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The Trade Myth- Fact or Fiction?

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Old
02-10-2009, 08:55 AM
  #1
Canadian_Brewtality
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The Trade Myth- Fact or Fiction?

Trade
Bob has to trade
please we need a shake-up, lets trade.
Trade player A
Trade Player B

It seems to be the sentiment felt across the habs nation. Pull the trigger bob, we have no choice. But does he actually have a choice?

Look around the NHL, WHO TRADES? No one.
Do you want to see the top teams in the NHL?

Detroit- last significant trade anyone? They got there players through draft and the UFA market.
Boston- last significant trade? once again, drafting and UFA`s.
San Jose- The only arguable case here since they pciked up both Thornton and Boyle. But in both cases you can argue they were at the right place at thr right time.
Devils- drafting, UFA, and more drafting.
Calgary- Kipper trade was what- 5 years ago? besides that it was Cammelarri on draft day. But once again, drafting, UFA`s.
Chicago- All there top players- UFA and drafting.


and so on.

Since the lockout, there are only 2 kinds of trades. The trade deadline buyers and sellers, and draft day when teams try and set the tone for the next year.
Besides that no team trades when they need a shakeup. The CAP dosent allow for such an occurence. It is a rare alignment that two teams can trade assets that both need and manage to fit it all under the CAP perfectly.

Maybe some of you dont agree and thats fine, but no team with any success has made any huge impact trades since the lockout. I havent scanned the entire league, but besides SJ`s good fortunes and Pittsburgh Hossa deal which brought them to the finals, nothing comes to mind. But look where Pittsburgh is now.

Not to mention that Gainey dosent have any real direction at this point.
What can he do? Trade our youth? What can he get in return that will warrant the rapeing of our farm system...and even so, will it be even worth it?
How about tradeing some of our UFA`s and Vets? Then he is basically saying see you later to the 100th year of the franchise.
Trading pleks and or higgins? what value do these players actually have after such a brutal season.

Unless Gainey fools us all and gets extremely creative, this team will have to be built once again, staying the course of drafting and UFA`s. Trading with any significance is a pipe dream in the CAP era.

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02-10-2009, 09:15 AM
  #2
smon
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Gainey's not exactly great at signing UFAs though, right? The Bruins got their franchise player in Chara through UFA and their best centre Marc Savard through UFA - we got Roman Hamrlik, Tom Kostopoulous, etc. Not to say that we signed unhelpful players, but they weren't impact first liners exactly. And the Canadiens have been needing to get a top flight game changing player, a franchise player if you will, for years.

If we can't get one through UFA, then we can either trade for one or develop one. The team doesn't suck enough to get top 5 picks, so there's low chances of drafting one (unless we pull off something like Philly getting Mike Richards with a late pick). That leaves one option - trade.

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02-10-2009, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smon View Post
Gainey's not exactly great at signing UFAs though, right? The Bruins got their franchise player in Chara through UFA and their best centre Marc Savard through UFA - we got Roman Hamrlik, Tom Kostopoulous, etc. Not to say that we signed unhelpful players, but they weren't impact first liners exactly. And the Canadiens have been needing to get a top flight game changing player, a franchise player if you will, for years.

If we can't get one through UFA, then we can either trade for one or develop one. The team doesn't suck enough to get top 5 picks, so there's low chances of drafting one (unless we pull off something like Philly getting Mike Richards with a late pick). That leaves one option - trade.

Even when we have the chance,we still don't,Carter,Getzlaf,Parise,Richards,Kopitar and many many more

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02-10-2009, 09:23 AM
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Watch what Brian Burke does in Toronto in the next 6-8 months, if you want to see a real GM at work.

He's already started getting rid of dead weight and will be a big player this summer.

I expect them to make a run at Camalleri and others.

