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Old
11-05-2008, 06:13 PM
  #126
Rowdy Roddy Peeper
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Originally Posted by NJD8 View Post
Does defense only come into consideration when we're discussing Jordan Staal?
It can be a little overrated when discussing a player who is already adequate in his own end, just coming off a Hart runner-up year, and currently leading the league in scoring.

If professional hockey observers and Malkin and Datsyuk's peers thought that Datsyuk's defense more than made up for Malkin's offensive advantage, they would've made Pavel a finalist for the Hart and Pearson instead of Geno.

They didn't, and so he wasn't. But maybe you know more than people who are paid to comment on and play the game at its highest level, and feel comfortable in judging their relative talents based on a series in which one was noticeably unhealthy and off his game.


Last edited by Rowdy Roddy Peeper: 11-05-2008 at 06:21 PM.
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11-05-2008, 06:15 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
I ment the tandom sucked. As in Crosby couldnt make Roberts or Leclair look good. Vs. Dats making (a washed up) Hull look good.
You can't simply check up hockeydb and take two random old guys on Pittsburgh who didn't produce and presume they played with Crosby. Neither Roberts nor Leclair played regularly with him.

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11-05-2008, 06:16 PM
  #128
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Also I'll take a washed up Hull over a washed up Roberts or Leclair any day.

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11-05-2008, 06:18 PM
  #129
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Now this is just getting annoying. Lets stop citing Dats stats when he was x age. They dont prove your point mearly mislead people.

1st. Pre-lockout was a different game entirely. (malkin probably woulda started in the minors not as a mvp canidate)

2nd. Dats did not get 1st/2nd line time like Malkin did/ does. You debate it all you want but Malkin gets the sweet minutes Dats never got. Dats played on the third line with Boyd Deveraux and Brett Hull (i know a horrible line mate) But you can dis this all you want but Crosby sucked with Robersts/Lecair so the fact that Dats made Grampa Hull look like Grampa Hull is somewhat of a testimate to his abilities.

If Dats first year was after the lockout (in the wide open league) and he was given first line minutes his point totals would have been higher. THis is a FACT.

We can debate all we want as to how much higher but it really doesnt matter. Detroit wasnt a horrible team when Dats came into the league and we were able to burry him in our depth chart. Malkin was not so lucky.


Who really knows who woulda been better if their development paths switched. Its not clear so lets not assume.

Yeah because Hull was terrible all throughout his career, what a jack, i bet he never even hit 70+ goals in a season

In the minors? Wow, this post went downhill after that whining about Dats getting this or that with minutes and Sid and his linemates, still put up 100+ pts in his rookie year so that's that.

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Old
11-05-2008, 06:21 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Now this is just getting annoying. Lets stop citing Dats stats when he was x age. They dont prove your point mearly mislead people.

1st. Pre-lockout was a different game entirely. (malkin probably woulda started in the minors not as a mvp canidate)

2nd. Dats did not get 1st/2nd line time like Malkin did/ does. You debate it all you want but Malkin gets the sweet minutes Dats never got. Dats played on the third line with Boyd Deveraux and Brett Hull (i know a horrible line mate) But you can dis this all you want but Crosby sucked with Robersts/Lecair so the fact that Dats made Grampa Hull look like Grampa Hull is somewhat of a testimate to his abilities.

If Dats first year was after the lockout (in the wide open league) and he was given first line minutes his point totals would have been higher. THis is a FACT.

We can debate all we want as to how much higher but it really doesnt matter. Detroit wasnt a horrible team when Dats came into the league and we were able to burry him in our depth chart. Malkin was not so lucky.


Who really knows who woulda been better if their development paths switched. Its not clear so lets not assume.
The only thing i will say to this is no to Malkin starting in the minors, when him and Ovetchkin were pushed to compete as soon as they came over...Now or then...

As long as Yzerman was there Datsuk was in the after burners, but Malkin is behind Crosby and is still better than him, then and now.Defencively datsuk is the better player after years of being in the league,lets give Malkin a few years to see if he warrants to be in the same class on the d-side. But over all as a player right now Malkin is the better player overall due to he can possibly be well past Datsuk by the time he is 30 years old..

Sorry but an average of goals = 23.6 assists = 49.1 points = 72.8 over 6 NHL. seasons is not going to get it done.. i will put Datsuk were he belongs the top two way Center in the league...But this does not mean he is the best Center in the league period...hes just the best two way...Even if they all started at the same time, Datsuk would still get passed over, just because of what round he was taken in.
1998 6th round 171st over all....he would start in the minors while Malkin starts in NHL right away...That just the way it is now or then....

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Old
11-05-2008, 06:46 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Keep saying hes 3-5 and it makes it true.
The following are better...

Crosby
Ovi
Dats
Zetts
Finger
Thornton
Ilya Kova....
Lidstrom

Is it homer to list 3 redwings even though they just won the cup???



