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OT - Lucian Bute (22-0-0) vs. Librado Andrade (27-1-0) - IBF Super Middleweight Bout

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Old
10-25-2008, 04:35 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by franchise player View Post
he was ready after more than 15 seconds. Had the ref did his job, it would have been ruled a KO. Also, your point give an counter argument that the ref shouldn't have bothered by Andrade because the corner thing is to make sure the guy doesn't jump back too quickly on the nearly ko'ed guy, and it wasn't even important at this point because the fight was over.

I know you're used to watch hockey ref deciding wich rules to apply depending on how much time's left in the game... but come on... if the rule is there, IT HAS to be followed, no matter how much time left on the clock!

this Andrade guy has a few KO under his belt already, if he was stupid enough not to know and follow that simple rule, it is a well deserved loss.

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10-25-2008, 04:40 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
watch the last round of that fight again .Bute wasnt throwing any punches and he was like a bouncing ball with only the ropes keep him up . Even when he managed to get back up after the knock down he was slumped into the corner(which held him up) when the ref gave him the victory. Wobbled back to his corner barley

even the ref said Bute lost . after the fight the ref said Andrade cost himself the win by leaving his corner. Wright(the ref) claimed in his post fight interview that Bute wouldn't have made the ten count,and Andrade should have won by KO but because Andrade left the corner he had to stop the count.

the ref said "It was Andrade's fault."


now again go back loook at Andrade in the corner the debate will rage on until Bute steps up and calls for a rematch.There is no debate tho Bute got knocked out for the first time . How he handles that know is anyones guess
would be nice to post it if you have some link to a clear shot, nothing on YT (or elsewhere) really shows where exactly Andrade is when the ref is telling him to go back in the corner.

And as for the interview, you're right, Wright says it clearly "Andrade cost himself a Knock-out win".

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10-25-2008, 04:44 PM
  #153
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Before anyone calls me biased, I will warn you - I am biased as Hell towards Bute (being Romanian and all - my first question was not "has he won" but more "is he OK")

So please, everyone that cries murder and robbery please explain me in detail where exactly was the robbery in there. Let's take it step by step.

I. Rounds 1 to 11 - did he tolerate too much holding from Bute? I think he had 2 warnings did he?

II. End round 12 before the punch - did he protect Bute in any way?

III. The punch came, 9 sec left to the round. Did he start to count too late? He is supposed to start the count only after Andrade reached the farthest neutral corner - Did he start too long after that?

IV. Did he count too slow ?

V. He sees Andrade steping out of the corner (he did - 2-3 steps and at least 4-5 feet toward the center) - the rules compell him to stop the count and send Andrade back and only restart the count after Andrade reached the corner again. If you saw the images (I was watching at home in HD) - you see it takes a few seconds before Andrade reaches the corner again.

VI. He starts counting again, at 6 or 7. Bute is up and ready to rise his hands. Which he does.

VII. TKO ... As far as I know, TKO is given to protect a player from getting injured more. The risk of Bute getting injured any more were 0.

So please, all you experts, tell me , at what level do you place the exact moment of the "robbery". Which decision do you find was incorrect from the referee ?

Common sense tells us (me included) that Bute was at a few seconds from being KO. But boxing is done in a rule framework.

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10-25-2008, 05:03 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Jaydee96 View Post
I just re-watched the 12th round.

WOW, its even worst then i first thought. I saw it last night at cage but with everyone in cage going nuts the last 30 seconds i didnt see it good. What a terrible job by the ref. If the ropes werent there Bute would have been in the 10th row of the crowd BEFORE Andrade punched him for the last time. He clearly is falling to the ground.

I hope the IBF gives the decision to Andrade.
If the ref did as you advise and stopped the fight with only seconds remaining, there would be even more outrage, and justifiably so.

I have seen nothing in writing that suggests a fighter must theoretically be able to continue in order to beat the count in this situation. With no time remaining, he merely had to make it to his feet. He did.

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10-25-2008, 05:06 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post

VII. TKO ... As far as I know, TKO is given to protect a player from getting injured more. The risk of Bute getting injured any more were 0.

So please, all you experts, tell me , at what level do you place the exact moment of the "robbery". Which decision do you find was incorrect from the referee ?

