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Old
10-22-2008, 12:06 PM
  #26
Dick Whitman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
Why?



Higgins is worth waaaaaay more than Bernier, imo.



What does younger matter? Age only matters if guys are getting old enough they might decline, or they're young enough to be RFAs. I don't see any reason why a 27 year old would be worth more or less than a 29 year old.

I think at the deadline values are based more on the number of guys available and the number of teams buying than how good the players actually are. The best puck-moving D on the market probably nets you Bernier and a 1st at last year's deadline, regardless of who it is.

Why? Because JayBo has the potential to be a franchise dman.

Higgins won't be getting much better. He's a good top 6 forward but Bernier has the potential to be a very good top line power forward. Factor in age and size and their value is pretty similar.

Age matters because if someone is going to be giving up as big a package as they will, they'll be happier to get a guy who will be 26-31 if/when they re-sign him as opposed to 30-35.

A trade for JayBo will be for this season with the intention of signing him long term and not just to rent.

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10-22-2008, 12:08 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Higgins - 27 goals last year
Bernier - 32 points career high

Comparable? Am I missing something?
About 2 years.

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Old
10-22-2008, 12:43 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by T_Cage View Post
hmmm...is the OP a sign that Habs fans may be soon replacing Leafs fans as the new "HF Homers"?
What are you talking about? You think the Panthers can get significantly better return for a UFA to be Bouwmeester?

I can understand Pather fans not jumping all over that deal at this point, but to suggest that its a ridiculous offer shows just as much homerism on your end.

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10-22-2008, 12:56 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
About 2 years.
So because Bernier has the potential to be what Higgins is currently, that makes him more valuable?

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Old
10-22-2008, 01:21 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
Higgins won't be getting much better. He's a good top 6 forward but Bernier has the potential to be a very good top line power forward. Factor in age and size and their value is pretty similar.
Thats a dumb argument....

Thats like saying Ryan McDonagh and Brent Burns have about the same value.

McDonagh is younger and his potential is to be as good as Burns....

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush every single time.

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Old
10-22-2008, 01:54 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
There will be more competition for J-Bo than there was for Campbell. I'd say Higgins and Bernier probably have approx. the same value when you take into account age, size and potential. Besides, along with being a better dman, he's younger and scores more goals not to mention he's been consistent a lot longer than Campbell has.
I would argue the more consistent point, since they have both been fairly consistent over the past 3-4 years. The more goals is debatable since JBo has 1 more goal in about 20 less NHL games (both around 400 games); however he has the potential to become a better scorer perenially.

But how about comparing it to the Hossa deal at the deadline last year?

To Pitt: Hossa and Dupuis
To Atl: Armstrong, Christenson, Esposito and a 1st

So essentially Dupuis and Armstrong cancel out leaving Hossa for a roster player(Christenson), prospect(Esposito), and a 1st.

The OP proposed a roster player (Higgins), another roster player (O'Byrne) and a 1st.

IMO the picks hold about the same value(both late 1st rounders), Higgins value>>Christenson value, O'Byrne value<Esposito value.

Also I believe Hossa is worth more than Bouwmeester however I would expect them to fetch roughly the same return. And the competition for Hossa was nothing if not fierce last year.

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Old
10-22-2008, 01:54 PM
  #32
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You gotta feel for Panthers fans right now they seem to be expecting the moon for Bouwmeester. He's a great defenceman (I've had him in my keeper league since he was drafted) but when was the last time someone traded a pending UFA and got back equal value? Did Atlanta get back a fair return for Hossa? No they got a couple of question marks in Esposito and the first round pick. And a couple 2nd or 3rd liners in christensen and Armstrong. Luongo was traded for peanuts for Gaborik minny will be lucky to get 2 decent roster players a high draft pick and a decent prospect. In a perfect world Jaybo would be traded for a d-man like Komisarek and someone to replace him down the road like McDonagh unfortunately this isn't a perfect world. If Jay-bo dosn't want to resign with Florida it's florida who will be at a disadvantage in negotiations, not the habs.

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10-22-2008, 01:56 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorman03 View Post
I would argue the more consistent point, since they have both been fairly consistent over the past 3-4 years. The more goals is debatable since JBo has 1 more goal in about 20 less NHL games (both around 400 games); however he has the potential to become a better scorer perenially.

