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Martin Brodeur

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Old
11-04-2008, 01:52 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
In the meantime he's been stuck behind great goalies like Lundqvist and Brodeur; I'm saying flat out he is nowhere near as good as these guys.... he still is young enough and has shown the talent in the past... he should be considered the "average number 1 goalie" in the NHL.
At the beginning of the 05/06 season he was the starter for the Rangers as well - it took Lundqvist a while to take over.

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11-04-2008, 01:53 PM
  #77
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See that's the thing. Until you see brodeur outside of that system you can't really judge how good he really is. He probably is better than osgood. Just using him as a comparable in that both goalies are a product of their teams, but only one gets the credit while the other is discredited. How much better he is than osgood, we'll never know until we see him outside of that system, which will never happen now.

I just feel that if you took any legit number 1 goalie over the years and put them in that system, they would post similar numbers as brodeur has put up. Devils fans will point to the backup's stats, which is why I said legit number 1 goalies, not career backups like chris terrari, scott clemenson or kevin weekes.

I've watched brodeur over the years and apart from his stick handling ability, I don't see anything that really impresses me with his play that would warrant the amount of adulation he receives. Best goalie of all time? Please...he couldn't even carry hasek's jockstrap.
The trap isnít even that effective anymore. The last two seasons, he has been dealing with the likes of Colin White, Johnny Oduya and Paul Martin as mainstays on his blueline crew. Those are very average names to say the least. Despite this, Brodeur has put up a .922 and a .920 save % and won the Vezina Trophy in each of the last two seasons. Trap or not, the system is only as effective as the play that utilize it. The best defensive system today is far and away puck possession. Sure, the trap worked great 10 years ago, but teams have the book on getting around the trap. Itís no great mystery anymore. People credit the trap as a main reason why Brodeur sees lower shots per game against averages than other goalies, while in reality the reduced shot totals have more to do with his puckhandling abilities, pokechecking, stickwork and rebound control. If anything, the Devils and their system benefit from Brodeur, not the other way around.

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11-04-2008, 01:55 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Bacchus View Post
At the beginning of the 05/06 season he was the starter for the Rangers as well - it took Lundqvist a while to take over.
Exactly....

Regardless i still see the Devils going for Khabby, Roloson, or Manny F....

No matter who they stick in that spot I'm still saying they won't be top 5 in the race for the Vezina.

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11-04-2008, 01:55 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
If NewJersey ends the season with a top 5 vezina contender I'll come back here and apologize and say you were right... if they don't will you do the same??
Lol you're pulling stats from weeks from like 5 years ago. He's not what I would consider a legit starting goalie in the year 2008. Nice try though. My stance has always been that you put an average starter there and they would put up respectable stats. You put a guy like giguerre or nabokov or someone of that ilk there and they would replicate brodeur's career stats.

Have you paid attention to the stats backstrom has put up in minny since coming into the league? How good do you consider backstrom or do you temper your opinion on him based on the system minny plays. Backstrom is on the old side now, but if he put up those kind of numbers over 10-15 years, would you consider him one of the greatest goalies ever?

As for the vezina contender notion, brodeur has always garnered the votes based on reputation that the system created for him, so no one would go in there now who could match the reputation the myth was built on.

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11-04-2008, 01:56 PM
  #80
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i guess at his age who would throw a ton at NJ for him. 3 years earlier for sure. Even for a top 5 goalie of all time age is everything

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11-04-2008, 02:01 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Lol you're pulling stats from weeks from like 5 years ago. He's not what I would consider a legit starting goalie in the year 2008. Nice try though. My stance has always been that you put an average starter there and they would put up respectable stats. You put a guy like giguerre or nabokov or someone of that ilk there and they would replicate brodeur's career stats.

Have you paid attention to the stats backstrom has put up in minny since coming into the league? How good do you consider backstrom or do you temper your opinion on him based on the system minny plays. Backstrom is on the old side now, but if he put up those kind of numbers over 10-15 years, would you consider him one of the greatest goalies ever?

