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Old
10-28-2008, 10:44 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Now, tell me again, with all of that added offensive firepower, how is this coach still losing more than he wins?
Sure. You left out the giant sieve that is our defensive corps. So no, we're not better (based on only 9 games into the season). And if Chimera ends the season with 64 points, I'll EAT my JHM hat.

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10-28-2008, 10:49 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Really? You really want to argue the players aren't better so far? Seriously, Lee, look at these stats and tell me you still feel that way...

Top 5 offensive players 2008-09 (Pace)

Brassard 27 goals 36 assists 64 points
Chimera 27 goals 36 assists 64 points
Huselius 27 goals 36 assists 64 points
Voracek 27 goals 36 assists 64 points
Nash 46 goals 9 assists 55 points

Top 5 offensive playes 2007-08 (actual)

Nash 38 goals 31 assists 69 points
Zherdev 26 goals 35 assists 61 points
Peca 8 goals 26 assists 34 points
Hainsey 8 goals 24 assists 32 points
Chimera 14 goals 17 assists 31 points

We're on pace to have at least 5 guys with more than 20 goals and 50 points. We had 2 players do that last year. As a side note, Christian Backman is on pace to do better than Ron Hainsey did in goals, assists and about the same in plus/minus. So, you can say "Fail" but he costs $1.1 million less than Ron and he's become another convenient scape goat though he's outperforming Tyutin who was supposed to be the crown jewel of that trade and improve our transition.

Now, tell me again, with all of that added offensive firepower, how is this coach still losing more than he wins?
Because the face of the franchise, the Captain, The All-Star is a -2 and on pace for 55pts.

Because Commodore and Tyutin as replacements for Foote and Hainsey aren't adequate in experience, leadership, or skill sets and they are asked to play roles they have NEVER played in their NHL careers.

Because Leclaire is not on his way to posting 9 shut outs this season.

Because as great as Brass and Jake are ... they are going to be greater in the future and are still developing and NO ONE has the right to COUNT on them to carry the team throughout the rest of this season.

Shall I continue?

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10-28-2008, 10:53 PM
  #103
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Gotta give Capn credit for trying though.

P.S. For the record, I'm glad Foote is gone. I've never have been a big Hainsey fan either, but you can't argue with results.

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10-28-2008, 10:55 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Pluckfur View Post
Hitch and the team wanted him ... it was going to take 2x 4mil to get him, that's what Foote AND Howson both maintained. Howson punted.
Would you honestly rather he had re-signed this cancer?

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Are you telling me Commodore is worth the money but Foote wasn't? If that's the case ... then I'm going to flat out go with the idea that I'm not the nutball around here
Personally, I wouldn't have signed either of these bums. The fact that Hitch seems to think we need this type of big, dumb oaf on the blueline is part of the reason I think he's past the use by date. But if the marching orders was to sign one of the two, with age being a factor, Commodore is probably the better choice. He also contributes more offensively than Foote does at this point...and puts fewer pucks in our own net to this point. But again, unlike Hitchcock, I didn't see the need. I'd rather play a young kid like Methot who plays solid defense at a more reasonable salary.

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Besides, YOU'VE JUST PROVEN the point I've been making: This team is NOT designed by HITCH - it's HOWSON'S maniacal, misguided, misdirected brainchild.
Because Howson refused to pay nearly 2 times the market value for an aging Adam Foote and instead got his younger equivalent for $250 k less than what Foote had demanded(granted for a longer term)? Hardly.

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And, so how do you figure Huselius wormed his way onto this team? Probably not on Hitch's say-so, huh? Honestly.
C'mon, Pluck. Do you forget the order of things? Remember who was priority numeral uno as the free agent period began? Ryan Malone. Another prototypical Hitch player. We only acquired Huselius after Howson settled on Tyutin/Backman to solve our puck moving defense issues (after striking out on Redden and the other blue chippers) and losing Z in the process. I'm sure Juice wasn't Hitch's first choice, but unlike Z he can play a North-South style and speak fluent English.