Common sense tells us (me included) that Bute was at a few seconds from being KO. But boxing is done in a rule framework.
Bute was already TKOed from the moment he hit the canvas. The ref could have been stopped the fight even if he got up. He was out on his feet.

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10-25-2008, 05:09 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by doug mckenzie View Post
watch the last round of that fight again .Bute wasnt throwing any punches and he was like a bouncing ball with only the ropes keep him up . Even when he managed to get back up after the knock down he was slumped into the corner(which held him up) when the ref gave him the victory. Wobbled back to his corner barley

even the ref said Bute lost . after the fight the ref said Andrade cost himself the win by leaving his corner. Wright(the ref) claimed in his post fight interview that Bute wouldn't have made the ten count,and Andrade should have won by KO but because Andrade left the corner he had to stop the count.

the ref said "It was Andrade's fault."


now again go back loook at Andrade in the corner the debate will rage on until Bute steps up and calls for a rematch.There is no debate tho Bute got knocked out for the first time . How he handles that know is anyones guess
The ref was wrong. Watch the clip again. Watch Bute after the knockdown. Now, count to ten in your head. Does Bute beat the count? Unless you're counting tenths, he most certainly does.

Was Bute out on his feet? Absolutely. But until I see something in writing that states a downed fighter, with zero time remaining, must on top of beating the count show himself to be capable of continuing, then the decision goes to Bute.

Remember Chavez - Taylor? One of the criticisms of Richard Steele that night revolved around the fact that he failed to recognize the flashing red light which indicated ten seconds remained in the fight. The point is this: context does matter. Had there been any time left in the fight last night, Bute would rightfully have been called out on his feet. But since no time remained, he only had to beat the count, regardless of the fact that his head was spinning like a piston when he did so.

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10-25-2008, 05:14 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Yes Im Peter Ing View Post
The ref was wrong. Watch the clip again. Watch Bute after the knockdown. Now, count to ten in your head. Does Bute beat the count? Unless you're counting tenths, he most certainly does.

Was Bute out on his feet? Absolutely. But until I see something in writing that states a downed fighter, with zero time remaining, must on top of beating the count show himself to be capable of continuing, then the decision goes to Bute.

Remember Chavez - Taylor? One of the criticisms of Richard Steele that night revolved around the fact that he failed to recognize the flashing red light which indicated ten seconds remained in the fight. The point is this: context does matter. Had there been any time left in the fight last night, Bute would rightfully have been called out on his feet. But since no time remained, he only had to beat the count, regardless of the fact that his head was spinning like a piston when he did so.
the irony in it all?

the ref was so "WRONG" yet his last name was "WRIGHT"

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10-25-2008, 05:19 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Yes Im Peter Ing View Post
T
Remember Chavez - Taylor? One of the criticisms of Richard Steele that night revolved around the fact that he failed to recognize the flashing red light which indicated ten seconds remained in the fight. The point is this: context does matter. Had there been any time left in the fight last night, Bute would rightfully have been called out on his feet. But since no time remained, he only had to beat the count, regardless of the fact that his head was spinning like a piston when he did so.
Whoa whoa, where does it say in writing that context matters? Steele asked Taylor twice if he was able to continue and he did not respond, so he stops the fight. Rightfully so. As he stated, he didn't care how much time is left, his main concern was the fighter's ability to continue. How can he estimate in his head how much time has elapsed even if he knew there were only ten seconds left? Chavez could have killed him with a final blow because Taylor was defenseless. That fight ruined Taylor. I shudder at the thought of what a final blow could have resulted into.

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10-25-2008, 05:39 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Yes Im Peter Ing View Post
The ref was wrong. Watch the clip again. Watch Bute after the knockdown. Now, count to ten in your head. Does Bute beat the count? Unless you're counting tenths, he most certainly does.

Was Bute out on his feet? Absolutely. But until I see something in writing that states a downed fighter, with zero time remaining, must on top of beating the count show himself to be capable of continuing, then the decision goes to Bute.
I agree with you 110%. So does Yvon Michel by the way (and Michel works with the Grant brothers) :

http://www.rds.ca/boxe/chroniques/262294.html

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10-25-2008, 07:16 PM
  #160
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Groggy or not, Bute was up before the end of the count (heck, he was up after 8.5 seconds or so). that's all that was needed, because you don't need to be alert to win. You need to be up, that's it.