As for the vezina contender notion, brodeur has always garnered the votes based on reputation that the system created for him, so no one would go in there now who could match the reputation the myth was built on.
Giguere and Nabakov are also top 10 goalies in this league... they are better than the average legit number 1 you were mentionning earlier. This is backtracking because you now fear that Weekes or Rolo/Khabby/Fernandez won't be able to replicate Brodeurs stats; and don't want to admit that you were wrong when they don't. You know full well that Giguere and Nabakov are not available.

I don't think Backstrom would put up those kind of numbers for 10-15 years; very few goalies are able to be consistent for that length of time, thats part of what makes Brodeur great... but I do think he is a top 10 goalie right now. Again, i don't see him as available.

As for the reputation, i even gave you some leeway for that... I said that the new starter in New Jersey merely had to be top 5 for contention to the trophy, not win it... heck i'll even go Top 10 to make it better for you. You think Brodeur won the trophy on reputation alone... are you seriously gonna tell me his numbers weren't good enough to be even a top 5 contender for the trophy without that reputation??

As has been pointed out... yes those stats were 5 years old... but the Rangers considered Weekes good enough to be a stop gap number 1 goalie in 2005, just 3 years ago until Lundqvist or Montoya (at that time i highly touted rangers prospect) was ready. Lundqvist became ready for the number 1 goalie sooner than anyone thought possible. If he wasn't as great as he was, they were comfortable going with Weekes as a number 1.

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11-04-2008, 02:13 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
You think Brodeur won the trophy on reputation alone... are you seriously gonna tell me his numbers weren't good enough to be even a top 5 contender for the trophy??
Yes I believe he's won those vezinas based off reputation alone and gms just vote blindly for him. The numbers are good because of the system. Why is it that he put up similar numbers throughout his career but could never beat out hasek for a vezina until hasek was on the decline?

Off the top of my head I can name 3 vezinas that brodeur has outright stolen from other goalies. The 4th, I don't remember right now and don't feel like looking up. The year he beat out luongo in florida, luongo's first year in vancouver and nabokov last year were all undeserved vezinas.

It sucks that brodeur got injured cause I don't wish injury on the guy and would rather see his game decline and his stats rise with age instead. However, it does mean this season there will be a worthy vezina winner at least.

I think goalies can easily be a product of their team. Carey price is heralded as a god by habs fans now and while he is probably decent his numbers are inflated playing on that habs team. Look no further than huet who put up great stats in montreal and made all star teams. However, as usual habs fans tired of him and ran him out of town like theodore as soon as a new golden boy came along.

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11-04-2008, 02:20 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Yes I believe he's won those vezinas based off reputation alone and gms just vote blindly for him. The numbers are good because of the system. Why is it that he put up similar numbers throughout his career but could never beat out hasek for a vezina until hasek was on the decline?
then why did he finish top 3 in voting early in his career? whether you admit it or not, you are bitter because luongo doesnt have the hardware brodeur has

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11-04-2008, 02:23 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Yes I believe he's won those vezinas based off reputation alone and gms just vote blindly for him. The numbers are good because of the system. Why is it that he put up similar numbers throughout his career but could never beat out hasek for a vezina until hasek was on the decline?

Off the top of my head I can name 3 vezinas that brodeur has outright stolen from other goalies. The 4th, I don't remember right now and don't feel like looking up. The year he beat out luongo in florida, luongo's first year in vancouver and nabokov last year were all undeserved vezinas.

It sucks that brodeur got injured cause I don't wish injury on the guy and would rather see his game decline and his stats rise with age instead. However, it does mean this season there will be a worthy vezina winner at least.

I think goalies can easily be a product of their team. Carey price is heralded as a god by habs fans now and while he is probably decent his numbers are inflated playing on that habs team. Look no further than huet who put up great stats in montreal and made all star teams. However, as usual habs fans tired of him and ran him out of town like theodore as soon as a new golden boy came along.
You avoided the question...

Flat out...