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Hitch repeatedly said that the transition game of the Jackets from the back end and a #1 center were the main area's of concern that needed to be addressed in the offseason. REDDEN again! hello, we offered him more money than anyone else... maybe Hitch wanted him here, Howson SURELY DID and yet ... even if Redden had been persuaded to sign, could you actually call the guy a "HITCH" player without choking on your own laughter? Hitch didn't build this roster with "his" kind of players ... they were HOWSON'S choices!
Which is it Pluck? Did Hitch beg for transitional defense or are all transitional d-men "non-Hitch" players? Hitch put a priority on getting a puck mover and Howson did his best to meet that demand. Redden is damn sure more of a "Hitch guy" than someone like Brian Campbell--which is why when everyone else was ga-ga over Campbell we never seriously considered him, instead focusing on Redden.

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I said all this myself! Richards okay'd the Columbus deal ... Richards was willing to come play with Nash and for Hitch ... it's HOWSON who couldn't swing the flippin' deal. NOT HITCH'S FAULT!
Umm, its not Howson's fault either. We didn't have a goaltender to give. The Richards trade is such a non-issue its pathetic at this point.

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Old
10-28-2008, 11:02 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Umm, its not Howson's fault either. We didn't have a goaltender to give. The Richards trade is such a non-issue its pathetic at this point.
If you knew then what we know now, would you have traded Leclaire for Richards?

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10-28-2008, 11:13 PM
  #106
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Because the face of the franchise, the Captain, The All-Star is a -2 and on pace for 55pts.
I don't suppose Hitch bares any blame for not reconfiguring the lines sooner when it became clear Umberger wasn't working well with Nash. I don't suppose that our coach deserves any blame for trying to put a career checking line center out there the last two games pretending he's a #1 center instead of trying to put the best center we've had thus far on our #1 line and now still refusing to do it and instead trying to have Nash play out-of-position. A position he hasn't played since age 9. No, you're absolutely right, Ken Hitchcock bares no blame for Nash's underperformance.

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Because Commodore and Tyutin as replacements for Foote and Hainsey aren't adequate in experience, leadership, or skill sets and they are asked to play roles they have NEVER played in their NHL careers.
Again, nothing is stopping Hitchcock from changing the defensive pairings. He's the one who has been stubborn to change even when they were failing. But defense has hardly been the issue the last 3 games, has it? Our sputtering first line has been the issue. And Hitchcock has refused to elevate Brassard despite his performance and has instead insisted on playing Manny Malhotra.

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Because Leclaire is not on his way to posting 9 shut outs this season.
He wouldn't have to post 9 shutouts if we loosened the reigns on the offense. We only scored more than 2 goals in one of our losses.

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Because as great as Brass and Jake are ... they are going to be greater in the future and are still developing and NO ONE has the right to COUNT on them to carry the team throughout the rest of this season.
That'd be great if we didn't have to. If our coach could figure out a line that improved our franchise player's ability to get points. If he figured out a line that could get RJ Umberger to contribute the way he did in the playoffs for Philly. But so far his best idea on how to help our franchise player is to have him play out of position and his best idea on how to ignite Umberger is to bury him on the third/fourth lines.

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Shall I continue?
Quit while you're behind.


Last edited by CapnCornelius: 10-28-2008 at 11:19 PM.
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Old
10-28-2008, 11:14 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
If you knew then what we know now, would you have traded Leclaire for Richards?
I'd say yes, but a goalie other than Denis would have to be in mix somewhere..

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Old
10-28-2008, 11:18 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
If you knew then what we know now, would you have traded Leclaire for Richards?
Would you, Lee? Because what I know now is that Freddy No is a shaky goalie who may have lost his confidence and Steve Mason isn't ready to play.

Should I assume that Howson would have had more luck signing Huet than he did in convincing Redden or Malone to come here? Or would you have targeted a trade for Khabibulin?

Even with 20/20 hindsight I don't think pulling the trigger on a deal that sent LeClaire to Tampa for Richards is a no-brainer.

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10-29-2008, 03:52 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
Your grading system is flawed because it fails to take into account one minor detail. Howson acquires the players. He doesn't coach them. If Howson goes out and trades Rick Nash for Alex Ovechkin and Ovechkin then fails to score 10 goals because of how Ken Hitchcock plays him, was it a bad trade by Howson or poor use of resources by Ken Hitchcock?

