I think he's a horrible coach, but I think even a great coach would struggle with this group. Saddling a team with rookies and reclamation projects is praying something works out...it's not fixing problems, it's sweeping them under the rug.

As far as your complaints about the forecheck...I would get used to it with this group of forwards. For the most part, our strong offensive players are front of the net guys offensively. They like to skate, pass, and shoot...not so much dig in the corners and work it to the front of the net. Briere, Gagne, Carter, Lupul, Richards (yes, even him), etc. like to come in with speed and make a play on the rush. And they've been pretty good at scoring off of it, so it's a bit of a red herring.

Offensively, this is a different type of team than Philly is used to.
You are the one complaining about cap flexibility and then you want us to sign a guy who's played 303 games and played like a 3rd pairing guy for 270 of them for 4 mill? Okay.

As for Vaananen in the SEL, we've been over it 500x, he broke his leg and went over there to redefine his playing style and work on gaining speed in an environment with less pressure. You're just being obtuse here and while he hasn't set the world alight here, I think he's been generally decent.

And part of a good coach is telling players to do things that they don't want to do. I don't think many guys love forechecking. It's not very glamorous. But this team needs to dump and chase instead of dump and change.

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10-19-2008, 06:07 PM
  #100
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You are the one complaining about cap flexibility and then you want us to sign a guy who's played 303 games and played like a 3rd pairing guy for 270 of them for 4 mill? Okay.
At what point are you simply going to accept that defense is really expensive? That's the way it is. I firmly believe our expenditure is top heavy in forward talent and have no qualms in looking to trade some of that elsewhere to get help on the other side of the bench.

Quote:
As for Vaananen in the SEL, we've been over it 500x, he broke his leg and went over there to redefine his playing style and work on gaining speed in an environment with less pressure. You're just being obtuse here and while he hasn't set the world alight here, I think he's been generally decent.
And, similar to the Eminger story...that's about as rose colored as it gets.

I'm not being obtuse. Guys who you want on your D playing big minutes (a shutdown guy), usually aren't people who leave the league for a year to "refine" their game.

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And part of a good coach is telling players to do things that they don't want to do. I don't think many guys love forechecking. It's not very glamorous. But this team needs to dump and chase instead of dump and change.
Well, that's easy. Something tells me that Gagne and Briere are never, ever going to be strong forecheck players. Lupul and Carter are guys you want firing the puck from the dots...that's their strengths. There's a skill to forechecking, which guys like Hartnell, Knuble, Downie, etc. have, but that doesn't mean you're going to refashion the offense around it.

Dump and chase doesn't have to be the way you go about things. This team wants to play offense off the rush, which is fine, but you need to get the D capable of supporting that style.

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