Whitesnake, I agree, Bute did not look great for that round. But he CLEARLY won the match. Not even close. Heck, I'd say that some of you thought it would be closer. It got closer only because he was careless in the 12th.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketlives View Post
There will be a rematch and Andrade will probably win by KO in the first six rounds. Bute kept his title but, in my book, he's a tainted champion. He landed a lot of punches in this fight but he never hurt Andrade. Bute is a beautiful boxer but he lacks a knock out punch.

After being knocked down in the 12th, Bute was back on his feet within the required 9 seconds but he was still groggy and defenseless. The ref could hardly have declared the champion TKO'ed with only a few seconds remaining. However, he did take at least 10 seconds to convince Andrade to go to a neutral corner. Was such a long count justified? Andrade propably thought he was far enough from Bute but, in the end, if he failed to comply with the ref's orders, he has only himself to blame.
rocket, you win a boxing match by winning rounds and hitting the opponent more than he does. It is not by knockdown most of the time. So Bute is a strong boxer.

And the count had nothing to do with it.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 10-25-2008 at 09:08 PM.
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10-25-2008, 08:27 PM
  #161
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rocket, you win a boxing match by winning rounds and hitting the opponent more than he does. It is not by knockdown most of the time. So Bute is a strong boxer.

And the count had nothing to do with it.
I agree. Technically, Bute is a strong boxer and he does have 18KO's to his credit but if he had a knock-out punch he wouldn't have to box so many rounds. He outboxed a very good man last night in Andrade but at the end of the 11th he was done while Andrade could still throw bombs. Give me a boxer who can finish his opponent anytime with a lethal right or left hook. Bute's career won't last long if he faces several guys like Andrade. He was lucky to win last night.

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10-26-2008, 09:20 AM
  #162
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Bute DOMINATED Andrade for 11 rounds. He decided to be fancy in the 12th and he shouldn't. He payed the price. Just like Ouellet did in his first match against Hilton. This time too, the ref should have stopped the fight.

Bute is not a sham. He's in the 2nd tier of fighters in his weight category. Which means that he's just behind Galzaghe and Kessler. These two are untouchable right now. Bute has 23 pro bouts in his career and would need at least 4-5 more before challenging the best 2 fighters in the world.

Andrade showed moucho courage. It was Rocky-like. But the guy was outmatched for 11 rounds or so. He clearly finished second if you take out the 12th. but in the 12th, his opponent tried to be Appollo Creed and Andrade should have won.

Calling Bute a sham is ridiculous.
Never been impressed by him. He's a decent boxer but a lot of the hype is built on protecting him. Not only that but he lacks the killer instinct to really finish guys. He's not what I consider a real fighter and when he's gonna face somebody who's a real tough man who can hit he will be in trouble. Last match was a prelude of things to come.

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10-26-2008, 10:08 AM
  #163
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Eric Lucas was robbed too in Germany few years ago and was never given the opportunity to get his revenge against the same guy.

Usually, referees have a bias for the guy who has the Championship belt. Too bad for Andrade that the fight did not last few seconds more. Champions have to be TKO'd to loose their belt. Bute anyway had won at least 9 of the first 11 bouts.

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10-26-2008, 11:23 AM
  #164
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All this talk for nothing. Look everyon knows that Bute won a "technicallity" if you even want to call it that. Personally, the referee performed a class A screw job. That just tainted Bute rep as champion and furthur more, Montreals reputation in the boxing world.

Simply put, Bute has never faught anyone worth mention. Andrade was the first "real" test, and I was not impressed. Some people were putting Bute and Kessler in the same breathe

I really hope, Bute, get that far. So Kessler can demolish this joke of a champion!

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10-26-2008, 11:30 AM
  #165
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For all th etalk and controversy, and whether or not the ref should have paid attention to Andrade during the count, does anyone dispute that Bute got up in 10 seconds and that there were 10 seconds left in the fight ?

If not, what's the issue ?

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10-27-2008, 05:25 AM
  #166
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All this talk for nothing. Look everyon knows that Bute won a "technicallity" if you even want to call it that. Personally, the referee performed a class A screw job. That just tainted Bute rep as champion and furthur more, Montreals reputation in the boxing world.
What do you want? There is only one way to clearly win, and it's "technically". Technically, Bute won the fight. Technically, the Ref should not have called a TKO, as Bute was in no danger for the end of the match. Technically, Bute won the match by the points.

