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Old
11-04-2008, 04:08 PM
  #1
Laus723
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Fl-phi

To Philly:
Bouwmeester
Horton

To FLA:
Carter
Lupul
Parent

Carter's more than likely not going anywhere since he just re-signed for a few more years, but Horton's signed long term as well.

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11-04-2008, 04:18 PM
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Pukboy5kroner
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I have to agree with you; I don't think Carter is going anywhere with the start he's had this season.

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Old
11-04-2008, 04:21 PM
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Laus723
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I'm just wondering in terms of value, is it fair.

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11-04-2008, 04:25 PM
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LEIFey
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my spine tingles when i see carter, lupul and parent going in a trade, but that's because i'm a homer. maybe take off parent and the value would be closer, though i'm not sure on horton's value.

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Old
11-04-2008, 04:27 PM
  #5
AC Le Rock
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
I'm just wondering in terms of value, is it fair.
No I don't think so. Bows and Horton have zero playoff experience. Bows is not doing very well this season as far as points are concerned. I think this is a massive overpayment for the Flyers and just not worth it. Lupul and Carter are top six, even top 3 forwards depending on which team you look at. And Parent is currently a top 4 with top 2 potential. Wait till the deadline when FLA is desperate to trade Bows or even FA to sign him, no point in trading all that talent. Lopsided.

How about Briere for Bows (though Briere wouldn't waive the NMC, that's for sure)

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Old
11-04-2008, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AC Le Rock View Post
No I don't think so. Bows and Horton have zero playoff experience. Bows is not doing very well this season as far as points are concerned. I think this is a massive overpayment for the Flyers and just not worth it. Lupul and Carter are top six, even top 3 forwards depending on which team you look at. And Parent is currently a top 4 with top 2 potential. Wait till the deadline when FLA is desperate to trade Bows or even FA to sign him, no point in trading all that talent. Lopsided.

How about Briere for Bows (though Briere wouldn't waive the NMC, that's for sure)
maybe i'm just letting my briere hate flow through, but i think bouw is worth more than danny. i'd do this deal in a second though

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11-04-2008, 04:38 PM
  #7
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The first question would be: Are we talking about a signed Bouwmeester and if so, at what salary? If he's not signed then that kills the deal right away. If he is, then it gets interesting.

Carter is playing at such a high level on both ends of the ice right now that it would be hard for me to deal him. That said, Bouwmeester would solve a big need for the organization going forward and give them another player to build the defense around with Timonen, Coburn, and Sbisa looking like mainstays for the next 3-5 years at least.

I would probably lean towards saying no, but the value isn't terrible. Horton's production has plateau'd over the past couple of years which scares me in comparison to Carter, who appears to be taking the jump to the next step and is on his way to being one of the elite goal scorers in the league. Bouwmeester's play has also plateau'd a bit and he too has been unable to take the next step, though the step he needs to take is from being a top 15 defenseman to a top 5 guy, which isn't easy.

If it were a different asset then Parent, say Downie, I might pull the trigger on the deal. The value is that close so the proposal is solid.

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Old
11-04-2008, 04:44 PM
  #8
Haute Couturier
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I think it is pretty fair and I'm someone who normally wouldn't want to trade Carter.

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Old
11-04-2008, 04:47 PM
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Laus723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gags1288 View Post
The first question would be: Are we talking about a signed Bouwmeester and if so, at what salary? If he's not signed then that kills the deal right away. If he is, then it gets interesting.

Carter is playing at such a high level on both ends of the ice right now that it would be hard for me to deal him. That said, Bouwmeester would solve a big need for the organization going forward and give them another player to build the defense around with Timonen, Coburn, and Sbisa looking like mainstays for the next 3-5 years at least.