But how about comparing it to the Hossa deal at the deadline last year?

To Pitt: Hossa and Dupuis
To Atl: Armstrong, Christenson, Esposito and a 1st

So essentially Dupuis and Armstrong cancel out leaving Hossa for a roster player(Christenson), prospect(Esposito), and a 1st.

The OP proposed a roster player (Higgins), another roster player (O'Byrne) and a 1st.

IMO the picks hold about the same value(both late 1st rounders), Higgins value>>Christenson value, O'Byrne value<Esposito value.

Also I believe Hossa is worth more than Bouwmeester however I would expect them to fetch roughly the same return. And the competition for Hossa was nothing if not fierce last year.

Was writing my reply while you were posting yours, didn't intentionally steal the Hossa analogy

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Old
10-22-2008, 02:16 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
So because Bernier has the potential to be what Higgins is currently, that makes him more valuable?
No one said he was more value, just that their value is approx the same. However, Bernier's potential, I believe, is bigger than Higgins'. That's my opinion however.

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Old
10-22-2008, 02:18 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Thats a dumb argument....

Thats like saying Ryan McDonagh and Brent Burns have about the same value.

McDonagh is younger and his potential is to be as good as Burns....

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush every single time.
Oh, give me a break. Brent Burns is nowhere near his ceiling whereas Higgins is there or close to it. As I've said before, Bernier has the potential to be better than Higgins... Anyways, it doesn't matter because Bouwmeester >>> Campbell which is the original point.

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Old
10-22-2008, 02:54 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
Oh, give me a break. Brent Burns is nowhere near his ceiling whereas Higgins is there or close to it. As I've said before, Bernier has the potential to be better than Higgins... Anyways, it doesn't matter because Bouwmeester >>> Campbell which is the original point.
I strongly disagree with this. maybe a slight edge to JBo, but he isn't that much better.

The Cats wont be getting much more than Higgins, O'Byrne and a 1st for JBo unless they can fleece a team in dire need.

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Old
10-22-2008, 02:56 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
Oh, give me a break. Brent Burns is nowhere near his ceiling whereas Higgins is there or close to it. As I've said before, Bernier has the potential to be better than Higgins... Anyways, it doesn't matter because Bouwmeester >>> Campbell which is the original point.
I wouldn't say Higgins has reached his ceiling... he's shown an improvement every year.... i haven't seen him start to stagnate...

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10-22-2008, 03:06 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by gorman03 View Post
I strongly disagree with this. maybe a slight edge to JBo, but he isn't that much better.

The Cats wont be getting much more than Higgins, O'Byrne and a 1st for JBo unless they can fleece a team in dire need.
He's much better defensively than Campbell is, absolutely. Offensive upside probably goes to Campbell but he also played on some pretty offensive teams in Buffalo.

Would you ever trade JayBo for Campbell? Of course not. You wouldn't think twice about it. JayBo's value is much higher than Campbell's.

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10-22-2008, 03:08 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
I wouldn't say Higgins has reached his ceiling... he's shown an improvement every year.... i haven't seen him start to stagnate...
We'll see...

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Old
10-22-2008, 03:33 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
He's much better defensively than Campbell is, absolutely. Offensive upside probably goes to Campbell but he also played on some pretty offensive teams in Buffalo.

Would you ever trade JayBo for Campbell? Of course not. You wouldn't think twice about it. JayBo's value is much higher than Campbell's.
I may be underestimating JBo, however I think you are underestimating Campbell's defensive game. It may not be as polished as JBo's but he is by no means a liability. Either way we have digressed from the original proposal. If Higgins, O'Byrne and a 1st isn't enough to get JBo out of Fla what needs to be added? I also think a conditional pick needs to be thrown in if JBo resigns.

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Old
10-22-2008, 03:55 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Cyrrus147 View Post
O'Byrne was playing with Harmlik and Higgins should be back saturday, he missed the first six games because of a groin injury.
Thanks...I honestly didn't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
In all honesty, I think he would re-up with the habs. I mean, why wouldn't he? Great young team in a market that cares about hockey. He'd have to be paid market value of course but there's no reason why he wouldn't.
You don't know Bouw too well do you? He has a hard time in front of South Florida's few cameras and the questions from our two reporters. He's just a shy guy, pressure from Montreal fans and media could take a toll. He was in the background at a golf tourney when a camera turned on in front of Weiss and Monty yapping at each other about who'll do better. Bouw looked at the camera, and slowly eaked away. He's like that. He may sign there, but I'd be surprised.