If you want to dis-regard the "technicallity", you are threading dangerously into the realm of "moral victory". And we all know where that leads: Boston.

And nobody wants to go there.

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10-27-2008, 07:02 AM
  #167
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For all th etalk and controversy, and whether or not the ref should have paid attention to Andrade during the count, does anyone dispute that Bute got up in 10 seconds and that there were 10 seconds left in the fight ?

If not, what's the issue ?

For most, the issue is that with Andrade not having enough time to give one last punch BECAUSE of the ref...

but technically, here how it goes usually

- Boxer goes down
- Ref interfere, wait for the boxer to go in a corner : let's say it takes half a second (0.5)
- Ref start the count : 10 seconds
- Ref resume the fight
- Boxer can come back to the center of the ring or go directly and try to hit again : let's say another half second (0.5)

total : 11 seconds

Now, unless I'm blind - or HBO is way off (like off by 10 or 15 seconds) the following link shows CLEARLY there wasnt enough time. the last thing we see on the clock is 05 seconds - and that's BEFORE Bute went down...



so, how can Andrade go in a corner, wait for the 10 seconds count and come back -> in FIVE seconds ?

awnser : HE CANT...


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10-27-2008, 07:35 AM
  #168
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What the hell is wrong with you guys? Judging Bute's power with Andrade? Come on, Andrade has got one of the hardest chin in boxing and the way he rolls under the punches is just unreal. Kesler did not even put Andrade down and Andrade was not even as good then. Bute has got very good power to throw Andrade down and to cut him twice. This is ridiculous. I'm still in shock as how Andrade can take a puch, this guy is not human.

For does saying this is the first worthy oponent Bute faced, Bute did face Sakio Bika before. For does who ignore it, Sakio Bika is the guy that dislodged Calzaghe's jaw.

If Bute had boxed just a little better in the last round this would of been a total domination by Bute in that fight. Don't let 3 minutes fool you into thinking Andrade is the better boxer.

All this controversy aside, if you could somehow combine the strengths of the two into one man, it would be the ultimate fighting machine.

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10-27-2008, 08:15 AM
  #169
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For French speakers, here are Bute and Larouche at the CKAC morning show.

http://www.corussports.com/boxe/il_a...7-1246553.html

Very interesting stuff there.

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10-27-2008, 08:20 AM
  #170
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From Marlon Wright and Larouche, seems that it's normal to protect the champion. I could easily see that if a round is somewhat tied as far as the scoring goes, maybe that you'll give the round to the champion. I do have the thinking that a challenger needs to be clearly dominant to beat the champion when it goes to the limit? But a KO? Where does it say in the rulebook that could also protect a champion from being knocked out. I just can't see how Wright could say that "Bute had won approx. all the rounds, the fight was over and did not deserve to lose like that"....

Isn't there 2 ways you can win a fight, with the points or by KO. Clearly Andrade wouldn't have have won by points, he had to win by KO but then you take this out of him as well? I don't care how many seconds there are left. If you did not manage the fight well, if you're too dumb, you don't deserve to win period.

Anyway, a rematch was almost confirmed this morning by Bute and Larouche so we can settle this once and for all. Andrade better attack sooner though. And Bute better be much much wiser....

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10-27-2008, 08:34 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
From Marlon Wright and Larouche, seems that it's normal to protect the champion. I could easily see that if a round is somewhat tied as far as the scoring goes, maybe that you'll give the round to the champion. I do have the thinking that a challenger needs to be clearly dominant to beat the champion when it goes to the limit? But a KO? Where does it say in the rulebook that could also protect a champion from being knocked out. I just can't see how Wright could say that "Bute had won approx. all the rounds, the fight was over and did not deserve to lose like that"....

Isn't there 2 ways you can win a fight, with the points or by KO. Clearly Andrade wouldn't have have won by points, he had to win by KO but then you take this out of him as well? I don't care how many seconds there are left. If you did not manage the fight well, if you're too dumb, you don't deserve to win period.