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02-10-2009, 09:24 AM
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smon
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Even when we have the chance,we still don't,Carter,Getzlaf,Parise,Richards,Kopitar and many many more
I'd say the drafting has been very good. Overall, especially with the later round successes. Yes, certain picks e.g. the AK one in 2003 look weak now, but he's still proven himself to be a top-six forward. At least he's not a bust in any measure. So they flubbed there just a little bit. They didn't pick a useless player, just one who isn't as good as some of the others drafted after him. I'm not sold on how well the first round picks in some other years were (e.g. David Fischer), but others look like gold - Pacioretty, McDonagh, Price.

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02-10-2009, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Even when we have the chance,we still don't,Carter,Getzlaf,Parise,Richards,Kopitar and many many more
Kopitar doesn't fill this list. He was drafted in 2005, we took Price instead.

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02-10-2009, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by smon View Post
I'd say the drafting has been very good. Overall, especially with the later round successes. Yes, certain picks e.g. the AK one in 2003 look weak now, but he's still proven himself to be a top-six forward. At least he's not a bust in any measure. So they flubbed there just a little bit. They didn't pick a useless player, just one who isn't as good as some of the others drafted after him. I'm not sold on how well the first round picks in some other years were (e.g. David Fischer), but others look like gold - Pacioretty, McDonagh, Price.
Kostitsyn and Fischer picks were brutal, considering.

Some good some bad, but Timmins is no genius like some here would like to say.

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02-10-2009, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Even when we have the chance,we still don't,Carter,Getzlaf,Parise,Richards,Kopitar and many many more
Agreed on Getzlaf Parise Richards but you have to remember there were a dozen teams who missed the boat on those players as well before Philly NJ and Anaheim selected them. Kopitar....I'm still rather happy Montreal drafted Price with that pick.

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02-10-2009, 09:33 AM
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I think that blaming Bob Gainey for his inability to trade for or sign UFAs is completely stupid. There is a horrible misconception on this board about why a player(UFA) signs somewhere else other than Montreal. I have a question for you all, If this was 1976 and Marian Hossa or Vincent Lecavailier or any other so called "star " player had the chance to play with the likes of Lafleur,Shutt, Robinson,Gainey, Dryden etc.. don't you think they woul'dnt jump for the chance? A ufa or big name player with a no trade clause has to see some potential to win (Sundin for example) in order to want to be with any team. Why do you think Hossa left for Detroit? He could have stayed with Crosby and Malkin, but he left because guys like Ryan Malone and other character players had left, he knew they came up short last year and he knew they would'nt do it this year either. He was right, Pitt will be lucky to make the playoffs. So it's not about Montreal or the pressure or becuse Montreal is a pre-dominantly French city that's just BS. It is about potential, and the bottom line is it just was'nt here last summer and it won't be here this summer either.

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02-10-2009, 09:33 AM
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There aren't many old-fashioned trades anymore, anyway. It's mostly deadline rentals/rebuilds or salary cap juggling. We've done ok both ways in those respects (renting Kovalev, renting out Rivet, picking up Lang and Tanguay). But it's counterproductive to try to make a "REAL TRADE" where you give up real assets, when you know every July 1st there will be all kinds of players in every category available for just money. And then more cap juggling players available cheaper when other teams spend all their money. And then more deadline rentals available if your summer shopping turns out to have left a few holes open down the stretch...

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02-10-2009, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Watch what Brian Burke does in Toronto in the next 6-8 months, if you want to see a real GM at work.

He's already started getting rid of dead weight and will be a big player this summer.

I expect them to make a run at Camalleri and others.

That's easy to do when you're bottom feeding and looking to completely rebuild. Montreal's problem is they never really were a bottom feeder, they always hovered in around that last playoff spot even during the Houle days when they really sucked. How do start a firesale when competint for a playoff spot. Toronto has that "LUXURY"
to sell everything because of the position they are in.

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02-10-2009, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nittany View Post
Kostitsyn and Fischer picks were brutal, considering.