I would probably lean towards saying no, but the value isn't terrible. Horton's production has plateau'd over the past couple of years which scares me in comparison to Carter, who appears to be taking the jump to the next step and is on his way to being one of the elite goal scorers in the league. Bouwmeester's play has also plateau'd a bit and he too has been unable to take the next step, though the step he needs to take is from being a top 15 defenseman to a top 5 guy, which isn't easy.

If it were a different asset then Parent, say Downie, I might pull the trigger on the deal. The value is that close so the proposal is solid.
Thanks. I think Martin would try to get a defenseman (prospect or roster player) back if possible, though, Ellerby played well in the pre-season.

I think Horton would do a lot better under a new system and out of florida. I say this, because with the revolving door at GM and coach while he's been here, there really hasn't been the type of accountability in a place where these positions have been a bit more stable. I think he can be a solid force in the future, and if he stays here through his contract, will hopefully have that brought out by Deboer.

I'm not sure why Bouwmeester hasn't put up the numbers that were expected of him when he was drafted. Drives a close friend of mine up the wall, but he's become great as a defensive defenseman.

*I doubt Bouw would be signed, he's unable to be talked to until January.

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Old
11-04-2008, 05:11 PM
  #10
BillyShoe1721
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Switch Parent to maybe Ratchuk or Marshall and I would say the value is equal, not saying I would do it but the value's equal. I'm a huge fan of both Florida players. Both of their potential is right there and I think being on a successful team would take both of them to the next level. Our defense would be phenomenal now, and Horton would certainly cushion the blow of losing Lupul, but I'm afraid to lose Carter. With the level that he's playing at right now, it would take a mass overpayment for me to get rid of him, especially with Briere on the shelf for a few more weeks. Once Briere is back and healthy, then we might be able to talk. Of course, this is all depending on Jay being signed to a long-term extension, and if he isn't there's no way that this works.

Going forward...

Gagne-Briere-Giroux
vanRiemsdyk-Richards-Horton
Maroon-Downie-Nodl
Cote-Matsumoto/Cabana-Scrub

Timonen-Coburn
Bouwmeester-Sbisa
Parent-Marshall/Ratchuk/Bodrov/Bourdon

Biron if he can get his act together, and if not we'll draft a goalie or trade for a young one. If we could sure up that goaltending situation, that's a Cup team.

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Old
11-04-2008, 05:20 PM
  #11
ELab2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
Switch Parent to maybe Ratchuk or Marshall and I would say the value is equal, not saying I would do it but the value's equal..
Yeah I'd agree there. Carter and Lupul for Bouw and Horton sways in the favor of the Flyers but I think Parent would push it past the mid point toward the Panthers favor. A guy like Marshal and maybe a late pick would be more balanced.

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Old
11-04-2008, 06:21 PM
  #12
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See, told you.

Most people are leaning towards saying no

Jays UFA status is a killer, Norton for Lupul is ok I guess but asking for Parent as well as Carter is very unreasonable imo

Other then that if we ignore playoffs experience, ufa status, current production and other factors seems like a good deal in term of value.

If Homer decides to go after Jay, I hope this deal won’t be around Gagne, Carter, Richards, Coburn and JVR as well as Sbisa.

Flyers have other players and prospects Florida could use and imo Flyers should not pay full value because no team does.

This is with out knowing how this team play with out Carter. We take so many penalties that Richards will do most of PK and probably end up getting hurt.

I am not so sure if Briere can carry all o-sive load on his shoulders.

tnx Luas.


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Old
11-04-2008, 07:24 PM
  #13
BringBackStevens
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If Jay has agreed to a contract extension, then you might be close.

Remove Carter and Horton, and add a prospect or pick coming from Philadelphia.

Joffrey Lupul, Ryan Parent, and a first round pick going to Florida for Bouwmeester straight up

It would probably be beneficial for the Flyers if Randy Jones' contract could be included

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Old
11-04-2008, 10:34 PM
  #14
BrindamoursNose
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Lupul, Jones and a 1st probably get J-Bo.