Scott Howson also acquired Nikita Filatov, a draft pick some people think may turn out to be as good as Steve Stamkos. Filatov has more goals than Stamkos. But Filatov is in Syracuse while Stamkos is playing on Tampa Bay's power play.

Ken Hitchcock says that the players will compete for their jobs. Kris Russell plays as good or better than Klesla, Commode and Tyutin...and gets sent to Syracuse after coach tries him out as a forward. Filatov scores a goal in his first game and has his playing time continually reduced until he's mercifully sent to Syracuse. Jason Chimera still sits on our second line.

The game has passed that old man by and now we need to send him to the nursing home.
And what do you want? I sayed it at the last season. Hitch `s roster is according to sympathy with some players not only achievments. He destroyed self-confidence some players. I red interesting article about psyche and self-confidence. It supported my idea and experiences of swimmer and handball player.. Brule and Fritsche can thank him. I hope Filatov and Russell will not other in order.

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10-29-2008, 04:24 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
And what do you want? I sayed it at the last season. Hitch `s roster is according to sympathy with some players not only achievments. He destroyed self-confidence some players. I red interesting article about psyche and self-confidence. It supported my idea and experiences of swimmer and handball player.. Brule and Fritsche can thank him. I hope Filatov and Russell will not other in order.
Brule was "ruined" over a period of years and as a result of poor managerial planning and decision making that started with Doug Maclean. He was too young to play in the AHL and no one thought it was a good idea to send him back to Juniors where he'd already had tremendous success. By the time Hitchcock got here Brule had been left to sit in the pressbox through the entire months of October and November ... he was not not physically, emotionally, or intellectually prepared to contribute to the MESS of a team that Hitchcock inherited. Say what you will about Fritsche ... but he had his two most impressive seasons while playing under Hitch and I believe it was two unfortunate accidents in two successive seasons which put a damper on his performances here.

Russ is in Syracuse because Howson acquired two more veteran (but lesser skilled, lesser players) who now take up roster space that would be better utilized by developing Methot, Tollefson, and Russell. Frankly, the situation is what it is ... I don't like it, I don't like the trade that made it happen, and for all I know Hitch doesn't like it, but it's the logical choice for the short to medium term interests of this club.

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10-29-2008, 06:58 AM
  #111
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Isn't it hard to believe that Hitch didn't have a voice or blessing with any of these trades? Howson's smart enough to know that not getting Hitch type guys is an omen. Hitch is more of a nag type coach that is going to tell you more about what you did wrong than what your doing right. The kind of coach that a player thanks after the team makes a great run or wins a cup, but really doesn't have alot of fun along the way. He really knows his X's and O's, but building chemistry or letting players have a voice seems to be lacking. To say that Howson made these trades without consulting the Capt. seems ludicrious. The extension over the summer is bugging me now, it certainly wasn't the time to do it. You give a dog a treat when he brings the frisbee back, not when he's thinking about getting it.

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10-29-2008, 07:09 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
The game has passed that old man by and now we need to send him to the nursing home.
Hitchcock is 57. Whippersnapper!


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Old
10-29-2008, 07:24 AM
  #113
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Fire Mike Priest.

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10-29-2008, 07:26 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Hobieman View Post
Isn't it hard to believe that Hitch didn't have a voice or blessing with any of these trades? Howson's smart enough to know that not getting Hitch type guys is an omen. Hitch is more of a nag type coach that is going to tell you more about what you did wrong than what your doing right. The kind of coach that a player thanks after the team makes a great run or wins a cup, but really doesn't have alot of fun along the way. He really knows his X's and O's, but building chemistry or letting players have a voice seems to be lacking. To say that Howson made these trades without consulting the Capt. seems ludicrious. The extension over the summer is bugging me now, it certainly wasn't the time to do it. You give a dog a treat when he brings the frisbee back, not when he's thinking about getting it.
Then why do we waste perfectly good office space and salary paying Howson anything at all? Furthermore, Capn insists on blaming Hitchcock for picking "Hitch type players" for being the downfall of this squad, and then in the next breath turns around and tells us all that our current roster (all picked by Hitch!) is the "best Jacket roster" ever and he can't understand why all the team can do is lose. Which is the problem? The players, or the coaching?

