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Report: Nhl Governors Considering Second Team In Toronto

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Old
10-21-2008, 08:13 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Thats why you don't name them the Hamilton Steelers....

You name them the Ontario _________
That's in addition to the fact that it would kill Buffalo within 10 years.

You just want to see the Habs 6 times a year.


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10-21-2008, 08:14 PM
  #152
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Well, if i put the real reasons why they want to have 2 teams there, and all the economics mumbo jumbo...

I'm all for it, simply cause we would get to make fun of them twice as more than we usually do. <3 laffs

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10-21-2008, 08:30 PM
  #153
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Not a bad idea... but if you're gonna have an "Ontario" team.. wouldn't you put it in the biggest city/capital?
Sunrise Florida is smaller then Tampa isn't it?

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10-21-2008, 08:39 PM
  #154
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Sunrise Florida is smaller then Tampa isn't it?
Sunrise, Fort Lauderdale, Hollywood, etc. are all around 20-30kms from Miami. The Florida Panthers home arena is in the largest population agglomerations in Florida. just outside of Miami.

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10-21-2008, 09:08 PM
  #155
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Now I know why they created TSN2. One station dedicated to each of Toronto's hockey teams.

It's truly pathetic how the Toronto-centric media throws up this smoke screen to hide the fact that the Leafs suck and will not make the playoffs AGAIN. Anybody with half a brain knows that for this plan to work, there would have to major $$$ concessions to MLSE and to Buffalo. Then there's the building of a new rink, franchise fees (if they get a new one) and on and on and on.

Then you would have to convince enough die hard Leaf fans to turn on their "storied" franchise in favor of some retread expansion team from the states or even worse, a brand new expansion franchise with no hope of making the playoffs for the first five years.

If they couldn't convert Leaf fans into Sens fans in Ottawa, they sure as hell won't convert Leaf fans toward a second franchise in Toronto.

At best they could get one in Hamilton or Kitchener/Waterloo but not right in the heart of Leaf nation.

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10-21-2008, 09:34 PM
  #156
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I hope it does happen. The region can support another team and there are a couple of teams in the US that should be moved.

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10-21-2008, 10:49 PM
  #157
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I still can't believe people still think a team in Hamilton is viable...

don't you people realize that having a team in Hamilton makes the NHL look BUSH LEAGUE?

I mean, sorry to burst your collective Canadian bubbles, but the average american doesn't know of or give a **** about Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa. All of those cities are much bigger/better known that Hamilton, yet they make the NHL stick out like a sore thumb if you look at the list of cities in the NHL. I understand that hockey is a "Canadian" sport, and that's why we can get away with it, but still, it's almost embarrassing to think that such small cities have a pro team.

Hamilton is 10 times worse. Having a team in Hamilton would just make the NHL look like some b-league


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10-21-2008, 11:17 PM
  #158
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I must say this is one of the most asinine comments I have seen in my life:

Quote:
“How could we sell a team from Hamilton? Do you think the New York Rangers want to put the Hamilton Steelers on their marquee at Madison Square Garden? Do you think anyone in Manhattan would buy tickets to see them?”
Why would anybody, in their right mind, put an NFL team in a small city with the population of 100,000 (To be fair, the metropolitan area amounts to 282,599) and put that on every NFL Television licensed channel, as well as make merchandise for this puny little place, and expect it to sell? Just because the team is old?

Now, before you say anything, think about it. What makes that franchise worth anything? The city, or the team? That's right: The Team. A team that includes 26 Hall of Famers, 9 NFL Championships, 3 Super Bowls and the most dedicated fanbases in all of sports: the Green Bay Packers.

It doesn't matter if people don't know where Hamilton is while living in Manhattan. I doubt too many Americans know what the hell an Ottawa Senator is, but they still goto the games four times a year. Just like how we don't know how big Columbus is. Afterall, the only major league team Columbus houses (Ohio State is not major league) aside from the Bluejackets is the Columbus Crew. Figure out who they are without being a fan of the sport and without checking a search engine or Wikipedia and you get a cookie.