If Brodeur doesn't have a reputation... and still had the exact same season he had last year behind NewJersey's defence would he be top 5 or Vezian voting... not number 1.. but top 5??

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11-04-2008, 02:25 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
then why did he finish top 3 in voting early in his career? whether you admit it or not, you are bitter because luongo doesnt have the hardware brodeur has
This is where people are blind and just assume things. Why would I care about luongo when I've felt this way about brodeur long before luongo was ever a canucks. Keep grasping at straws though.

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11-04-2008, 02:27 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
You avoided the question...

Flat out...

If Brodeur doesn't have a reputation... and still had the exact same season he had last year behind NewJersey's defence would he be top 5 or Vezian voting... not number 1.. but top 5??
Yes, he would be top 5 based on the numbers. Like I said he's WON the vezinas based on reputations. The system gets him the numbers and then the tie goes to brodeur based on his reputation. Nabokov should have won last year, but he doesn't have the reputation brodeur has.

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11-04-2008, 02:28 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Yes I believe he's won those vezinas based off reputation alone and gms just vote blindly for him. The numbers are good because of the system. Why is it that he put up similar numbers throughout his career but could never beat out hasek for a vezina until hasek was on the decline?

Off the top of my head I can name 3 vezinas that brodeur has outright stolen from other goalies. The 4th, I don't remember right now and don't feel like looking up. The year he beat out luongo in florida, luongo's first year in vancouver and nabokov last year were all undeserved vezinas.

It sucks that brodeur got injured cause I don't wish injury on the guy and would rather see his game decline and his stats rise with age instead. However, it does mean this season there will be a worthy vezina winner at least.

I think goalies can easily be a product of their team. Carey price is heralded as a god by habs fans now and while he is probably decent his numbers are inflated playing on that habs team. Look no further than huet who put up great stats in montreal and made all star teams. However, as usual habs fans tired of him and ran him out of town like theodore as soon as a new golden boy came along.
Brodeur robbed Nabokov of the Vezina last season? Hold on a second. Wasnít Nabokov the beneficiary of the exact same system last season of which you have been criticizing Brodeur of hiding behind all these years? Yet you think that Nabokov deserved the Vezina? Brodeur faced 300 more shots against than Nabokov in the same amount of games played (77), had virtually the same GAA (2.14 for Nabokov to 2.17 for Brodeur) and much better save% (.920% for Brodeur to .910% for Nabokov) despite being on a much weaker team, both defensively and all around. Which one is it? If Nabokov deserved the Vezina last season, then your arguments against Brodeurís career are moot. If you backtrack and decide that Brodeur was indeed worthy of the Vezina last season, then you are essentially admitting that Brodeur is no longer the beneficiary of a great defensive system. Either way, you just screwed your argument.

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11-04-2008, 02:29 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by AfroThunder396 View Post
Bluechip defensive prospect
Average/above average goalie prospect
Top 6 forward
i would say thats about right. maybe add in a draft pick.

McDonagh, Halak, and Chipchura? maybe?

EDIT: i forgot to add in the obligatory HF 2nd round pick.

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11-04-2008, 02:29 PM
  #89
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I mean, I know that he will not get dealed, but the Turco thread made me curious what would it take to get him out of NJ. Also take in consideration, that he's a great contract.

My guss would be somebody like Thornton, but I have acutally no idea, since he's no 20 any more(Brodeur)...
hes untouchable but if he or the devils had to part ways there would have to be a really really good young goalie(Price, or Pavelec) + a top 6 forward(or 1st and 2nd round pick if the devils ever went into a rebuild) + top 4 Defencemen to make up for the goaltending skill difference

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11-04-2008, 02:29 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rover View Post
This is where people are blind and just assume things. Why would I care about luongo when I've felt this way about brodeur long before luongo was ever a canucks. Keep grasping at straws though.
why so bitter? Panties in a bunch or something?

we always hear players say the last goalie they'd want to face is Brodeur. Is that because of the system also.

You are arguing in the wrong place and thread.