Why does everyone throw Carter into their trades? The kid isn't going annnnnnywhere.

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Old
11-04-2008, 10:51 PM
  #15
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first off, carter gets tossed into just about every flyers need a d-man proposal because the indication last year was that he was a movable commodity. he is the second most important forward on this team, third most important player. he will not be moved... at all...

i think that lupul, jones and a 1st pick is good payment for a UFA to be. its a package that i think that the panthers would have to look at during deadline talks. i agree with the sentiment that the flyers--sans any other team--shouldn't consider making a move for jay-bo until the deadline when the panthers feel the pressure to get something for bouwmeester.

also, looking at d-pairings for the flyers if jay-bo comes to philly. he instantly becomes the #2 d-man on the team, playing with timmonen. in no way is braydon coburn anywhere the d-man that bouwmeester is right now--bouw gets first pairing duties and works the second pairing with coburn. we get something that looks like this, barring injuries

kimmo-bouw
coby-sbisa
jones-parent

vananen, eminger, alberts

as an aside to this argument, when the flyers defense gets healthy, they get tissue paper soft

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Old
11-04-2008, 10:56 PM
  #16
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Originally Posted by 27roenick97 View Post
also, looking at d-pairings for the flyers if jay-bo comes to philly. he instantly becomes the #2 d-man on the team, playing with timmonen. in no way is braydon coburn anywhere the d-man that bouwmeester is right now--bouw gets first pairing duties and works the second pairing with coburn. we get something that looks like this, barring injuries

kimmo-bouw
coby-sbisa
jones-parent

vananen, eminger, alberts

as an aside to this argument, when the flyers defense gets healthy, they get tissue paper soft
Alberts should be waived if we acquired J-Bo, and Vaananen has earned his spot on this team. I'd return Parent to the Phantoms once he is healthy.

Timonen-Bouwmeester
Coburn-Jones
Vaananen-Sbisa
Eminger

is an excellent corps.

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Old
11-04-2008, 11:35 PM
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Alberts should be waived if we acquired J-Bo, and Vaananen has earned his spot on this team. I'd return Parent to the Phantoms once he is healthy.

Timonen-Bouwmeester
Coburn-Jones
Vaananen-Sbisa
Eminger

is an excellent corps.
it is a most excellent corps...

honestly, i feel a top six of timmo, coby, jones, parent, vaananen, and sbisa is a well above average corps (read: cup challenging).

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Old
11-05-2008, 12:36 AM
  #18
BrindamoursNose
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Yeah the Flyers won't have near an excellent corps for the NOW. In 2 years if they're all together, it'll be a dominant corps...But that's in 2 years. They look great on paper because most are young, and already good as is, but I look at those names and see potential as opposed to current ability....

Sorry

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11-05-2008, 01:59 PM
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Yeah the Flyers won't have near an excellent corps for the NOW. In 2 years if they're all together, it'll be a dominant corps...But that's in 2 years. They look great on paper because most are young, and already good as is, but I look at those names and see potential as opposed to current ability....

Sorry
I'm gonna have to agree with you there.

If we could some how get rid of Briere and land JBo and resign some cronies, I'm talking cup all the way.

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Old
11-05-2008, 07:23 PM
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Lupul Parent Jones and a 1st for J bo pending a resign

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Old
11-05-2008, 09:09 PM
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BrindamoursNose
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Lupul Parent Jones and a 1st for J bo pending a resign
That's way too much I think. Take out Parent and it's fair.

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Old
11-06-2008, 07:21 AM
  #22
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As a Panther fan, I have no problem trading J-Bo--the sooner the better. But, it makes no sense to take back overpaid players on long-term contracts. The Panthers are looking for young NHLers, picks and prospects. I would trade J-Bo for JVR, Parent/Nodl and a 1st in 2009. But, I recognize that would not work under the cap so it is not going to happen.