Some good some bad, but Timmins is no genius like some here would like to say.
It's the later rounds as smon said where the case may be made for genius (or good luck, same thing).

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02-10-2009, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Mats NAslund View Post
That's easy to do when you're bottom feeding and looking to completely rebuild. Montreal's problem is they never really were a bottom feeder, they always hovered in around that last playoff spot even during the Houle days when they really sucked. How do start a firesale when competint for a playoff spot. Toronto has that "LUXURY"
to sell everything because of the position they are in.
It has nothing to do with being a bottom feeder - it's about making the right selections and ensuring that the players you bring in are willing to pay the price for the team.

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02-10-2009, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by smon View Post
Gainey's not exactly great at signing UFAs though, right? The Bruins got their franchise player in Chara through UFA and their best centre Marc Savard through UFA - we got Roman Hamrlik, Tom Kostopoulous, etc. Not to say that we signed unhelpful players, but they weren't impact first liners exactly. And the Canadiens have been needing to get a top flight game changing player, a franchise player if you will, for years.

If we can't get one through UFA, then we can either trade for one or develop one. The team doesn't suck enough to get top 5 picks, so there's low chances of drafting one (unless we pull off something like Philly getting Mike Richards with a late pick). That leaves one option - trade.
UFA`s in general are not inclined to sign here, but thats when its up to the GM to change the culture of the team, to give a great sales pitch.
This up coming summer, we can arguably have 20-25 million in spending. This will be a make it or break it off season for the next 3-4 years.

And the top 5 pick is a myth as well. San Jose (Setoguchi, Clowe, Vlasic, Cheechoo), Detroit (Hudler, Franzen, Krnowall, Fillipula), New Jersey (Zajac, Parise, clarkson, Odyuya), havent had significant top picks in the last 5-7 drafts, yet, all have impact players.

We spent our top 5 on Price and we should have, but besides him, we dont have anybody else with star caliber skill.

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02-10-2009, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by smon View Post
I'd say the drafting has been very good. Overall, especially with the later round successes. Yes, certain picks e.g. the AK one in 2003 look weak now, but he's still proven himself to be a top-six forward. At least he's not a bust in any measure. So they flubbed there just a little bit. They didn't pick a useless player, just one who isn't as good as some of the others drafted after him. I'm not sold on how well the first round picks in some other years were (e.g. David Fischer), but others look like gold - Pacioretty, McDonagh, Price.
They took a big chance on Kostitsyn and they shouldn't have when they knew those guy's like Getzlaf,Carter and Richards were already better.

I wonder what Andrei could bring back in return of a potential trade,just curious

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02-10-2009, 09:40 AM
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Kopitar doesn't fill this list. He was drafted in 2005, we took Price instead.
Thing is when we drafted him,Habs weren't in trouble in goal for the future,why did they go that route?Anyways I guess they know more then us but man would Kopitar ever look good right now in Montreal!!

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02-10-2009, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
They took a big chance on Kostitsyn and they shouldn't have when they knew those guy's like Getzlaf,Carter and Richards were already better.

I wonder what Andrei could bring back in return of a potential trade,just curious
Or Parise, Burns, Seabrook and Corey Perry who were all under their noses... pathetic.

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02-10-2009, 09:46 AM
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Or Parise, Burns, Seabrook and Corey Perry who were all under their noses... pathetic.
I'm mad cause they gamble on Kostitsyn(health issues) when they already knew some of those guys we're going to be superstars.Anyways not just the Habs made mistakes on that draft year

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02-10-2009, 09:47 AM
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There aren't many old-fashioned trades anymore, anyway. It's mostly deadline rentals/rebuilds or salary cap juggling. We've done ok both ways in those respects (renting Kovalev, renting out Rivet, picking up Lang and Tanguay). But it's counterproductive to try to make a "REAL TRADE" where you give up real assets, when you know every July 1st there will be all kinds of players in every category available for just money. And then more cap juggling players available cheaper when other teams spend all their money. And then more deadline rentals available if your summer shopping turns out to have left a few holes open down the stretch...
It seems that substantive trades only happen at the deadline. That being said, the Habs need to be active because the current group of players will go nowhere if they make the playoffs.

