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Old
12-07-2008, 08:58 AM
  #351
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Originally Posted by There's only one 66 View Post
Where do you find people who think that?



Jordan Staal will be a beast anywhere. If anything he will likely be a bigger beast individually most other places than Pittsburgh, where he can never be a top6 center.
His greatness and our strength at center is a double sided argument that can both be used to say that he should stay, and that he is one we should trade. Stay because he will be great and strenght down the middle is very important. Trade because he is so valuable that he can get players that would address bigger issues for us.
All I am saying is that those (few, it seems) of us who see him having an even bigger value for the Pens as a trade asset do not necessarily disagree with you that he will become a tremendous player.

A less touchy, but similar, subject is Goligoski's position in the clubs plans. When he gets his next contract, he will clearly be more valuable to some other teams than will be to us, because when he is no longer required on the 1st PP unit.... then he will be a young not very physical defender defender with questionable D and lots of upside. On other teams he will be on the 1st PP unit and put up points.
Was Jeff Carter a top 6 center last year? If Briere hadn't been injured this year, would it have affected his ability to dominate?

It's very possible to be a force on the 3rd line and put up numbers with the amount of time he's been allotted. I don't think it'd be smart for the Pens to deal a player who's primed for a Carter-like breakout simply because he's got trade value. He can be a lynchpin player for this team, and he can do it on the 3rd line.

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12-07-2008, 09:40 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Was Jeff Carter a top 6 center last year? If Briere hadn't been injured this year, would it have affected his ability to dominate?

It's very possible to be a force on the 3rd line and put up numbers with the amount of time he's been allotted. I don't think it'd be smart for the Pens to deal a player who's primed for a Carter-like breakout simply because he's got trade value. He can be a lynchpin player for this team, and he can do it on the 3rd line.
Agreed. I think people are confused about how roles affect play. It's not "He doesn't score because he's on the 3rd line" it's usually "He's on the 3rd line because he doesn't score". So in our case, Jordan Staal is on the 3rd line because he doesn't score as much as Crosby & Malkin (which of course isn't a negative statement at all). Typically, a 3rd line centre gets an amount of ice time relative to his talents. Staal usually gets over 20 minutes a game, and significant (but I'd like to see more) powerplay time.

Would Staal benefit from a Crosby or Malkin *knock on wood* injury or leave? Only in the case that he'll see more powerplay time and be privy to having better wingers on his line. But today, Staal is only 20 years old and his 3rd NHL season, and I wonder if Penguins fans have been spoiled with Crosby and Malkin's quick development to the top remember the pace at which players usually develop.

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12-07-2008, 11:13 AM
  #353
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Even when we acquire upgrades for the top six wingers, Staal will probably be the forward with the third-highest amount of ice time. That's because he's THAT valuable in a lot of facets of the game. AND especially if he becomes a staple on the first PP unit, which he has the potential to do for sure.

I think he has erased all doubts in my mind. We need to keep Jordan Staal for the long haul.

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12-07-2008, 02:13 PM
  #354
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It is not simply a question of how good he is, but of whether or not you can keep an asset like him as a 3rd line center and get full value for him in a cap environment. Your four best forwards should be on your top two lines. A 30 goal 3rd line guy is nice but a 50 goal winger is nicer(and they could be the same guy).

The bottom 6 forwards should be costing like 6 million a year in total and be either prospects coming up or role players. The budget is built around the top six forwards, the top two defensemen and the starting goalie with the other things being interchangeable pieces. The Pens are not a team that can spend to the cap every year, and with their two number one centers they have budget issues most other teams don't.

The Wings #3 center is a 15 minute a game guy who did not have 20 goals last season and that is normal. You shouldn't have to put Crosby and Malkin together to generate offense. It wiill be interesting to see how Staal can develop but with no PP time and no wingers he can only go so far. Meanwhile you have guys like Satan and Sykora where you should have shooters that can keep up with C & M.

I guess if they had a couple of decent wingers in their top six in their mid twenties instead of guys on the way down it wouldn't concern me as much, but it just doesn't work for me to have only two of the top six clicking and then a really good number seven guy.