The Habs may also be in a bidding war for Bouw...we'll have to wait and see!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring_Bak_Damphousse View Post
You gotta feel for Panthers fans right now they seem to be expecting the moon for Bouwmeester. He's a great defenceman (I've had him in my keeper league since he was drafted) but when was the last time someone traded a pending UFA and got back equal value? Did Atlanta get back a fair return for Hossa? No they got a couple of question marks in Esposito and the first round pick. And a couple 2nd or 3rd liners in christensen and Armstrong. Luongo was traded for peanuts for Gaborik minny will be lucky to get 2 decent roster players a high draft pick and a decent prospect. In a perfect world Jaybo would be traded for a d-man like Komisarek and someone to replace him down the road like McDonagh unfortunately this isn't a perfect world. If Jay-bo dosn't want to resign with Florida it's florida who will be at a disadvantage in negotiations, not the habs.
You don't have to feel anything for us. If Bouw dosn't want to be here, he doesn't want to be here and Martin will get the best package for Bouw that he can. People were ragging him for the Olli trade, but Ballard's been nothing short of incredible for us and Boynton has been a pleasany surprise. While we'd like to get a huge package, I, at least, trust Martin to get the best he can for him.

There coould be a bidding war for Bouw...we'll have to wait and see.

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Old
10-22-2008, 04:11 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Thanks...I honestly didn't know.



You don't know Bouw too well do you? He has a hard time in front of South Florida's few cameras and the questions from our two reporters. He's just a shy guy, pressure from Montreal fans and media could take a toll. He was in the background at a golf tourney when a camera turned on in front of Weiss and Monty yapping at each other about who'll do better. Bouw looked at the camera, and slowly eaked away. He's like that. He may sign there, but I'd be surprised.

The Habs may also be in a bidding war for Bouw...we'll have to wait and see!


You don't have to feel anything for us. If Bouw dosn't want to be here, he doesn't want to be here and Martin will get the best package for Bouw that he can. People were ragging him for the Olli trade, but Ballard's been nothing short of incredible for us and Boynton has been a pleasany surprise. While we'd like to get a huge package, I, at least, trust Martin to get the best he can for him.

There coould be a bidding war for Bouw...we'll have to wait and see.
Did just fine representing Canada and all the camera crews in his face then. Obviously that isn't a huge factor for him or he'd have already signed a massive contract extension with Florida.

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10-22-2008, 04:21 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
Did just fine representing Canada and all the camera crews in his face then. Obviously that isn't a huge factor for him or he'd have already signed a massive contract extension with Florida.
Obviously he could sign with plenty of other "smaller" markets, . I realize he's played for Team Canada, how much was in front of the camera? It's well known that he's got an issue with being in front of the cameras. Was just mentioning a possible reason why he may not want to go there.

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10-22-2008, 04:26 PM
  #44
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Ballard was your best player on the ice monday, miles ahead of Jaybo.

EDIT: after Vokoun

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10-22-2008, 04:31 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Obviously he could sign with plenty of other "smaller" markets, . I realize he's played for Team Canada, how much was in front of the camera? It's well known that he's got an issue with being in front of the cameras. Was just mentioning a possible reason why he may not want to go there.
Obviously it wasn't for more than a few weeks at a time but he's always been a very media attractive guy...16 year old to play at the WJC and all.

My point was that it seems he is keen on winning. Winning doesn't go unnoticed anywhere, not even in Florida.

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10-22-2008, 04:39 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Hiphopopotamus View Post
Obviously it wasn't for more than a few weeks at a time but he's always been a very media attractive guy...16 year old to play at the WJC and all.

My point was that it seems he is keen on winning. Winning doesn't go unnoticed anywhere, not even in Florida.
My point is that he's been shy in front of the camers, I sure as hell wasn't knocked the South Floida market...you on the other hand, seem to enjoy the backhanded comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CH4THECUP View Post
Ballard was your best player on the ice monday, miles ahead of Jaybo.