My point is, no-one gives a rats ass about a franchise until they are given a reason based on the product. So saying that people won't goto Hamilton Steeler games in the MSG is ridiculous. One game where a Steeler player slams into Henrik Lundqvist and takes him out for the rest of the year, and I promise you the next game will be packed. Have the Steelers eliminate the Rangers in the Eastern Conference Finals, the next season game will be packed. Have the Steelers win the Cup, everyone is going to goto the next season game to try to beat the Champs. It's that simple.

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10-21-2008, 11:41 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
Edit: just saw this on the main board
http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...&postcount=127
I listened to the show and the entire time McCowan and his friend (can't remember his name for some reason), were talking about Balisle.

The Globe and Mail article also stated that the franchise would cost $700 million according to McCowan.

Hamilton ranks 9th largest city in Canada.
1) Toronto (Mississauga, and the entire GTA) Ontario 5,113,149
2) Montreal (Laval, Longueuil) Quebec 3,635,571
3) Vancouver (Surrey) British Columbia 2,116,581
4) Ottawa-Gatineau Ontario/Quebec 1,130,761
5) Calgary Alberta 1,079,310
6) Edmonton Alberta 1,034,945
7) Quebec City (Lévis) Quebec 715,515
8) Winnipeg Manitoba 694,668
9) Hamilton (Burlington) Ontario 692,911

How do I know Toronto includes the entire GTA? Simple Vaughn, North York etc aren't on the list.

Does Ontario need a 3rd team? No, but if a multi-billionaire wants one, you do it. And the people of Toronto are not stupid, many many Leaf fans have been complaining for years that they want a single owner, as a board can never accomplish anything.

I really don't care what happens. I want Balisle to have a team, anywhere he wants. He is a HUGE hockey fan, probably a bigger fan that 99% of the other owners.

Toronto doesn't need another team.

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10-22-2008, 01:11 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Roots73 View Post
Now I know why they created TSN2. One station dedicated to each of Toronto's hockey teams.

It's truly pathetic how the Toronto-centric media throws up this smoke screen to hide the fact that the Leafs suck and will not make the playoffs AGAIN. Anybody with half a brain knows that for this plan to work, there would have to major $$$ concessions to MLSE and to Buffalo. Then there's the building of a new rink, franchise fees (if they get a new one) and on and on and on.

Then you would have to convince enough die hard Leaf fans to turn on their "storied" franchise in favor of some retread expansion team from the states or even worse, a brand new expansion franchise with no hope of making the playoffs for the first five years.

If they couldn't convert Leaf fans into Sens fans in Ottawa, they sure as hell won't convert Leaf fans toward a second franchise in Toronto.

At best they could get one in Hamilton or Kitchener/Waterloo but not right in the heart of Leaf nation.
Balsile believes that he doesn't have to pay a dime to Toronto or Buffalo for infringing the territory... and he's willing to go to court to prove it.

Most legal experts who have heard the argument of his lawyers agree that the NHL constitution has no standing in Canada and that the attempt to get him to pay an idemnity fee would not stand in the courts.

However going to court is always a tricky proposition.

But it is not guaranteed that he would even have to pay a Dime to MLSE.

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Originally Posted by ForzaHabs View Post
I listened to the show and the entire time McCowan and his friend (can't remember his name for some reason), were talking about Balisle.

The Globe and Mail article also stated that the franchise would cost $700 million according to McCowan.
McCowan and Jim Kelley also said the 700 million dollar was ludicrous... and there was no way MLSE would see close to that. Also it was more like 500 million as they assumed 200million would be the cost of the franchise (recent sales of the Preds and Lightning).

The NHL has never had one vote on the issue even if it is under their constitution... they didn't have a vote on it when Colorado moved to New Jersey (although they paid an undisclosed sum to three teams Isles, Rangers, Flyers... though its disputed if this was ever even paid....) and the Ducks (paid 50 million for their franchise fee... 25 million split to everyone... 25 million to the Kings; compare this to the Senators, Lightning and Panthers who paid 50 million for their teams and that 150 million was split evenly).

As said nothing is a sure thing in court... but if this ever went through I'm 95% sure they would settle out of court for a small lower fee than 500 million. Probably a fraction of that.