Well, the fact that he finished second in the Hart race and he finished 6 points shy of the Art Ross and watching almost every game he as played for the last 2 years, then yeah, I'm gonna go with top 3-5.

And as far as you listing Red Wings better than him, I disagree with them all with the exception of Lidstrom. The Wings won the Cup as a team, not as a collection of individuals.

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Old
11-05-2008, 06:48 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by NJD8 View Post
Does defense only come into consideration when we're discussing Jordan Staal?

Did Datsyuk finish 6 points away from an Art Ross and second in Hart voting last year?

No?

That's what I thought.

Seriously. Malkin is better than Pavel as a whole. It's ok for Pavel to be worse than Malkin. Malkin is that damn good.

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11-05-2008, 06:50 PM
  #133
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Let me point this out. had Crosby or Malkin been drafted in 98 as Datsuk. They would have had a Right winger named Jarmir Jagr. he might not have left, but since he did cause the pens did not have anyone to play with him and could not afford him if they had to get someone. I think he could have if these two came along.Well lets just say, about 5 to 8 Scoring titles later they would be changing your tune.... now thats just if they were in the 98 season.From 1997/98 to 2000/01 Jagr won 4 straight scoring championships...

Does this clear things up a bit!


all while Datsuk is in the minors!!!


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Old
11-05-2008, 06:53 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Psilencer View Post
Did Datsyuk finish 6 points away from an Art Ross and second in Hart voting last year?

No?

That's what I thought.

Seriously. Malkin is better than Pavel as a whole. It's ok for Pavel to be worse than Malkin. Malkin is that damn good.
Did Malkin have a +41 rating, win the Selke and the Stanley Cup last year?

No?

That's what I thought.

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11-05-2008, 06:57 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD8 View Post
Did Malkin have a +41 rating, win the Selke and the Stanley Cup last year?

No?

That's what I thought.
+/- is a stupid stat.
The Stanley cup is a team achievement or does Datsyuk have a stanley cup sitting at home?
I'll take Hart finalist>Selke tbh.

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11-05-2008, 07:06 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by doctordark View Post
You can't simply check up hockeydb and take two random old guys on Pittsburgh who didn't produce and presume they played with Crosby. Neither Roberts nor Leclair played regularly with him.
LOL... Yes i know my point was that they were tried with him and they didnt work.

Hull worked with Dats. Draw infrences you want from it. But as soon as Hull left Dats he went to phoenix realized he sucked and retired.


Dats made Hull look better in his hold age then Crosby was able to do for Leclair or Roberts or Palffy... Take your pick. This could be a testimate to Hull but i think its a bigger testimate to Dats. Hull was absolutely finished once he left Dats wing. Without Dats he mighta been done sooner. On the other hand you can argue the post lockout game was too fast for hull. Hard to tell. 68 points on the third line pre lockout with a Hull (who in all likelyhood was ready to retire ala roberts/Leclair) and Boyd the Void is pretty impressive.

I am not sure Crosby could have done that let alone Malkin. My point isnt that Malkin or Crosby suck but rather then comparing Dats Youth stats to Malkin is pointless and shows nothing. Different worlds.

P.S. I dont think nor am I saying that Hull sucked during his career. But his career is really not all that different from Leclairs at the turn of the lockout.


As for malkin in the minors I appologize that comment was crude and not clear. My point was more that players werent brought into the NHL as fast prelockout as they are post lockout. He may have stayed in Russia another year, he may have languished on the 4th line. Its hard to argue that pre lockout he would have been sucessful as he was post lockout.

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11-05-2008, 07:10 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
+/- is a stupid stat.
The Stanley cup is a team achievement or does Datsyuk have a stanley cup sitting at home?
I'll take Hart finalist>Selke tbh.
In some ways the MVP is an award based on team factors as well.

In malkins case Crosby was injured and he was given first line minutes being forced to get more ice time and carry the team.

It should also be noted that you dont get MVP if your team doesnt make the playoffs. You also rarely get the MVP when you have 3 of the top 10 players in the league on ur team (and playing).

DATS/ZETTS/LIDS Lower each others MVP chance
CROSBY/Malkin lower each others mvp chance
Crosby being injured Raised Malkins chance.
Ovi playing with no one of note (semin maybe) increases his MVP chance
Thornton turning scrubs like Cheecho into 40 goal scorers increases MVP chance


Stacked teams have a hard time making a case for having the MVP.

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11-05-2008, 07:11 PM
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
LOL... Yes i know my point was that they were tried with him and they didnt work.

Hull worked with Dats. Draw infrences you want from it. But as soon as Hull left Dats he went to phoenix realized he sucked and retired.