I don't necessarily want Staal gone, I just don't want their third best player on the third line. I don't think Carter comparisons are fitting, since the two players ahead of Carter on the depth chart aren't comparable to the Pens top two guys. All three Flyers centers were 30 goal guys so Carter actually got PP minutes and the Flyers had more scoring wingers to go around last year than the Pens do now.

If he has limited value right now then keeping him is academic, but by sitting on him like an egg for a couple of years waiting for him to blossom they will end up around that time with payroll issues that will force a trade so they won't ever be able to afford the quality wingers that Malkin and Crosby need to excel.

Of course they might be taking the long view and may be assuming that they will inevitably lose Crosby or Malkin so Staal is the insurance policy.

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12-07-2008, 02:43 PM
  #355
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It is not simply a question of how good he is, but of whether or not you can keep an asset like him as a 3rd line center and get full value for him in a cap environment. Your four best forwards should be on your top two lines. A 30 goal 3rd line guy is nice but a 50 goal winger is nicer(and they could be the same guy).
I don't know why a team's top 4 forwards need to be on their top 2 lines. On most teams, that's fine, but the Pens are in a unique situation and are in a position to succeed with a unique configuration. Sometimes it's better to play the cards you're dealt than give them away in favour of a more conventional set-up, particularly when that card is as good and promising as Staal.

Quote:
The Wings #3 center is a 15 minute a game guy who did not have 20 goals last season and that is normal. You shouldn't have to put Crosby and Malkin together to generate offense. It wiill be interesting to see how Staal can develop but with no PP time and no wingers he can only go so far. Meanwhile you have guys like Satan and Sykora where you should have shooters that can keep up with C & M.
Why can't Staal be a big PP contributor in the future?

Quote:
I don't necessarily want Staal gone, I just don't want their third best player on the third line. I don't think Carter comparisons are fitting, since the two players ahead of Carter on the depth chart aren't comparable to the Pens top two guys. All three Flyers centers were 30 goal guys so Carter actually got PP minutes and the Flyers had more scoring wingers to go around last year than the Pens do now.
I don't see how that changes anything.

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If he has limited value right now then keeping him is academic, but by sitting on him like an egg for a couple of years waiting for him to blossom they will end up around that time with payroll issues that will force a trade so they won't ever be able to afford the quality wingers that Malkin and Crosby need to excel.
How would we be sitting on an egg and gathering payroll issues? Do you know how much Staal will be getting per year?

And I really don't think Crosby and Malkin need any better wingers than they have to excel. Being 1st and 2nd in league scoring is pretty much the definition of excelling.

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12-07-2008, 02:55 PM
  #356
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Staal's value lies in places that most people who don't watch him on a regular basis, can't understand. Aside from the tangibles and intangibles he himself has, for this team, his line also creates a matchup that favors this team 9 times out of 10. That is why the Pens will pay him ~4 million a year, and that is why he is so valued as a 3rd line center.

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12-07-2008, 03:01 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by JTG32005 View Post
Staal's value lies in places that most people who don't watch him on a regular basis, can't understand. Aside from the tangibles and intangibles he himself has, for this team, his line also creates a matchup that favors this team 9 times out of 10. That is why the Pens will pay him ~4 million a year, and that is why he is so valued as a 3rd line center.
Totally agree with ^ and the fact that even though he is technically a 3rd line center, we are still getting 20+ minutes out of him a night with the potential for more. We can keep him on our roster as a 3rd line center, you don't see other teams doing it because they just don't have the luxury, but a 3rd line center that can take equal shifts with the 1st and 2nd line centers and is adept at shutting down scoring lines is a very very nice player to have when you are competing into May.

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12-07-2008, 05:55 PM
  #358
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
I don't know why a team's top 4 forwards need to be on their top 2 lines. On most teams, that's fine, but the Pens are in a unique situation and are in a position to succeed with a unique configuration. Sometimes it's better to play the cards you're dealt than give them away in favour of a more conventional set-up, particularly when that card is as good and promising as Staal.



Why can't Staal be a big PP contributor in the future?



