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Martin Brodeur

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Old
11-04-2008, 02:48 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Okay... so now onto question number 2

You say that any average number 1 goalie would put up similar numbers to brodeur behind that system.

So if Weekes or one of Roloson/Fernandez/Khabby does not become a top 5 vezina finalist this year in replacing brodeur will you admit that you were wrong?? Cause if they do I will admit that you are right.



How many seasons did brodeur WIN the Vezina with a 910 save% and if he did what was the average save % in the league that season.
1. I never said average starting goalie, you put those words in my mouth. I said legit number 1 goalie and you took that to mean average. Next you'll try to say jason labarbara would do the same since he's been a starter in the league now. Some goalies are starters by circumstance cause there are no better options available, doesn't mean I consider them legit starting goalies.

2. There was someone in the league by the name of hasek if you didn't notice at the time. No gm would be foolish enough to vote against the greatest goalie to ever play at the height of his dominance.

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11-04-2008, 02:51 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Incognito View Post
What you are doing right now is discrediting Brodeur for his past success, and then praising another goaltender for having similar success under very similar circumstances a few years later. There is no justification behind your claims.
No I'm not. You'll notice that I don't give backstrom as much credit as his numbers say he should deserve cause his team plays the most similar to new jersey. Backstrom right now is the closest comparable to situation brodeur has been in his whole career. Like I asked someone else. Do you consider backstrom elite? If he was younger and put up these numbers for 10-15 years would you consider him an all time great?

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11-04-2008, 02:55 PM
  #103
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I don't think the debate of who has the better stats or who deserves what really alters the fact that NJ wouldnt trade Brodeur...no other team would even metion him in discussions.

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11-04-2008, 02:56 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
1. I never said average starting goalie, you put those words in my mouth. I said legit number 1 goalie and you took that to mean average. Next you'll try to say jason labarbara would do the same since he's been a starter in the league now. Some goalies are starters by circumstance cause there are no better options available, doesn't mean I consider them legit starting goalies.

2. There was someone in the league by the name of hasek if you didn't notice at the time. No gm would be foolish enough to vote against the greatest goalie to ever play at the height of his dominance.
1) we aren't talking about LaBarbara... we aren't talkng about the worst starter in the league... I said Roloson, Khabby, or Fernandez... these three aren't legit number 1 goalies. Not every team in the league can have a top 10 goalie... there are thirty teams in the league, there must be more than 10 legit number 1s.

2) Okay let me get this straight Brodeur didn't win the vezina with a 910 save percentage because there was another goalie who was better than him.... But Nabakov deserves the vezina with a 910 (league average) save percentage even though there is a goalie with similar GAA, Wins, and Shutouts but a much better save %. Yeah makes sense

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11-04-2008, 02:59 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
1) But Nabakov deserves the vezina with a 910 (league average) save percentage even though there is a goalie with similar GAA, Wins, and Shutouts but a much better save %. Yeah makes sense
Yes, because brodeur's numbers are inflated, while nabokov's were not impacted to the same extent due to san jose.

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11-04-2008, 03:06 PM
  #106
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Brodeur is massively overrated.

He's like the Joe Sakic of Goalies

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11-04-2008, 03:09 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Yes, because brodeur's numbers are inflated, while nabokov's were not impacted to the same extent due to san jose.
Inflated by a mediocre Devils line-up compared to a team that fired their coach because they didn't make the stanley cup finals?

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11-04-2008, 03:10 PM
  #108
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Yes, because brodeur's numbers are inflated, while nabokov's were not impacted to the same extent due to san jose.
And Buffalo under Lindy Ruff wasn't playing a defensive system with Hasek behind them...

