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DET - PIT Trade

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Old
11-05-2008, 07:25 PM
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
Well I give Malkin props for being more famous at his age.
Lol it isn't just more famous he is obviously far superior to what Datsyuk was at 21.

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11-05-2008, 07:27 PM
  #152
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Even for arguments sake accepting Datsyuk to be better than Malkin atm, the fact that you can even make an argument about it despite Malkin being 21 and Datsyuk being 30 is why this deal is not at all fair.

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11-05-2008, 07:27 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
Read that back to yourself. That is hardly readable.

Datsyuk had 97 points and wiped the floor with his competition for the selke.

Good for Malkin but I think it is ridiculous to compare Malkin's defensive play to Datsyuk's offensive play.

And if someone says age one more time I'm going to blow a gasket.



AGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

LOL!!!!

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11-05-2008, 07:28 PM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Lol it isn't just more famous he is obviously far superior to what Datsyuk was at 21.
Well I'd love to see your scouting notes.

You seem to think scouting is perfect. I mean that's why two players like Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg were drafted so late right?

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11-05-2008, 07:28 PM
  #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odds View Post
AGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
To be fair with what you posted about Malkin being drafted in 98 we would have been too broke to keep Malkin and Jagr around in those days so the point kind of doesn't work he just would have been another great talent that we saw leaving the Pens.

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11-05-2008, 07:29 PM
  #156
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11-05-2008, 07:29 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
Well I'd love to see your scouting notes.

You seem to think scouting is perfect. I mean that's why two players like Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg were drafted so late right?
My scouting notes indicate that at 21 Malkin was one of the most dominating players in the best league in the world and Datsyuk was nothing.

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11-05-2008, 07:29 PM
  #158
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I will just end this never ending argument.

Malkin is a great player.

Datsyuk is a great player.

Datsyuk is more all around.

Malkin is 21.

Hooray for all stars!

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11-05-2008, 07:30 PM
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Except Malkin you put up details for Datsyuk but not for Malkin, Malkin was not just a generic Hart finalist he did it at age 21.
21 year old, 2nd in points, MVP finalist No PK time Tons of powerplay minutes

vs.

Selke Winner, 3rd in points, +- winner, Who played less minutes on the powerplay, Had more points per minute once u factor out PK time... You have to realize Dats averaged 2-3 Min a game of PK time....



Im sorry but its not close. Malkin is young sure. But Dats is a better player today and probably for the near future.

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11-05-2008, 07:30 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
My scouting notes indicate that at 21 Malkin was one of the most dominating players in the best league in the world and Datsyuk was nothing.
Perhaps we should get him a contract in Hollywood.

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11-05-2008, 07:30 PM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odds View Post
well it's true, we should be extremely thankful we drafted Malkin over the last few years rather than back then when we would have lost him to some 20 million contract to the Rangers or something to be replaced by some asswad like Oliwa.

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Old
11-05-2008, 07:31 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
To be fair with what you posted about Malkin being drafted in 98 we would have been too broke to keep Malkin and Jagr around in those days so the point kind of doesn't work he just would have been another great talent that we saw leaving the Pens.
Not true at all...infusion of young cheaper talent which is what the team lacked...

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11-05-2008, 07:32 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
21 year old, 2nd in points, MVP finalist No PK time Tons of powerplay minutes

vs.

Selke Winner, 3rd in points, +- winner, Who played less minutes on the powerplay, Had more points per minute once u factor out PK time... You have to realize Dats averaged 2-3 Min a game of PK time....



Im sorry but its not close. Malkin is young sure. But Dats is a better player today and probably for the near future.
As I posted, the fact that somebody can have a legitimate argument between who is better right now despite Malkin being so much younger is why this deal is not fair value.

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11-05-2008, 07:33 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odds View Post
Not true at all...infusion of young cheaper talent which is what the team lacked...
young cheap talent that would have been gone in a couple of seasons because we couldn't afford to pay him what the big spending teams would have offered up in the no cap world.

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Old
11-05-2008, 07:33 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
I will just end this never ending argument.

Malkin is a great player.

Datsyuk is a great player.

Datsyuk is more all around.

Malkin is 21.

Hooray for all stars!
I just wish,we could just close the topic all together!!!

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11-05-2008, 07:34 PM
  #166
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We should start another argument...

Zetterberg vs. Sidney Crosby

The two highest point per minute players in the league imo. I did calcs last year a few times its disgusting how good these two are.

The problem with all these arguments are they all play for different coachs, different situations and different minutes.

Average out goals per min of ES, PP, PK for each player then assume 15Min ES 2.5 PP 2.5 PK and you will see some interesting stats.

Once i did this i finally understood just how good Crosby is/was. Zetterbergs stats really pop in this scenario also.

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Old
11-05-2008, 07:35 PM
  #167
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Crosby>Zetterberg


Come on man don't be obtuse.

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Old
11-05-2008, 07:36 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
We should start another argument...

Zetterberg vs. Sidney Crosby

The two highest point per minute players in the league imo. I did calcs last year a few times its disgusting how good these two are.

The problem with all these arguments are they all play for different coachs, different situations and different minutes.

Average out goals per min of ES, PP, PK for each player then assume 15Min ES 2.5 PP 2.5 PK and you will see some interesting stats.

Once i did this i finally understood just how good Crosby is/was. Zetterbergs stats really pop in this scenario also.
No I think starting this argument is probably the last thing we should do lol.