I don't see how that changes anything.



How would we be sitting on an egg and gathering payroll issues? Do you know how much Staal will be getting per year?

And I really don't think Crosby and Malkin need any better wingers than they have to excel. Being 1st and 2nd in league scoring is pretty much the definition of excelling.
We don't know if the Pens are in a position to succeed with the unique configuration. Perhaps the reason it hasn't been done before is because it doesn't work. Stacking your talent makes a line harder to stop. In order to shut down Crosby and his two door stops all you need to do is shut down Sid and the same for Malkin. That is why they end up playing them together.

You only have so many minutes of PP time and they are not going to play Staal ahead of the other two centers unless they play someone out of position.

Carter/Briere/Richards all scored the same amount of goals with the same amount of ice time. There was no benefit to playing one a lot more than the others except Briere is a bit more flash on the PP and Richards is better defensively. No matter who they threw out they had basically the same chance to score. With a hot streak any one of these guys could assume the role of #1 center. Not so in Pitt.

Are you assuming the payroll will be going down? Look at the cap hit right now. Who is going to take a pay cut? Since everyone agrees JS is an excellent player he will not be signing long term for 2 million a year. He is an RFA next year and they will want to lock him up for several years. I can't predict his salary but I guess based on other signing somewhere upwards of 4 million and way upwards if the team agrees he is a star held back by their depth. This is a small market club. It has to make it deep into the playoffs to turn a profit. They can't afford to bounce off the cap every year unless they are winning the conference every year. They will make decisions based on profits rather than long term success of the team if they have to. The organization has spent too much time in the red not to think that way.

Crosby and Malkin are one-two in league scoring in spite of their bad wingers. If they were playing with better scorers they would be scoring way more. Does it really seem right that Crosby's wingers can't manage a point a game? How is that even possible? How bad would these guys be with an average talent center? The two best players in the league and yet they are only fifth in goals for and nowhere close to the number one team.

Sorry I didn't mean to turn this into a Sykora sucks thread. I just think with the improved GA and the the two best centers in the game they should be first overall and if they are not it is something that has to be looked at.


Last edited by nuck: 12-07-2008 at 06:03 PM.
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Old
12-07-2008, 09:16 PM
  #359
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With a third liner like Staal, we can afford to have one top six winger who shouldn't be...like a Dupuis or Talbot.

We can't afford four, like it has often looked this season, but one definitely.

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12-08-2008, 08:31 AM
  #360
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Alright mofos, one last proposition for Staal before I leave forever...

To Pittsburgh: Tomas Kaberle, and a 2010 3rd round draft pick.

To Toronto: Jordan Staal, and a 2009 1st round draft pick.

Yeah, Pittsburgh does not need another puck moving defenseman, you guys need a scoring winger, but here's the idea: Pittsburgh gets Kaberle, but trade him to another team shortly after. You'd easily get a great prospect and a 1st rounder for him. Here's a possible trade scenario...

To Anaheim: Tomas Kaberle.

To Pittsburgh: Bobby Ryan, and a 2009 1st round draft pick.

Pittsburgh gets an elite winger who was drafted #2 behind Sidney Crosby, and also get a 1st round draft pick in return. In the end, Pittsburgh loses Staal, but gains Bobby Ryan, and a 3rd round draft pick.


Last edited by Cleatus: 12-08-2008 at 10:44 AM.
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12-08-2008, 08:39 AM
  #361
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Alright mofos, one last proposition for Staal before I leave forever...
Bye bye

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12-08-2008, 11:06 AM
  #362
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Alright mofos, one last proposition for Staal before I leave forever...

To Pittsburgh: Tomas Kaberle, and a 2010 3rd round draft pick.

To Toronto: Jordan Staal, and a 2009 1st round draft pick.

Yeah, Pittsburgh does not need another puck moving defenseman, you guys need a scoring winger, but here's the idea: Pittsburgh gets Kaberle, but trade him to another team shortly after. You'd easily get a great prospect and a 1st rounder for him. Here's a possible trade scenario...

To Anaheim: Tomas Kaberle.