Dats made Hull look better in his hold age then Crosby was able to do for Leclair or Roberts or Palffy... Take your pick. This could be a testimate to Hull but i think its a bigger testimate to Dats. Hull was absolutely finished once he left Dats wing. Without Dats he mighta been done sooner. On the other hand you can argue the post lockout game was too fast for hull. Hard to tell. 68 points on the third line pre lockout with a Hull (who in all likelyhood was ready to retire ala roberts/Leclair) and Boyd the Void is pretty impressive.

I am not sure Crosby could have done that let alone Malkin. My point isnt that Malkin or Crosby suck but rather then comparing Dats Youth stats to Malkin is pointless and shows nothing. Different worlds.

P.S. I dont think nor am I saying that Hull sucked during his career. But his career is really not all that different from Leclairs at the turn of the lockout.


As for malkin in the minors I appologize that comment was crude and not clear. My point was more that players werent brought into the NHL as fast prelockout as they are post lockout. He may have stayed in Russia another year, he may have languished on the 4th line. Its hard to argue that pre lockout he would have been sucessful as he was post lockout.
You keep saying that Dats made Hull look better than Leclair or Roberts but you seem to ignore the fact that Hull was better than Leclair or Roberts for his whole career (there may be a couple of seasons of exceptions I can't be bothered looking) not sure why you think Crosby could not achieve the same thing with Hull are you suggesting that Datsyuk is a better play maker than Crosby? if anything Hull would have done much better with Sid all he would have had to do was finish off Sids magic which Hull was still capable of unlike Roberts or Leclair who never had the shot or finishing skills of Hull to begin with. Seriously it isn't even a remotely good comparison to compare Hull to Roberts or Leclair and you ignore the fact that Crosby barely even played with either of them so your basing your argument on things that barely actually happened. Crosby turned Hilbert into a ppg player while he was on the Pens why do you not mention that? I'll take a washed up Hull over Andy Hilbert.

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11-05-2008, 07:13 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJD8 View Post
Did Malkin have a +41 rating, win the Selke and the Stanley Cup last year?

No?

That's what I thought.
Plus minus and the Stanley cup are only a factor of team play...What was the other players on his line and on defences +/- numbers? thought so!!!


Team play stats...If Datsuk had that and the rest was not even close then maybe...

Last i remember the Redwings won the cup...Not Datsuk, unless the players are all named, Pavel Datsuk!

Lets see Malkin 106 points closest to him on the team was Crosby's 72, get the difference...thats an individual stat because he can get points with out assists from other people..+/- is given to all the players on the ice for Goals for and against!!!!

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11-05-2008, 07:14 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
In some ways the MVP is an award based on team factors as well.

In malkins case Crosby was injured and he was given first line minutes being forced to get more ice time and carry the team.

It should also be noted that you dont get MVP if your team doesnt make the playoffs. You also rarely get the MVP when you have 3 of the top 10 players in the league on ur team (and playing).

DATS/ZETTS/LIDS Lower each others MVP chance
CROSBY/Malkin lower each others mvp chance
Crosby being injured Raised Malkins chance.
Ovi playing with no one of note (semin maybe) increases his MVP chance
Thornton turning scrubs like Cheecho into 40 goal scorers increases MVP chance


Stacked teams have a hard time making a case for having the MVP.
Don't see anything in here that makes me reconsider my stance that I will take a Hart finalist over a Selke winner any day. Cheech is far from a scrub, if Dats/Zetts/Lids lower each others chances why do you not say the same for Gonchar lowering Malkins? Gonchar was what 4th in Norris voting, neither Datsyuk or Zetterberg are better than 4th amongst forwards so you count them but you conveniently don't count a guy who worked out 4th amongst defenseman in the league?

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11-05-2008, 07:14 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by odds View Post
Let me point this out. had Crosby or Malkin been drafted in 98 as Datsuk. They would have had a Right winger named Jarmir Jagr. he might not have left, but since he did cause the pens did not have anyone to play with him and could not afford him if they had to get someone. I think he could have if these two came along.Well lets just say, about 5 to 8 Scoring titles later they would be changing your tune.... now thats just if they were in the 98 season.From 1997/98 to 2000/01 Jagr won 4 straight scoring championships...

Does this clear things up a bit!


all while Datsuk is in the minors!!!
Read that back to yourself. That is hardly readable.

Datsyuk had 97 points and wiped the floor with his competition for the selke.

Good for Malkin but I think it is ridiculous to compare Malkin's defensive play to Datsyuk's offensive play.

And if someone says age one more time I'm going to blow a gasket.

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11-05-2008, 07:15 PM
  #142
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If youd like we can revisit this in June again and talk about all the reasons the Pens just werent good enough to win the cup. Hell we can say the same next year. Then we can begin to wonder why they have so much talent but just cant pull it together. Dats is a winner. Malkin hasnt matured to the level to show he can make personal sacrifices for the team to win. I think of Steve Yzerman pre Scotty Bowman when i think of Malkin. All the talent and personal records in the world but he doesnt get that cup till he gives it all up and plays defense like Dats already does.
Then why would Detroit want him if he isn't a winner? Get your head out of your ass and stop spewing ******** arrogant posts because your team won the Stanley Cup last year.