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11-04-2008, 03:13 PM
  #109
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Lol it's you again, but I already made you look foolish in the last goalie thread about nabokov when you went on about his .910 sv%. I pointed out the fact that brodeur put up .910 sv% or close to it numerous times in his career and you had nothing to say about that and avoided it.
Just like you're avoiding the fact that Nabokov has been playing behind the Trap until they fired Ron Wilson

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Old
11-04-2008, 03:14 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
And Buffalo under Lindy Ruff wasn't playing a defensive system with Hasek behind them...
No, hasek was flat out dominant when playing and stole numerous games for the sabres. He's the only reason buffalo made it to the finals or playoffs each year for that matter. I can't say the same for brodeur.

Anyways, there's no sense in debating this back and forth cause some people believe in the myth that is brodeur ,while I do not, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

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11-04-2008, 03:15 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by My Sweet Shadow View Post
Inflated by a mediocre Devils line-up compared to a team that fired their coach because they didn't make the stanley cup finals?
Think you should just ignore him. Based on his arguments, he's pretty much an idiot. The #1 defenseman on the devils right now, Paul Martin, was rated somewhere in the 50s in the entire league. None of the other defensemen on the devils made the top 100 list. If you call that a "good defensive system" then you need to get your head checked.

Nabokov has a much better defense in front of him and a very good defensive system for their team. He's a great goalie, don't get me wrong, but he had a performance like Marty's when Hasek beat Marty one year to a Vezina even though Marty had more wins.

Marty's real strength is playing that puck. He is better than anyone at it. If Marty was a defenseman, he would be better than Lidstrom.

Marty WAS the only reason why the Devils made the playoffs last season. The team couldn't score, and had a bunch of really bad defensemen.

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11-04-2008, 03:19 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
No, hasek was flat out dominant when playing and stole numerous games for the sabres. He's the only reason buffalo made it to the finals or playoffs each year for that matter. I can't say the same for brodeur.

Anyways, there's no sense in debating this back and forth cause some people believe in the myth that is brodeur ,while I do not, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.
You still didn't answer the second question.... lets even take weekes out of the equation.

If Khabby, Roloson, or Fernandez are traded to NJ and don't put up numbers that would place them in top 5 vezina contention... will you get off the brodeur is a system goalie aided by the devils system point...

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11-04-2008, 03:20 PM
  #113
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Yes, because brodeur's numbers are inflated, while nabokov's were not impacted to the same extent due to san jose.
Prove it. Make sure to address Alan Ryder's paper (http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...NHL_Review.pdf), where his analysis shows San Jose's 2007-08 shot quality to be sixth-easiest in the league (and easier than New Jersey's).

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11-04-2008, 03:20 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by MoonDragn View Post
Think you should just ignore him. Based on his arguments, he's pretty much an idiot. The #1 defenseman on the devils right now, Paul Martin, was rated somewhere in the 50s in the entire league. None of the other defensemen on the devils made the top 100 list. If you call that a "good defensive system" then you need to get your head checked.
This is a case when people become too attached to the name on the back of the jersey. Just cause their dmen don't have the flashy names that people would expect, doesn't mean they aren't any good. Also, the system goes beyond the dmen and works when everyone buys in and you have defensively responsible forwards as well.

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11-04-2008, 03:26 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Prove it. Make sure to address Alan Ryder's paper (http://www.hockeyanalytics.com/Resea...NHL_Review.pdf), where his analysis shows San Jose's 2007-08 shot quality to be sixth-easiest in the league (and easier than New Jersey's).
Come on that is way too long to read and you know any stats report can be skewed by the weights given to subjective things like shot quality. However, I skimmed the vezina section and his report says vokoun should have won the vezina, thereby supporting my argument that brodeur won an undeserved vezina. He just picked a different goalie than I did.

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11-04-2008, 03:28 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Come on that is way too long to read and you know any stats report can be skewed by the weights given to subjective things like shot quality. However, I skimmed the vezina section and his report says vokoun should have won the vezina, thereby supporting my argument that brodeur won an undeserved vezina. He just picked a different goalie than I did.
Who was the last goalie to miss the playoffs and win the Vezina... I don't think Vokoun should even have been in the discussion... and thats not his fault.. thats his team's.