MLSE and Bettman do not want this to get to that point... they have shown they will do everything in their power to avoid Balsille buying a team (see Pitt and Nashville). Now with pressure on Bettman internally do to the Boots Delbaggio situation... and with Tampa's deal in major jeopardy (financing issues related to the crash of the financial market) he is feeling major pressure from some of the other owners saying "Hey why are we in this mess with these sales... we've got Balsille with money to burn on a team and we know he is good for it.. what's the problem??"

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10-22-2008, 02:25 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Roots73 View Post
Anybody with half a brain knows that for this plan to work, there would have to major $$$ concessions to MLSE and to Buffalo. Then there's the building of a new rink, franchise fees (if they get a new one) and on and on and on.

Then you would have to convince enough die hard Leaf fans to turn on their "storied" franchise in favor of some retread expansion team from the states or even worse, a brand new expansion franchise with no hope of making the playoffs for the first five years.

If they couldn't convert Leaf fans into Sens fans in Ottawa, they sure as hell won't convert Leaf fans toward a second franchise in Toronto.

At best they could get one in Hamilton or Kitchener/Waterloo but not right in the heart of Leaf nation.
Presumably, the money won't be an issue, since these are deep pockets getting ball rolling. Once these up-front costs are out of the way, you have to ask, will they fill the stadium every night? Presuming they play with the Habs, Sens, Bruins, and, Leafs (Sabres move to the ATL) you can bank on it.

And if they market themselves as the "NHL team for the fans who can't afford to take their kids to the Leafs," you can count on nightly sellouts and a strong blue-collar fanbase (even though tickets realistically won't be that much cheaper...but at least you'll be able to buy them).

Add a few years of huge TV revenues based on viewers tuning in for the newness factor, and massive merchandising revenues for the same, and this is a no-brainer.

Finally, there are Torontonians like me, who would love to have a TO team to cheer for but hate the Leafs. I'd be there regularly, and it would give me three more chances to see the Habs play.

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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
with Tampa's deal in major jeopardy (financing issues related to the crash of the financial market) he is feeling major pressure from some of the other owners
Could you imagine the second Toronto team being the Lightning, with Vinny, Stamkos, etc.? It would be hilarious watching the Leafs get stomped by their new little cousins for the next decade (once they fire the idiot Melrose).


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10-22-2008, 06:58 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by mrCoffea View Post
don't you people realize that having a team in Hamilton makes the NHL look BUSH LEAGUE?
As opposed to moving/expanding in such well known cities like Raleigh NC in 1995, Sunrise FL & Anaheim CA in 92-93? Or how about the empty seats in the freakin desert? No that doesn't make the NHL look bush league.

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10-22-2008, 09:03 AM
  #163
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As opposed to moving/expanding in such well known cities like Raleigh NC in 1995, Sunrise FL & Anaheim CA in 92-93? Or how about the empty seats in the freakin desert? No that doesn't make the NHL look bush league.
Your post and mrCoffea's are exactly the reason I think TO is the logical best choice as opposed to Hamilton or Raleigh..

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10-22-2008, 09:55 AM
  #164
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Your post and mrCoffea's are exactly the reason I think TO is the logical best choice as opposed to Hamilton or Raleigh..
I agree. Move a franchise that is losing money and has terrible attendance to a very well known city which will almost certainly sell out every night and you have a real league. Not one that expands to 10 cities in 10 years, most of them as a "throw against the wall to see if they stick" experiment, to have half of them currently failing.

I fully understand the reasons for expanding down south to grow the game, but so many, so quickly? The league should have stayed at, at most, 24-26 teams and slowly expanded from there, a new team every 2-4 years. Giving each one a chance to catch on while not bringing down the league with them.

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10-22-2008, 10:33 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by David_99 View Post
I agree. Move a franchise that is losing money and has terrible attendance to a very well known city which will almost certainly sell out every night and you have a real league. Not one that expands to 10 cities in 10 years, most of them as a "throw against the wall to see if they stick" experiment, to have half of them currently failing.