To Pittsburgh: Bobby Ryan, and a 2009 1st round draft pick.

Pittsburgh gets an elite winger who was drafted #2 behind Sidney Crosby, and also get a 1st round draft pick in return. In the end, Pittsburgh loses Staal, but gains Bobby Ryan, and a 3rd round draft pick.
You wont be missed, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Brutal deal...Kaberle for Staal and a 1st.

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12-08-2008, 11:32 AM
  #363
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We don't know if the Pens are in a position to succeed with the unique configuration. Perhaps the reason it hasn't been done before is because it doesn't work. Stacking your talent makes a line harder to stop. In order to shut down Crosby and his two door stops all you need to do is shut down Sid and the same for Malkin. That is why they end up playing them together.

... snip ...
Seemed to be pretty close to success last season ...

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12-08-2008, 01:46 PM
  #364
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Seemed to be pretty close to success last season ...
Close doesn't always help. I think the last time the losing finalist came back to win the Cup the next year was the Oilers in 83-84
I don't know who their third line center was, but they had Jari Kurri on Gretzky's wing and Glen Anderson playing with Messier.
It is not a complete kiss of death though. The Wings, the Canes, the Devils and the Ducks have all come back to win it all a couple of years after bowing out of the finals.
Maybe it's Whitney who gets moved for the trading deadline winger. I like him a lot but a young forward with a lower contract might be a better fit, as long as the rest of the D starts generating more offense. Better than a rental every year.


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12-08-2008, 01:50 PM
  #365
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We'd do a lot better if we just got some guys who aren't one dimensional to play with Sid and Geno. A guy like a Niklas Hagman or a Chris Higgins. Guys who can pop up in 25 goals, but can also skate and hit and play well defensively.

The trouble with Satan and Sykora is that when they aren't producing they are worthless because they don't create anything by themselves. When a guy like a Higgins isn't producing he is still contributing by playing well defensively. This is why most of us on here are able to tolerate Staal's scoring slumps because he is always playing well defensively. When Satan and Sykora go into slumps they are completely useless.

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12-08-2008, 01:50 PM
  #366
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If i were the GM i would keep Staal at all costs. He is a player who has proven to show development especially defensively. He is quite an asset to have along with a crosby and a malkin. Keeping the core together (malkin staal crosby and fleury--you can put anyone off of the market with those guys and have a winner)

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12-08-2008, 03:23 PM
  #367
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It is not simply a question of how good he is, but of whether or not you can keep an asset like him as a 3rd line center and get full value for him in a cap environment. Your four best forwards should be on your top two lines. A 30 goal 3rd line guy is nice but a 50 goal winger is nicer(and they could be the same guy).

The bottom 6 forwards should be costing like 6 million a year in total and be either prospects coming up or role players. The budget is built around the top six forwards, the top two defensemen and the starting goalie with the other things being interchangeable pieces. The Pens are not a team that can spend to the cap every year, and with their two number one centers they have budget issues most other teams don't.

The Wings #3 center is a 15 minute a game guy who did not have 20 goals last season and that is normal. You shouldn't have to put Crosby and Malkin together to generate offense. It wiill be interesting to see how Staal can develop but with no PP time and no wingers he can only go so far. Meanwhile you have guys like Satan and Sykora where you should have shooters that can keep up with C & M.

I guess if they had a couple of decent wingers in their top six in their mid twenties instead of guys on the way down it wouldn't concern me as much, but it just doesn't work for me to have only two of the top six clicking and then a really good number seven guy.

I don't necessarily want Staal gone, I just don't want their third best player on the third line. I don't think Carter comparisons are fitting, since the two players ahead of Carter on the depth chart aren't comparable to the Pens top two guys. All three Flyers centers were 30 goal guys so Carter actually got PP minutes and the Flyers had more scoring wingers to go around last year than the Pens do now.

If he has limited value right now then keeping him is academic, but by sitting on him like an egg for a couple of years waiting for him to blossom they will end up around that time with payroll issues that will force a trade so they won't ever be able to afford the quality wingers that Malkin and Crosby need to excel.