They either have to add a couple of major pieces (top 4 D, big C) which will cost them young players, prospects and draft picks. If Price gets back to normal, this should solidify the team and maybe they could make a decent playoff run.

Or they trade away impending UFAs, RFAs and big salaries and have tons of $$ to spend next year and get good young players and prospects for the traded players.

I know the value of a Kovalev or a Plekanec is not that high right now but it will increase by the deadline and should fetch decent returns. What would Hamrlik be worth at the deadline to a real contender?

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02-10-2009, 10:05 AM
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It seems that substantive trades only happen at the deadline. That being said, the Habs need to be active because the current group of players will go nowhere if they make the playoffs.

They either have to add a couple of major pieces (top 4 D, big C) which will cost them young players, prospects and draft picks. If Price gets back to normal, this should solidify the team and maybe they could make a decent playoff run.

Or they trade away impending UFAs, RFAs and big salaries and have tons of $$ to spend next year and get good young players and prospects for the traded players.

I know the value of a Kovalev or a Plekanec is not that high right now but it will increase by the deadline and should fetch decent returns. What would Hamrlik be worth at the deadline to a real contender?
That is the dilemma...add some pieces hoping it will all come together...or sell off assets that you wont re-sign and hope to get some nice return.

I wouldnt want to be Gainey right now.

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02-10-2009, 10:12 AM
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Watch what Brian Burke does in Toronto in the next 6-8 months, if you want to see a real GM at work.

He's already started getting rid of dead weight and will be a big player this summer.

I expect them to make a run at Camalleri and others.



No surprise this comment is coming from you...

Do you actually realize that Brian Burke would actually do much worse than BG in Montreal with the conditions he would have here?

I'd be extremely surprised if TO becomes a contender anytime soon. Get a clue.

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02-10-2009, 10:15 AM
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Or Parise, Burns, Seabrook and Corey Perry who were all under their noses... pathetic.
Hmmm, that was Savard's drafting team, his scouting. It's been said before that Timmins wanted to draft someone else than AKost.

What's pathetic is people thinking that scouts and GMs have crystal balls to see what a player will become. That is truly pathetic.

Funny how we only see you on the board when the team is in a drought.

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02-10-2009, 10:16 AM
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No surprise this comment is coming from you...

Do you actually realize that Brian Burke would actually do much worse than BG in Montreal with the conditions he would have here?

I'd be extremely surprised if TO becomes a contender anytime soon. Get a clue.
Burke is considered around the league as probably the best GM around. You don't agree?

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02-10-2009, 10:17 AM
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Hmmm, that was Savard's drafting team, his scouting. It's been said before that Timmins wanted to draft someone else than AKost.

What's pathetic is people thinking that scouts and GMs have crystal balls to see what a player will become. That is truly pathetic.

Funny how we only see you on the board when the team is in a drought.
Not true. Timmins was in charge of the draft and Savard's team was on it's way out. Don't let facts get in the way.

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02-10-2009, 10:21 AM
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Just be happy that some of the posters in this thread have their fingers nowhere near the trigger.

Truth is, poor play of late aside, this is not a 'bad' team. The people in charge won't sell the farm for a rental, or handicap themselves with salary for years going forward.

I wasn't overly excited about the signings of Lang and Tanguay, particularly after the way we exited the playoffs last season. Yet I'm sure I can find posts by the same guys who are crying to blow it up now going over the top about those guys coming in.

If Bob has a failing it has been in choosing to add pure skill guys (enough in the system) without mixing in a couple of guys who can balance that out decent skill + physicality.

The shake-up will happen, but it won't be a situation where we're dealing from a point of weakness.

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