I fully understand the reasons for expanding down south to grow the game, but so many, so quickly? The league should have stayed at, at most, 24-26 teams and slowly expanded from there, a new team every 2-4 years. Giving each one a chance to catch on while not bringing down the league with them.
San Jose, Tampa, Anaheim was a good foray...

Its Nashville and Miami/Fort Lauderdale that's weirder?



And thank goodness Dallas wasn't an expansion team and was successful quickly. Or else we'd have a huge gaping hole in Texas and Arizona...


I ageed with Minny and Columbus. Those are shrewd moves to expand to relatively large markets/large hockey markets.

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10-22-2008, 10:44 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by AD View Post
San Jose, Tampa, Anaheim was a good foray...

Its Nashville and Miami/Fort Lauderdale that's weirder?



And thank goodness Dallas wasn't an expansion team and was successful quickly. Or else we'd have a huge gaping hole in Texas and Arizona...


I ageed with Minny and Columbus. Those are shrewd moves to expand to relatively large markets/large hockey markets.
The weirdest one to me is putting franchises in BOTH Tampa and Miami within a few years of each other. That's not an area of the country where there's a big ready-made fanbase; put a team in Tampa, give it a decade or so, and if their ticket sales are good and there's evidence of a large number of people outside the immediate area following the team (which I'm not sure there would have been), then you put a team four or five hours away in Miami. I can't imagine how the NHL thought there were enough hockey fans in Central/South Florida to sustain not one but two franchises.

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10-22-2008, 10:49 AM
  #167
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The weirdest one to me is putting franchises in BOTH Tampa and Miami within a few years of each other. That's not an area of the country where there's a big ready-made fanbase; put a team in Tampa, give it a decade or so, and if their ticket sales are good and there's evidence of a large number of people outside the immediate area following the team (which I'm not sure there would have been), then you put a team four or five hours away in Miami. I can't imagine how the NHL thought there were enough hockey fans in Central/South Florida to sustain not one but two franchises.
IMO, they should have placed the 1st franchise in Miami. And THEN.. if met with success.. see about the rest of Florida.

But then, expansion in the 90s had very little to do with smart central planning and everything to do with who had which connections and buckets of cash to give to Bettman and the NHL.

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10-22-2008, 11:16 AM
  #168
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But then, expansion in the 90s had very little to do with smart central planning and everything to do with who had which connections and buckets of cash to give to Bettman and the NHL.
Exactly. Cities like Seattle, Portland, Milwakee, though not perfect, would have been more ideal then 2 Florida teams, Nashville and Atlanta. Though there were some road blocks in each of those cities. So instead of working through them/waiting them out, Bettman went full steam ahead with the next in lines. Also what was with all of the expansions while teams like Winnipeg, Quebec, Harford weren't completely stable? Why is blocking Nashville from moving the right thing to do while teams with more history left overnight without the slightest bump in the road?

I keep hearing the response "People are already watching hockey in Winnipeg, Milwakee & Portland anyway. Why put a team there? It's not going to grow the game. Put a team in Tampa and it has more potential for growth". Listen, how many people in Portland are paying to see NHL games now? Not many. Is everyone in Portland watching hockey on TV? No. Put a team there, will just as many new people watch it on TV then Tampa? Both have the same potential for new viewers. At least Portland has SOME hockey history and SOME fans of the game already to start with. (BTW I know there's issues with Allen blocking the League, I'm just using them as an example). Had the NHL expanded slowly southward, the trickle effect would have followed the teams down. Instead of throwing a team as far south hockey socluded as Tampa to start with.

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10-22-2008, 11:29 AM
  #169
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There were a lot of reasons to go to Florida ahead of other southern areas like Phoenix, Nashville, etc....

People thought that they could attract the Canadian Snowbirds down there to go to games.

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10-22-2008, 11:38 AM
  #170
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There were a lot of reasons to go to Florida ahead of other southern areas like Phoenix, Nashville, etc....