I have been NOTHING but consistent since the FA season started ... the roster this franchise built over the summer did NOT MATCH, much less IMPROVE on the skill level or the "mental toughness" level of the players let go last season . I expected this team to struggle, I predicted it would struggle, and I am clearly then allowed to state that I'm not surprised this roster is struggling.

This roster is what it is, our Coach is who he is, and our GM ... well, apparently he's a waste of space and salary because Hitch does his job too.

?

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10-29-2008, 07:30 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Pluckfur View Post
Brule was "ruined" over a period of years and as a result of poor managerial planning and decision making that started with Doug Maclean. He was too young to play in the AHL and no one thought it was a good idea to send him back to Juniors where he'd already had tremendous success. By the time Hitchcock got here Brule had been left to sit in the pressbox through the entire months of October and November ... he was not not physically, emotionally, or intellectually prepared to contribute to the MESS of a team that Hitchcock inherited. Say what you will about Fritsche ... but he had his two most impressive seasons while playing under Hitch and I believe it was two unfortunate accidents in two successive seasons which put a damper on his performances here.
Exactly.

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10-29-2008, 07:30 AM
  #116
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Fire Mike Priest.

Fire Mike Todd.

(Isn't he old, too?)

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10-29-2008, 10:59 AM
  #117
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I know I've won when you start blithering the same crap, for the third time, all covered with snot.


My "quitting" isn't really an option at this point because I won the battle two full posts of yours, ago. I counterpointed every point you made and invalidated every argument you proffered.

Nice try, but no goal, Capn.
Ahh, the brilliant strategy of declaring "Mission Accomplished" when it really isn't. Where have I seen that before?

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10-29-2008, 11:29 AM
  #118
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Brule was "ruined" over a period of years and as a result of poor managerial planning and decision making that started with Doug Maclean. He was too young to play in the AHL and no one thought it was a good idea to send him back to Juniors where he'd already had tremendous success. By the time Hitchcock got here Brule had been left to sit in the pressbox through the entire months of October and November ... he was not not physically, emotionally, or intellectually prepared to contribute to the MESS of a team that Hitchcock inherited. Say what you will about Fritsche ... but he had his two most impressive seasons while playing under Hitch and I believe it was two unfortunate accidents in two successive seasons which put a damper on his performances here.

Russ is in Syracuse because Howson acquired two more veteran (but lesser skilled, lesser players) who now take up roster space that would be better utilized by developing Methot, Tollefson, and Russell. Frankly, the situation is what it is ... I don't like it, I don't like the trade that made it happen, and for all I know Hitch doesn't like it, but it's the logical choice for the short to medium term interests of this club.
Why Brule had been left to sit in the pressbox when he could play in AHL, when Syracuse hd been more centers inured)? Why Hitch didn`t help with psyche? Look at his ice-time, players in the line, one mistake and ice-time go down. And veterans - more mistake - nothing.

Was Brule physically prepared?

When I look at ice-time Dany Fritsche at the last season I haven`t same idea like you.

Russell and Filatov are better than more of ours players. So why haven`t they played? Why have Backman and Comodore, maybe Tjutin been here? If we want to sign defensmen why so average??? Russell is one of our the best defensmen. And he have played in AHL. Letang has got chance and he can show his qualities.

Our player politic is terrible and I`m not supresied we had never played in play-off. And if we will continue we will never play in play-off.

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10-29-2008, 02:35 PM
  #119
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I think that one of the problems the CBJ has had from the start has been the revolving door of coaches. Look at the successful expansion clubs (Minn, Nash)-they have had the same coach from day 1. I think it is time to give Hitch's system to work. When everyone has bought in it has worked.

On the other hand, for those looking for names for another coach, how about the first CBJ to retire as a Jacket? He was a great team leader (should have wore the 'C'), worked for the team in player developement and has had success as a head coach at the AHL level. Kevin Dineen anyone?

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10-29-2008, 03:18 PM
  #120
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Capn, I think you make your case very well to be honest, but its going to take alot more than a 3-6 start for me to get on board with the "Fire Hitchcock" movement.

I'm gonna take some **** for this comment, but the last 3 games have been our best all around performances. We can't seem to buy a break or a goal, frustrating. But if we keep playing like this, wins will follow and we'll get back on track.