Anyway, a rematch was almost confirmed this morning by Bute and Larouche so we can settle this once and for all. Andrade better attack sooner though. And Bute better be much much wiser....
There was absolutely no KO there. Bute was already up on his feet, even at the moment the referee interrupted the count (at 7) to send Andrade back to his corner. According to the rules, if you are up and your hands do not touch the floor at the end of the count, it can't be a KO. So please stop calling for KO there.

What was possible would have been a TKO. A TKO is called for one single reason - the refere judges that the fighter is not able to continue and risks further injury. The risk of injury in Bute's case was a full 0% and continuing the fight was not an issue either. The game was over. Why call a TKO then ?

Andrade was dominated. His only option for winning the game would have been a true KO. The referee did not favor Bute he just applied the rules in letter and spirit.

Does anyone here think that a TKO (not a KO) called after the end of the game would have been a "fair" decision?

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10-27-2008, 08:41 AM
  #172
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There was absolutely no KO there. Bute was already up on his feet, even at the moment the referee interrupted the count (at 7) to send Andrade back to his corner. According to the rules, if you are up and your hands do not touch the floor at the end of the count, it can't be a KO. So please stop calling for KO there.
You know what I meant.....I know the difference, don't worry. I changed my post so he could be more clear. Still, if the referees would have not make his phantom calls on Andrade, there would have been more than 2 seconds left in the bout. Making it plenty of time for Andrade to knock him out by TKO or even KO.

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10-27-2008, 09:02 AM
  #173
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You know what I meant.....I know the difference, don't worry. I changed my post so he could be more clear. Still, if the referees would have not make his phantom calls on Andrade, there would have been more than 2 seconds left in the bout. Making it plenty of time for Andrade to knock him out by TKO or even KO.
See - I always try to understand what exactly is it that people accuse the referee of. I heard so many versions. Not counting fast enough. Bogus call on Andrade to get back to his corner. Not calling a TKO. However - this is the first time I hear that one.

So - in your opinion, the referee should have actually counted faster in order to give Andrade the 2 seconds he needed to come and finish Bute?

First - Bute fell down after the 10 seconds warning. A count is done in 10 (though the player is supposed to be up at 8) - so where would those two seconds come from? Also - your reasoning does add even more to the importance of having Andrade in the corner and not in the center of the ring.

Let's face it - Andrade was not "robbed" - he lost the fight in the current rule set of boxing in general. Maybe he deserved a victory somehow but it would have taken some serious rule twisting to give him that victory.

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10-27-2008, 09:27 AM
  #174
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The day after the fight Stephane Larouche said in an interview that Bute went down right after the timekeeper gave his 10-second warning and that his only worry was that he could get back on his feet in time which he did. Eventhoug Bute still looked out on his feet, the ref had not intention to call the champion TKO'ed as he touched his gloves and stepped back to let the fight continue only to hear the bell signaling the end of the fight.

It took 24 seconds between Bute's knock-down and the end of the fight because the time keeper was waiting to see what the ref would do i.e. call a TKO or resume action. As soon as he saw the ref touching Bute's glove and stepping back he rang his bell but the fight was already over.

Larouche said Interboxe would be in no hurray to give Andrade a rematch. Bute is leaving for Romania in a few days and he'll probably defend his title in Europe before giving Andrade a rematch.

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10-27-2008, 09:38 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by rocketlives View Post
The day after the fight Stephane Larouche said in an interview that Bute went down right after the timekeeper gave his 10-second warning and that his only worry was that he could get back on his feet in time which he did. Eventhoug Bute still looked out on his feet, the ref had not intention to call the champion TKO'ed as he touched his gloves and stepped back to let the fight continue only to hear the bell signaling the end of the fight.

It took 24 seconds between Bute's knock-down and the end of the fight because the time keeper was waiting to see what the ref would do i.e. call a TKO or resume action. As soon as he saw the ref touching Bute's glove and stepping back he rang his bell but the fight was already over.

Larouche said Interboxe would be in no hurray to give Andrade a rematch. Bute is leaving for Romania in a few days and he'll probably defend his title in Europe before giving Andrade a rematch.
as I understand it, a tko is simply to protect the fighter, the word knockout has obvious meaning, but the principle is whether a fighter can continue and it seems that in this case, he didn't have to continue.

If, as you say, the 10 second warning was valid, well as long as Bute got to his feet, that was enough.

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