People thought that they could attract the Canadian Snowbirds down there to go to games.
Which isn't without merit... except that a) the season includes October, November, and March; b) while the snowbirds flock to see the Habs, Sens, and Leafs, they don't seem to be that much more interested than the locals in seeing the Atlantas, Nashvilles, and Philadelphias; and c) even with the snowbirds it doesn't seem that the interest is there to support teams in both Tampa and Miami.

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10-22-2008, 11:40 AM
  #171
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Which isn't without merit... except that a) the season includes October, November, and March; b) while the snowbirds flock to see the Habs, Sens, and Leafs, they don't seem to be that much more interested than the locals in seeing the Atlantas, Nashvilles, and Philadelphias; and c) even with the snowbirds it doesn't seem that the interest is there to support teams in both Tampa and Miami.
Oh i agree its failed miserably.... but hindsight is 20/20....

I'm merely pointing out a line of thinking that was prevelant at the time.

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10-22-2008, 11:45 AM
  #172
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Toronto could handle an expansion team,either out in Mississauga or North York/Thornhill.The market is enormous.

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10-22-2008, 12:05 PM
  #173
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Oh i agree its failed miserably.... but hindsight is 20/20....

I'm merely pointing out a line of thinking that was prevelant at the time.
I can certainly see why they thought it would work... I think with one franchise instead of two, it may have.

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10-22-2008, 06:07 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Balsile believes that he doesn't have to pay a dime to Toronto or Buffalo for infringing the territory... and he's willing to go to court to prove it.

Most legal experts who have heard the argument of his lawyers agree that the NHL constitution has no standing in Canada and that the attempt to get him to pay an idemnity fee would not stand in the courts.

However going to court is always a tricky proposition.

But it is not guaranteed that he would even have to pay a Dime to MLSE.



McCowan and Jim Kelley also said the 700 million dollar was ludicrous... and there was no way MLSE would see close to that. Also it was more like 500 million as they assumed 200million would be the cost of the franchise (recent sales of the Preds and Lightning).

The NHL has never had one vote on the issue even if it is under their constitution... they didn't have a vote on it when Colorado moved to New Jersey (although they paid an undisclosed sum to three teams Isles, Rangers, Flyers... though its disputed if this was ever even paid....) and the Ducks (paid 50 million for their franchise fee... 25 million split to everyone... 25 million to the Kings; compare this to the Senators, Lightning and Panthers who paid 50 million for their teams and that 150 million was split evenly).

As said nothing is a sure thing in court... but if this ever went through I'm 95% sure they would settle out of court for a small lower fee than 500 million. Probably a fraction of that.

MLSE and Bettman do not want this to get to that point... they have shown they will do everything in their power to avoid Balsille buying a team (see Pitt and Nashville). Now with pressure on Bettman internally do to the Boots Delbaggio situation... and with Tampa's deal in major jeopardy (financing issues related to the crash of the financial market) he is feeling major pressure from some of the other owners saying "Hey why are we in this mess with these sales... we've got Balsille with money to burn on a team and we know he is good for it.. what's the problem??"
A court date is moot if the NHL will not approve him as an owner. They also would have to approve moving a team. If he can get over those hurdles then MAYBE he can challenge the territory rules.

He can't force his way into the club. Especially if he ticks off the members of the club

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10-22-2008, 06:16 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by mrCoffea View Post
I still can't believe people still think a team in Hamilton is viable...

don't you people realize that having a team in Hamilton makes the NHL look BUSH LEAGUE?

I mean, sorry to burst your collective Canadian bubbles, but the average american doesn't know of or give a **** about Calgary, Edmonton and Ottawa. All of those cities are much bigger/better known that Hamilton, yet they make the NHL stick out like a sore thumb if you look at the list of cities in the NHL. I understand that hockey is a "Canadian" sport, and that's why we can get away with it, but still, it's almost embarrassing to think that such small cities have a pro team.

Hamilton is 10 times worse. Having a team in Hamilton would just make the NHL look like some b-league
So is Green Bay a joke to the NFL? No it is one of the most prestigious and respected franchises in the league. Having a team in Nashville is more of a joke than Hamilton.

Green Bay's greater metro population(2006): 226,778
Hamilton's greater metro population(2006): 692,911

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