EDIT: after Vokoun
He's been the best player on the ice every game this season, I've really enjoyed having him here.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 10-22-2008 at 05:01 PM.
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Old
10-22-2008, 05:14 PM
  #47
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The OP offer is the max the panthers would get for Bouwmeester. Not sure it makes sense for the Habs though since we need to re-sign Koivu, Kovalev, Tanguay, etc. at the end of the year.

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Old
10-22-2008, 05:25 PM
  #48
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I may be underestimating JBo, however I think you are underestimating Campbell's defensive game. It may not be as polished as JBo's but he is by no means a liability. Either way we have digressed from the original proposal. If Higgins, O'Byrne and a 1st isn't enough to get JBo out of Fla what needs to be added? I also think a conditional pick needs to be thrown in if JBo resigns.
As a Sharks fan and having seen every home game that Campbell ever played in SJ live, I was shocked at how soft his defensive coverage was. He was very hesitant on any plays that could involve contact, and would never take a hit to make a play. I would say that at this point he is still a defensive liability, especially in the west, and especially in the playoffs. You could argue that I'm bitter he left, but I wanted Doug Wilson to not pay over 5.5M for him after the season was over. Of course that meant bye bye Campbell, and I was not sad. Boyle is everything I thought Campbell was supposed to be, right handed to boot.

As for Bouwmeester, I'd like to know what else the Habs fans would be willing to give up, if a bidding war were to happen. Would either of MaxPac or McDonough be considered, or would it be an automatic no go? What if Philly was willing to part with Carter, as it seems they are better with Briere at center? How would the Habs counter an offer like that? I would think that the proposed package is fair for JBo with an expiring contract, but hypothetically speaking what would be the maximum you would ever consider giving up for him?

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10-22-2008, 05:52 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Teal392511 View Post
As a Sharks fan and having seen every home game that Campbell ever played in SJ live, I was shocked at how soft his defensive coverage was. He was very hesitant on any plays that could involve contact, and would never take a hit to make a play. I would say that at this point he is still a defensive liability, especially in the west, and especially in the playoffs. You could argue that I'm bitter he left, but I wanted Doug Wilson to not pay over 5.5M for him after the season was over. Of course that meant bye bye Campbell, and I was not sad. Boyle is everything I thought Campbell was supposed to be, right handed to boot.

As for Bouwmeester, I'd like to know what else the Habs fans would be willing to give up, if a bidding war were to happen. Would either of MaxPac or McDonough be considered, or would it be an automatic no go? What if Philly was willing to part with Carter, as it seems they are better with Briere at center? How would the Habs counter an offer like that? I would think that the proposed package is fair for JBo with an expiring contract, but hypothetically speaking what would be the maximum you would ever consider giving up for him?
I honestly can't see Florida getting any more than Higgins, O'Byrne, a 1st plus a conditional pick based on resigning. If they do get more than that it is more than I would be willing to part with as a Habs fan. I guess if you change the 1st to a 2nd I would be willing to throw a D prospect in that is not named McDonagh. If anyone offers a better package for JBo the Panthers would be foolish not to take it IMO.

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10-22-2008, 08:32 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teal392511 View Post
As a Sharks fan and having seen every home game that Campbell ever played in SJ live, I was shocked at how soft his defensive coverage was. He was very hesitant on any plays that could involve contact, and would never take a hit to make a play. I would say that at this point he is still a defensive liability, especially in the west, and especially in the playoffs. You could argue that I'm bitter he left, but I wanted Doug Wilson to not pay over 5.5M for him after the season was over. Of course that meant bye bye Campbell, and I was not sad. Boyle is everything I thought Campbell was supposed to be, right handed to boot.

As for Bouwmeester, I'd like to know what else the Habs fans would be willing to give up, if a bidding war were to happen. Would either of MaxPac or McDonough be considered, or would it be an automatic no go? What if Philly was willing to part with Carter, as it seems they are better with Briere at center? How would the Habs counter an offer like that? I would think that the proposed package is fair for JBo with an expiring contract, but hypothetically speaking what would be the maximum you would ever consider giving up for him?
If things got really rough, in a bidding war for JayBo and it was between the Flyers and Habs. I would certainly try to match and best their offer. Imho, I believe the Habs are a solid dman away from really being considered the best match for the Wings for the Cup.

My Final Offer for a SIGNED JayBo:

Higgins
OByrne
1st pick 2010
x1 of (Fisher,Chipchura,Weber)

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