Of course they might be taking the long view and may be assuming that they will inevitably lose Crosby or Malkin so Staal is the insurance policy.
I can't agree with that logic. To me Staal could very easily be worth his value even more so than a good winger. The top 3 lines get about equal ice time on this team and if Staal plays on the top PP unit in front of the net he is the perfect fit. If Staal develops into a 30+ goal scorer with 60+ point seasons he makes this team almost impossible to defeat in a 7 game series. Staal allows you to match any of your 3 lines against the other teams top lines and still perform well. I have seen enough of the Cooke-Staal-Kennedy line to believe they can play well against any line. Staal and Kennedy are only 20 and 22 and will only be better in a few more years which should give other teams very bad matchup problems.

To me you get each of the top 3 lines a $2.5-3.5 million type winger on one wing and a Talbot/Cooke/Fedotenko type on the other wing and they could still be the top lines in hockey. Crosby and Malkin are not even in their prime yet and they each center a line that can play against any line. Staal is getting to that point and in a few years I believe he is going to be a monster in front of the net on the top PP unit. Don't forget how valuable Staal is on PK now and as a shut down 3rd line center. I believe a 30+ goal Staal is worth more than a 40+ goal winger to this team. By the way you saying we could get a 50 goal scorer for the same price is way off. A 50 goal scorer is going to cost you $7+ million a year and Staal will not cost near that amount.

Build the team around Crosby 21, Malkin 22, and Staal 20 at center. Fleury 23 in net and our young core of dmen with Opik 27, Whitney 25, Goligoski 23, and Letang 21. That core will win some cups and it just might start this year. Forget about your 50 goal winger if it costs you losing any of that core. Now if Hossa would of signed we could of had the core and our 50 goal type winger. That would of been nice.

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12-08-2008, 03:33 PM
  #368
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I still think the Penguins should at least look into trading Staal.

Paying a 3rd line center more than $4M is a luxury the Pens cannot afford.

IMO, spending that money on a top-6 winger who can finish chances Malkin/Sid create would be more worthwhile.

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12-08-2008, 03:37 PM
  #369
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I can't agree with that logic. To me Staal could very easily be worth his value even more so than a good winger. The top 3 lines get about equal ice time on this team and if Staal plays on the top PP unit in front of the net he is the perfect fit. If Staal develops into a 30+ goal scorer with 60+ point seasons he makes this team almost impossible to defeat in a 7 game series. Staal allows you to match any of your 3 lines against the other teams top lines and still perform well. I have seen enough of the Cooke-Staal-Kennedy line to believe they can play well against any line. Staal and Kennedy are only 20 and 22 and will only be better in a few more years which should give other teams very bad matchup problems.

To me you get each of the top 3 lines a $2.5-3.5 million type winger on one wing and a Talbot/Cooke/Fedotenko type on the other wing and they could still be the top lines in hockey. Crosby and Malkin are not even in their prime yet and they each center a line that can play against any line. Staal is getting to that point and in a few years I believe he is going to be a monster in front of the net on the top PP unit. Don't forget how valuable Staal is on PK now and as a shut down 3rd line center. I believe a 30+ goal Staal is worth more than a 40+ goal winger to this team. By the way you saying we could get a 50 goal scorer for the same price is way off. A 50 goal scorer is going to cost you $7+ million a year and Staal will not cost near that amount.

Build the team around Crosby 21, Malkin 22, and Staal 20 at center. Fleury 23 in net and our young core of dmen with Opik 27, Whitney 25, Goligoski 23, and Letang 21. That core will win some cups and it just might start this year. Forget about your 50 goal winger if it costs you losing any of that core. Now if Hossa would of signed we could of had the core and our 50 goal type winger. That would of been nice.
Minus Orpik, he wouldn't have been resigned if Hossa stayed on.

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12-08-2008, 04:03 PM
  #370
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I still think the Penguins should at least look into trading Staal.

Paying a 3rd line center more than $4M is a luxury the Pens cannot afford.