BTW the salary cap for next season is going at best to be flat due to the rise of the dollar and the recession. Teams like the Flyers may come to regret the big long term contracts that they handed out to so many players. I suspect that the contracts given to Briere, Hatnel, Lupul, Jones etc may come home to roost. Where is the money going to come from to resign Coburn and acquire a No. 1 goalie?

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11-06-2008, 07:50 AM
  #23
LEIFey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SufferingCatFan View Post
As a Panther fan, I have no problem trading J-Bo--the sooner the better. But, it makes no sense to take back overpaid players on long-term contracts. The Panthers are looking for young NHLers, picks and prospects. I would trade J-Bo for JVR, Parent/Nodl and a 1st in 2009. But, I recognize that would not work under the cap so it is not going to happen.

BTW the salary cap for next season is going at best to be flat due to the rise of the dollar and the recession. Teams like the Flyers may come to regret the big long term contracts that they handed out to so many players. I suspect that the contracts given to Briere, Hatnel, Lupul, Jones etc may come home to roost. Where is the money going to come from to resign Coburn and acquire a No. 1 goalie?
i'm still scratching my head with the Jones deal, but lupul's deal is pretty fair and hartnell seems to be improving so i'm optimistic about him. briere's deal is what any team competing for him would have paid, so not much could be done about that, especially since he's still producing.

we have a no.1 goalie. biron

how many teams are trading no.1 goalies anyways?

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11-06-2008, 08:58 AM
  #24
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i'm still scratching my head with the Jones deal, but lupul's deal is pretty fair and hartnell seems to be improving so i'm optimistic about him. briere's deal is what any team competing for him would have paid, so not much could be done about that, especially since he's still producing.

we have a no.1 goalie. biron

how many teams are trading no.1 goalies anyways?
Let us look at the big picture.The Flyers already had too many players signed to large, long term contracts at the end of last season-Briere, Richards, Gagne, Hartnel, and Timmo. They knew that Biron's contract expired at the end of 2008 as well as Coburn's and that the team would need big dollars collectively to resign Coburn and Biron, or a No. 1 UFA goalie.

The Flyers apparently decided to roll the dice that the salary cap would continue to grow by $6 million per year indefinitely, when the team handed out long term contracts to Carter, Lupul and Jones absorbing another almost $12 million in cap space. With 20-20 hindsight, the Flyers are now in a world of hurt from a cap perspective, since the cap is likely to be flat or decrease slightly due to the recession and the rise of the dollar against the Loonie.

I would argue that (1) Jones is overpaid by any measure; and (2) that Carter and Lupul's contract are too rich for the Flyers, but not out of line with their market value.

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11-06-2008, 09:49 AM
  #25
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[QUOTE=SufferingCatFan;16188459]Let us look at the big picture.The Flyers already had too many players signed to large, long term contracts at the end of last season-Briere, Richards, Gagne, Hartnel, and Timmo. They knew that Biron's contract expired at the end of 2008 as well as Coburn's and that the team would need big dollars collectively to resign Coburn and Biron, or a No. 1 UFA goalie.

The Flyers apparently decided to roll the dice that the salary cap would continue to grow by $6 million per year indefinitely, when the team handed out long term contracts to Carter, Lupul and Jones absorbing another almost $12 million in cap space. With 20-20 hindsight, the Flyers are now in a world of hurt from a cap perspective, since the cap is likely to be flat or decrease slightly due to the recession and the rise of the dollar against the Loonie.

I would argue that (1) Jones is overpaid by any measure; and (2) that Carter and Lupul's contract are too rich for the Flyers, but not out of line with their market value.[/QUOTE]


Truth...

except for the carter part. his value is quickly exceeding the contract cost to the flyers. you have to consider that he is as important--or nearly so--as mike richards to this team. 5mil a year is a small piece to pay for that hardware. lupul and jones, while overpaid, are tradable assets. whether homer flips them for draft picks to cut cap, or packages them to upgrade defense are equally possible...

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