Secondly, maybe he hasn't matured, but he's 21, wouldn't you say he has time? What exactly was Datsyuk doing at 21? Carrying a team lacking its #1 center and #1 goalie to the 2nd place in the conference?

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11-05-2008, 07:19 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Tek_Jansen View Post
Then why would Detroit want him if he isn't a winner? Get your head out of your ass and stop spewing ******** arrogant posts because your team won the Stanley Cup last year.

Secondly, maybe he hasn't matured, but he's 21, wouldn't you say he has time? What exactly was Datsyuk doing at 21? Carrying a team lacking its #1 center and #1 goalie to the 2nd place in the conference?
Perhaps if teams had better scouting staff he could. Do you really think his talent reflects his time picked in the draft? And can you blame Detroit management letting him get ice time in russia instead of play limited minutes with a stacked roster?

He was actually passed up by Detroit's scouting staff one year because of his size.

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11-05-2008, 07:20 PM
  #144
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Don't see anything in here that makes me reconsider my stance that I will take a Hart finalist over a Selke winner any day. Cheech is far from a scrub, if Dats/Zetts/Lids lower each others chances why do you not say the same for Gonchar lowering Malkins? Gonchar was what 4th in Norris voting, neither Datsyuk or Zetterberg are better than 4th amongst forwards so you count them but you conveniently don't count a guy who worked out 4th amongst defenseman in the league?
Oh i dont necessarilly disagree with you. All in the details. A Selke winner top 3 in points> Hart finalist imo.

A generic Hart finalist> generic Selke Winner (Draper/Brindy etc)

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11-05-2008, 07:21 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Tek_Jansen View Post
Then why would Detroit want him if he isn't a winner? Get your head out of your ass and stop spewing ******** arrogant posts because your team won the Stanley Cup last year.

Secondly, maybe he hasn't matured, but he's 21, wouldn't you say he has time? What exactly was Datsyuk doing at 21? Carrying a team lacking its #1 center and #1 goalie to the 2nd place in the conference?
Erm i voted this trade down in the begining . I just arguing the value is fair. I think Detroit says no to this deal because of intangibles... Being a winner is one of many but honestly thats pretty minor. Like you said the kid was 21 carrying his team. That is pretty impresive in its own right.

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11-05-2008, 07:21 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
Perhaps if teams had better scouting staff he could. Do you really think his talent reflects his time picked in the draft? And can you blame Detroit management letting him get ice time in russia instead of play limited minutes with a stacked roster?

He was actually passed up by Detroit's scouting staff one year because of his size.
These points don't change the fact that at 21 Malkin was amongst the very best players in the world and Datsyuk was a nobody.

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11-05-2008, 07:22 PM
  #147
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These points don't change the fact that at 21 Malkin was amongst the very best players in the world and Datsyuk was a nobody.
Well I give Malkin props for being more famous at his age.

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11-05-2008, 07:24 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
In some ways the MVP is an award based on team factors as well.

In malkins case Crosby was injured and he was given first line minutes being forced to get more ice time and carry the team.

It should also be noted that you dont get MVP if your team doesnt make the playoffs. You also rarely get the MVP when you have 3 of the top 10 players in the league on ur team (and playing).

DATS/ZETTS/LIDS Lower each others MVP chance
CROSBY/Malkin lower each others mvp chance
Crosby being injured Raised Malkins chance.
Ovi playing with no one of note (semin maybe) increases his MVP chance
Thornton turning scrubs like Cheecho into 40 goal scorers increases MVP chance


Stacked teams have a hard time making a case for having the MVP.
Yet again and again those players are the winners of the mvp.. if you win the scoring title..9 times out of ten, they win it..unless a goaly wins it for taken a team that had no right to be in the playoffs, but do on a hefty Say 40 win season and they go deep in the playoffs, could counter a scoring leader of a Hundred points...

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11-05-2008, 07:24 PM
  #149
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Oh i dont necessarilly disagree with you. All in the details. A Selke winner top 3 in points> Hart finalist imo.

A generic Hart finalist> generic Selke Winner (Draper/Brindy etc)
Except Malkin you put up details for Datsyuk but not for Malkin, Malkin was not just a generic Hart finalist he did it at age 21.

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11-05-2008, 07:25 PM
  #150
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Erm i voted this trade down in the begining . I just arguing the value is fair. I think Detroit says no to this deal because of intangibles... Being a winner is one of many but honestly thats pretty minor. Like you said the kid was 21 carrying his team. That is pretty impresive in its own right.
My apologies, I should have read what you thought of the trade more carefully.

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