IMO, spending that money on a top-6 winger who can finish chances Malkin/Sid create would be more worthwhile.
Why not keep Staal and use the Satan/Sykora money to upgrade the scoring winger situation?

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12-08-2008, 04:05 PM
  #371
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Why not keep Staal and use the Satan/Sykora money to upgrade the scoring winger situation?
Sounds like a plan.

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12-08-2008, 05:23 PM
  #372
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Why not keep Staal and use the Satan/Sykora money to upgrade the scoring winger situation?
They actually aren't paid very much. The salary of both wouldn't equal a star and you still have to give something up. They are both capable of scoring at their current rate without either Crsoby or Malkin which is kind of odd. No chemistry I guess. Does Warren Young's kid play?
Maybe they should find these guys Junior linemates. Seriously didn't Pouliot in Edmonton play with Sid? Who played with Malkin in Magnitogorsk? They had chemistry with their wingers once right?
And remember Sykora and Satan are the "good" wingers. Maybe they need to look at the ones who are even less productive? There has to be a few guys in the AHL that could manage better than 10 points in 25 games playing beside Malkin or Crosby.

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12-08-2008, 05:40 PM
  #373
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As far as bang for your buck goes, Sykora and Satan are steals. Though enigmatic and tremendously frustrating, Sykora can realistically pot 30 and Satan 40. You aren't finding two guys who are capable of scoring what they can for a combined 6 million cap hit.

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12-08-2008, 05:51 PM
  #374
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Minus Orpik, he wouldn't have been resigned if Hossa stayed on.
God our defense would have been soft if Orpik had left,thats a huge positive of us not signing Hossa.

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12-08-2008, 06:37 PM
  #375
Warm Cookies
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuck View Post
We don't know if the Pens are in a position to succeed with the unique configuration.
The Pens are 6th in the league despite suffering the sorts of injuries that would severely hamper even elite teams like SJ or Detroit. I think it's safe to say they're in a position to succeed.

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Perhaps the reason it hasn't been done before is because it doesn't work.
The reason it hasn't been done is that teams don't get three 22-and-under centers of this calibre, like, ever.

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You only have so many minutes of PP time and they are not going to play Staal ahead of the other two centers unless they play someone out of position.
Why would Staal need to play ahead of anyone? Let him learn to be a big-bodied presence in front of the net.

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Carter/Briere/Richards all scored the same amount of goals with the same amount of ice time. There was no benefit to playing one a lot more than the others except Briere is a bit more flash on the PP and Richards is better defensively. No matter who they threw out they had basically the same chance to score. With a hot streak any one of these guys could assume the role of #1 center. Not so in Pitt.
I still have no idea why this would affect Staal's ability to play on the PP.

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Are you assuming the payroll will be going down? Look at the cap hit right now. Who is going to take a pay cut? Since everyone agrees JS is an excellent player he will not be signing long term for 2 million a year. He is an RFA next year and they will want to lock him up for several years. I can't predict his salary but I guess based on other signing somewhere upwards of 4 million and way upwards if the team agrees he is a star held back by their depth. This is a small market club. It has to make it deep into the playoffs to turn a profit. They can't afford to bounce off the cap every year unless they are winning the conference every year. They will make decisions based on profits rather than long term success of the team if they have to. The organization has spent too much time in the red not to think that way.
The point of this paragraph escapes me.

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Crosby and Malkin are one-two in league scoring in spite of their bad wingers. If they were playing with better scorers they would be scoring way more. Does it really seem right that Crosby's wingers can't manage a point a game? How is that even possible? How bad would these guys be with an average talent center? The two best players in the league and yet they are only fifth in goals for and nowhere close to the number one team.
We're missing Gonch and Whitney, and the PP has been failing in good part because of coaching. Those all play a big part.

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Sorry I didn't mean to turn this into a Sykora sucks thread. I just think with the improved GA and the the two best centers in the game they should be first overall and if they are not it is something that has to be looked at.
Prime Mario, Jagr, and Francis didn't lead the Pens to first place every year, so maybe it's a little much to expect Crosby and Malkin to accomplish better at ages 21 and 22 with Gonch and Whits on the IR.

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