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11-04-2008, 03:29 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
This is a case when people become too attached to the name on the back of the jersey. Just cause their dmen don't have the flashy names that people would expect, doesn't mean they aren't any good. Also, the system goes beyond the dmen and works when everyone buys in and you have defensively responsible forwards as well.
Except that since Sutter has been coach, the devils have largely abandoned the system except when they have a lead, and even then, its nothing like the old trap system. Right now they are largely playing a puck possession system.

The reason the stats always show Brodeur with less shots against him is because he clears half of the pucks that gets shot in the zone.

When you have a Goalie that can do that, you have great defense. I've seen him maneuver pucks around people like Crosby, Lemieux, and Gretzky. When a goalie can do that, he's one of the greats.

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11-04-2008, 03:30 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Come on that is way too long to read and you know any stats report can be skewed by the weights given to subjective things like shot quality. However, I skimmed the vezina section and his report says vokoun should have won the vezina, thereby supporting my argument that brodeur won an undeserved vezina. He just picked a different goalie than I did.
Ah - the article's too long to read, and all stats are biased anyhow.

Let me know when you decide to educate yourself. There's no point discussing things in an adult fashion with someone who chooses to act the way you choose to act.

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11-04-2008, 03:30 PM
  #119
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Given the current situation, the Rangers offer Henrik Lundqvist's jock, with a conditional 7th round pick if the Devils eat the remainder of Brodeur's contract.

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11-04-2008, 03:32 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
Come on that is way too long to read and you know any stats report can be skewed by the weights given to subjective things like shot quality. However, I skimmed the vezina section and his report says vokoun should have won the vezina, thereby supporting my argument that brodeur won an undeserved vezina. He just picked a different goalie than I did.
I think thats basically your problem. You don't read. You probably skim over comments by other people saying Brodeur sucks and you believe them.

Try reading some of the more detailed analysis and actually watch some of the old games where Brodeur plays.

Pay close attention to Brodeur's playing style over the years. He's adapted moves from the greats like Roy, Sawchuck, Hextall, and Hasek. He's great because he learns from watching others and pays attention to details and works hard at winning.

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11-04-2008, 03:35 PM
  #121
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I always imagined Brodeur like Charizard.

Not a holograph Charizard, but a Charizard nonetheless.

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11-04-2008, 03:36 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by NOTENOUGHBREWER View Post
Brodeur is massively overrated.

He's like the Joe Sakic of Goalies
Wow, and I thought I have been known for idiotic statements, but you just took the cake.

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11-04-2008, 03:41 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Doctor No View Post
Ah - the article's too long to read, and all stats are biased anyhow.

Let me know when you decide to educate yourself. There's no point discussing things in an adult fashion with someone who chooses to act the way you choose to act.
No you need to educate yourself cause I already pointed out the fact that your supposed bible of reports says vokoun should have won the vezina. Why aren't you touting vokoun should have won vezina last year? The fact is your report says I'm right and the brodeur won an undeserved vezina. I don't see your counterpoint about that.

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11-04-2008, 03:43 PM
  #124
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The fact is that most of you just automatically buy into the myth about brodeur without watching him play yourself. Apart from stick handling, there is nothing impressive about his game or anything that suggests he's lived up to the myth that system has created for him. I prefer to believe my own two eyes. (cue the jokes about my eyesight now. )

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11-04-2008, 03:46 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Rover View Post
No you need to educate yourself cause I already pointed out the fact that your supposed bible of reports says vokoun should have won the vezina. Why aren't you touting vokoun should have won vezina last year? The fact is your report says I'm right and the brodeur won an undeserved vezina. I don't see your counterpoint about that.
I've already said that I thought that Vokoun was the best goaltender last year (and I said it before Ryder released his analytics, too):

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=507945

So I'm not sure what you're getting at, because my position has been consistent all along.

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