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11-04-2008, 02:30 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Nabokov should have won last year, but he doesn't have the reputation brodeur has.
It had nothing to do with the fact that Nabokov's save percentage was league average last year. It was all because of Brodeur's reputation.

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11-04-2008, 02:31 PM
  #92
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Brodeur robbed Nabokov of the Vezina last season? Hold on a second.
Yes, he robbed nabokov last year and no I don't buy the fact he was helped by some system in san jose. Nabokov was deserving of the vezina last year based on his own merit. To state otherwise is just to try to discredit him to prop up brodeur.

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11-04-2008, 02:34 PM
  #93
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It had nothing to do with the fact that Nabokov's save percentage was league average last year. It was all because of Brodeur's reputation.
Lol it's you again, but I already made you look foolish in the last goalie thread about nabokov when you went on about his .910 sv%. I pointed out the fact that brodeur put up .910 sv% or close to it numerous times in his career and you had nothing to say about that and avoided it.

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11-04-2008, 02:40 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Yes, he would be top 5 based on the numbers. Like I said he's WON the vezinas based on reputations. The system gets him the numbers and then the tie goes to brodeur based on his reputation. Nabokov should have won last year, but he doesn't have the reputation brodeur has.
Okay... so now onto question number 2

You say that any average number 1 goalie would put up similar numbers to brodeur behind that system.

So if Weekes or one of Roloson/Fernandez/Khabby does not become a top 5 vezina finalist this year in replacing brodeur will you admit that you were wrong?? Cause if they do I will admit that you are right.

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Lol it's you again, but I already made you look foolish in the last goalie thread about nabokov when you went on about his .910 sv%. I pointed out the fact that brodeur put up .910 sv% or close to it numerous times in his career and you had nothing to say about that and avoided it.
How many seasons did brodeur WIN the Vezina with a 910 save% and if he did what was the average save % in the league that season.

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11-04-2008, 02:41 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
This is where people are blind and just assume things. Why would I care about luongo when I've felt this way about brodeur long before luongo was ever a canucks. Keep grasping at straws though.
great so how about the first part?

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11-04-2008, 02:42 PM
  #96
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You can't even put a price on his head...his reputation alone is invaluable. Plus, name another 36 year old goalie who could probably play 802 games if they let him, while maintaining some of the best stats in the league and breaking basically every goaltending record in the books. For the amount of goaltenders out there...no team would give up what New Jersey would ask for Brodeur.

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11-04-2008, 02:44 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Lol it's you again, but I already made you look foolish in the last goalie thread about nabokov when you went on about his .910 sv%. I pointed out the fact that brodeur put up .910 sv% or close to it numerous times in his career and you had nothing to say about that and avoided it.
Probably because Brodeur never won the Vezina in any of the seasons he had a .910 SV%....

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11-04-2008, 02:45 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Lol it's you again, but I already made you look foolish in the last goalie thread about nabokov when you went on about his .910 sv%. I pointed out the fact that brodeur put up .910 sv% or close to it numerous times in his career and you had nothing to say about that and avoided it.
So you made me look foolish in that thread by changing the subject? Got it.

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11-04-2008, 02:45 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post

How many seasons did brodeur WIN the Vezina with a 910 save% and if he did what was the average save % in the league that season.
dont expect him to respond to that

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11-04-2008, 02:46 PM
  #100
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Yes, he robbed nabokov last year and no I don't buy the fact he was helped by some system in san jose. Nabokov was deserving of the vezina last year based on his own merit. To state otherwise is just to try to discredit him to prop up brodeur.
How can you not buy the fact that he was helped by a system in San Jose? How else could you account for his incredible goals against average, but a decidedly medicore save percentage? How can you differentiate between Nabokov deserving the Vezina on a strong defensive team based on his own merit versus Brodeur doing the same in years past? What you are doing right now is discrediting Brodeur for his past success, and then praising another goaltender for having similar success under very similar circumstances a few years later. There is no justification behind your claims.

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