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10-29-2008, 03:24 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by oxcamel View Post
I think that one of the problems the CBJ has had from the start has been the revolving door of coaches. Look at the successful expansion clubs (Minn, Nash)-they have had the same coach from day 1. I think it is time to give Hitch's system to work. When everyone has bought in it has worked.

On the other hand, for those looking for names for another coach, how about the first CBJ to retire as a Jacket? He was a great team leader (should have wore the 'C'), worked for the team in player developement and has had success as a head coach at the AHL level. Kevin Dineen anyone?
Probably you are right and I could be mistake.

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10-29-2008, 03:38 PM
  #122
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Capn, I think you make your case very well to be honest, but its going to take alot more than a 3-6 start for me to get on board with the "Fire Hitchcock" movement.

I'm gonna take some **** for this comment, but the last 3 games have been our best all around performances. We can't seem to buy a break or a goal, frustrating. But if we keep playing like this, wins will follow and we'll get back on track.
I actually agree with this...

9 games in...meh. I hate the losing, but I'm not ready to say things won't eventually work out for us this year (enough so that we would be in the playoffs)

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10-29-2008, 04:08 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
Why Brule had been left to sit in the pressbox when he could play in AHL, when Syracuse hd been more centers inured)? Why Hitch didn`t help with psyche? Look at his ice-time, players in the line, one mistake and ice-time go down. And veterans - more mistake - nothing.

Was Brule physically prepared?

When I look at ice-time Dany Fritsche at the last season I haven`t same idea like you.

Russell and Filatov are better than more of ours players. So why haven`t they played? Why have Backman and Comodore, maybe Tjutin been here? If we want to sign defensmen why so average??? Russell is one of our the best defensmen. And he have played in AHL. Letang has got chance and he can show his qualities.

Our player politic is terrible and I`m not supresied we had never played in play-off. And if we will continue we will never play in play-off.
I know that you too have always been consistent in your feelings and beliefs about Hitchcock and our young players. And I'm fine with you believing as you do. But in saying that, I don't think the problems this team is currently facing having anything to do with how Hitch coaches/plays young players. I say this for a couple of reasons:

Last year Rick and Nik had their best seasons under Hitch - they're weren't rookies, but they were very young when Hitch got a hold of them. This season our two best players on the ice (game in game out) are two ROOKIES.

Yes, I realize many want more ice time for the both Jake and Brass... and you know what? I think they'll get more time and considering these two rooks are only NINE games into their NHL careers, I'm not going to crap on the coaching staff for using some judgement and restraint nine games in.

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10-29-2008, 04:14 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
Capn, I think you make your case very well to be honest, but its going to take alot more than a 3-6 start for me to get on board with the "Fire Hitchcock" movement.

I'm gonna take some **** for this comment, but the last 3 games have been our best all around performances. We can't seem to buy a break or a goal, frustrating. But if we keep playing like this, wins will follow and we'll get back on track.
Wait. I don't see how those two successive thoughts can both be true. Could you clarify your position?

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10-29-2008, 04:19 PM
  #125
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I know that you too have always been consistent in your feelings and beliefs about Hitchcock and our young players. And I'm fine with you believing as you do. But in saying that, I don't think the problems this team is currently facing having anything to do with how Hitch coaches/plays young players. I say this for a couple of reasons:

Last year Rick and Nik had their best seasons under Hitch - they're weren't rookies, but they were very young when Hitch got a hold of them. This season our two best players on the ice (game in game out) are two ROOKIES.

Yes, I realize many want more ice time for the both Jake and Brass... and you know what? I think they'll get more time and considering these two rooks are only NINE games into their NHL careers, I'm not going to crap on the coaching staff for using some judgement and restraint nine games in.
YES! You're completely right! What I think the people have a gripe about (and what I have a gripe about too) is the amount of wheeling and dealing that the organization has done to get "quality players" who can fill the void(s), and the fact that said "quality players" are not filling the void(s), and that the number in the win column is not nearly as high as it should be.

I'm restless. I want to win. My god, with the exception of the 2005 Bengals, my three favorite franchises haven't reached the playoffs since 1995. The easy way out is to blame the coach. Step back and look at upper management first.

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