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Old
11-05-2008, 07:36 PM
  #169
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I would love to have Dats on our team. I think he has developed into a world class talent. However i would not do this deal because i do not think this deal would make us any more of a cup contender than we already are.

From a Detroit point of view Dats plays your system perfectly. However Detroit does have other players who are great 2 way players who can provide offense and the chance to add an elite offensive weapon would make sense because Detroit has more then enough depth both at forward and on defense to make up for any potential defensive lapses that Malkin may make. I personally believe Dats is replaceable by Malkin simply because of guys like Zetterberg and Hossa are similar in that two-way forward mode. In addition Malkin would bring more offense so Detroit would become even scarier of a team.

From a Pittsburgh point of view i believe this trade makes us less of a contender. While we would add a better defensive presense we sorely lack secondary scoring right now and those extra 30 points or so that Malkin brings is a bigger need then adding defense to our second line. Our defense and pk has actually been pretty solid and Fleury is really playing well. I think a deal like this would work if we had more scoring wingers that could pick up the offense slack but since we do not then I don't see this deal working out.

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11-05-2008, 07:38 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
As I posted, the fact that somebody can have a legitimate argument between who is better right now despite Malkin being so much younger is why this deal is not fair value.
You are right. If it was Dats for Malkin straight up.

As we mentioned Kronwall isnt really a throw in. The guy is worth at least a 1st imo probably more. A defensemen that can be anywhere from num 1 to num 3 signed at 3M for term. Thats a pretty damn good throw in.

And i think thats roughly equal to the difference between Malkin Dats in VALUE.

In reality I could see some throwins on either side but the Max... would be Dats+kronwall+2nd for malkin. Thats the high end. Im not sure any rational person can say malkin is worth more then that.

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11-05-2008, 07:38 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
Crosby>Zetterberg


Come on man don't be obtuse.

I agree. I was just being coy.

Like i said when u balance out all the easy time Crosby shines even greater then he does now. That kid is the complete package. Malkin on the other hand benefits from the squishy minutes/ PP time (like thornton)

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11-05-2008, 07:41 PM
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
You are right. If it was Dats for Malkin straight up.

As we mentioned Kronwall isnt really a throw in. The guy is worth at least a 1st imo probably more. A defensemen that can be anywhere from num 1 to num 3 signed at 3M for term. Thats a pretty damn good throw in.

And i think thats roughly equal to the difference between Malkin Dats in VALUE.

In reality I could see some throwins on either side but the Max... would be Dats+kronwall+2nd for malkin. Thats the high end. Im not sure any rational person can say malkin is worth more then that.
Kronwall may seem like he makes up the difference to you now, but in 5 years when Datsyuk is 35 and Malkin is 27 no freakin way. Also adding in a 2nd means absolutely nothing when your talking about a player of this calibur, in ten years when Malkin is 32 and Datsyuk is 40 no freakin way, this is why the deal is not fair because Malkin has basically his entire career ahead of him. I don't see Datsyuk dropping off anytime soon but he has much less time around than Malkin. If they both play till they are 36 thats 6 more years of Datsyuk compared to 14 more years of Malkin, Kronwall does not make up for that.

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11-05-2008, 07:42 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
You are right. If it was Dats for Malkin straight up.

As we mentioned Kronwall isnt really a throw in. The guy is worth at least a 1st imo probably more. A defensemen that can be anywhere from num 1 to num 3 signed at 3M for term. Thats a pretty damn good throw in.

And i think thats roughly equal to the difference between Malkin Dats in VALUE.

In reality I could see some throwins on either side but the Max... would be Dats+kronwall+2nd for malkin. Thats the high end. Im not sure any rational person can say malkin is worth more then that.

I see what you did. Define any position other than your own, and specifically the person having that position, as not 'rational.' How clever.

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Old
11-05-2008, 07:43 PM
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morozov View Post
Kronwall may seem like he makes up the difference to you now, but in 5 years when Datsyuk is 35 and Malkin is 27 no freakin way. Also adding in a 2nd means absolutely nothing when your talking about a player of this calibur.
Well in 5 years i would not trade Datsyuk + kronwall for Malkin ....

That would be horrible value.

But for those 5 years Dats+kronwall > Malkin
Post 5 years Malkin>Dats+Kronwall

And that is why this is a trade. You trade a bit of future to win more now. The other team trades a bit of win now for the future.

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11-05-2008, 07:43 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by doctordark View Post
It can be a little overrated when discussing a player who is already adequate in his own end, just coming off a Hart runner-up year, and currently leading the league in scoring.

If professional hockey observers and Malkin and Datsyuk's peers thought that Datsyuk's defense more than made up for Malkin's offensive advantage, they would've made Pavel a finalist for the Hart and Pearson instead of Geno.

They didn't, and so he wasn't. But maybe you know more than people who are paid to comment on and play the game at its highest level, and feel comfortable in judging their relative talents based on a series in which one was noticeably unhealthy and off his game.
Malkin's offense advantage was what, 9 points? Datsyuk more than makes up for nine points with his defensive play and his ability to stay out of the penalty box, as Malkin had 78 minutes compared to Datsyuk's 20. There's also a huge difference between being "adequate" defensively and being the best in the league, which Dats is recognized as.

If you're going to argue that voting is the tell-tale result of a player's ability, are you going to be consistent? Will you admit that Ovechkin is so much better than Malkin that he nearly doubled his vote total (1,313 to 659) and do you agree that Maxime Talbot and Mike Ribeiro are better defensive players than Jordan Staal based on the Selke voting?

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