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Van-Stl: Because we all need another Canucks proposal

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Old
11-05-2008, 09:37 PM
  #26
John Belushi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndHereWeGo View Post
Yep, Canucks need a scorer when they are battling San Jose for 1st in goals for.
I'm of the opinion that the offense we've been seeing is going to be more of an exception rather than the norm. Vancouver would be wise to add a right-handed goalscorer to the top-six.

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Old
11-05-2008, 09:42 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by CRDragon View Post

We need a scorer......so someone like Boyes
Boyes for Bieksa is more realistic and not a bad idea, either.

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11-05-2008, 09:59 PM
  #28
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If we're talking to St.Louis, I'd rather get someone like Stempniak, who would be a decent linemate for Raymond and Demitra IMO.

Sedin-Sedin-Wellwood
Raymond-Demitra-Stempniak

Don't know what St.Louis would want though. While he's struggling now, I don't imagine he'd be that cheap, as just a year ago, Blues fans' were pegging him as a potenital future 40-50 goal guy.

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Old
11-05-2008, 10:14 PM
  #29
Randall Ritchey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
Boyes for Bieksa is more realistic and not a bad idea, either.
HAHAHAHAHA. Get real. It's going to take A LOT more than Bieksa to get Boyes.

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Old
11-06-2008, 06:28 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
If we're talking to St.Louis, I'd rather get someone like Stempniak, who would be a decent linemate for Raymond and Demitra IMO.

Sedin-Sedin-Wellwood
Raymond-Demitra-Stempniak

Don't know what St.Louis would want though. While he's struggling now, I don't imagine he'd be that cheap, as just a year ago, Blues fans' were pegging him as a potenital future 40-50 goal guy.
I'd rather trade Stempniak than MacDonald although he will be a UFA.

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Old
11-06-2008, 07:44 AM
  #31
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I just don't understand this desire to trade Bieksa that many canuck fans have?? he's had an injury-plagued season last year and was written off by many canuck fans at that point... this was after a spectacular year he had the year before - as the teams top offensive dman, while playing the entire season in a shutdown role! He was criticized a lot last year, while missing most of the year and then coming back from a longterm injury... it's not like he was overpaid either - he was on the last year of his $575K deal last season.

His new contract has kicked in this year... and so far this year, he's been our best overall dman through the first 13 games this year, and on the first year of a 3 yr deal!

and fans want to deal him for a playmaker who's going to hit UFA status after this season?

I stuck by Bieksa all last season when many fans were ready to throw him out - basically wanting to get rid of his new contract before it kicked in... and now when he's playing like the best dman we have, and is earning every $$ of that contract, people still want to trade him??

I hope Bieksa is in Vancouver for a very long time... he's the exact type of dman that every team wants!! A guy who can QB the PP, the best transition dman on the team... the toughest dman on the team, who's yet to lose a fight in the NHL... and a guy that can play on the top shutdown unit and top PK unit, while leading the defense offensively as well. These aren't the type of dmen you trade... they are the type you build a defense around... and after an injury-plagued season where he never got his timing back till the end of last year, he's bounced back and played very good hockey this year. It was even an injury that has no recurring effects and is behind him.

For everything that Bieksa brings, he's a bargain at $3.75mill/yr and locked up for 3 more seasons... why you'd want to trade that for a UFA to be, and one that doesn't even fill this club's biggest needs, is beyond me!

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Old
11-06-2008, 02:32 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
Boyes for Bieksa is more realistic and not a bad idea, either.
Yeah maybe not a bad idea if you are a crack smoker. There's no way that Bieksa gets Boyes. It would be Bieksa ++ to make the Blues consider it.

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Old
11-06-2008, 03:55 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Oshniak View Post
HAHAHAHAHA. Get real. It's going to take A LOT more than Bieksa to get Boyes.
Ok, counter proposal:

Bieksa and a '10 1st for Boyes and a 09 or 10 2nd

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Old
11-06-2008, 04:43 PM
  #34
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To everything proposed in this thread

I have much more to say, but it would be pretty harsh, so again

Not to mention, why would we trade with the Canucks? Something called a previous history...cough...offersheet.

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Old
11-06-2008, 05:23 PM
  #35
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Bieksa has averaged 28 minutes per game (more than any other Canuck defenseman by 5 minutes) since returning from his 4 game injury (including the game he WAS injured because he only played 2 minutes of it). He's stepped up his game incredibly and has far fewer defensive lapses. Definitely don't give him up except for a major upgrade to our offense.

I don't think McDonald would fit in well with the Canucks - we're not necessarily deep at center but we have 5 nhl-calibre players who can do it already (Hank, Kesler, Johnson, Wellwood, Demitra). If it was for a scoring winger, instead of a playmaking center, I'd give it a bit more thought.

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Old
11-06-2008, 05:24 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Zundo View Post
Not to mention, why would we trade with the Canucks? Something called a previous history...cough...offersheet.
Yeah, I bet you guys are pissed about having to lock up a young developing winger to a very reasonable rate for the next 3 years.

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Old
11-06-2008, 05:33 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
Yeah, I bet you guys are pissed about having to lock up a young developing winger to a very reasonable rate for the next 3 years.
Well we didn't need VANs assistance with that. Not to mention I would not call the price for him reasonable! He will be lucky to notch fifty points or be anything better than a third line winger at this point, unless he makes a major turn in his progress. But, enough with hijacking this thread.

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Old
11-06-2008, 05:50 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshniak View Post
HAHAHAHAHA. Get real. It's going to take A LOT more than Bieksa to get Boyes.
one's 26, one's 27.

both have had one great season and performed inconsistently in other years.

both are having good starts to the year this year.

one is a d-man that plays in all situations, is tough, and puts up points -- very valuable in this league.

one is a shoot-first winger with o.k. size and a knack for putting the puck in the net -- very valuable, but less so than the all-purpose d-man.


both are on good contracts.



Your outright dismissal of the trade proposal is completely ignorant.

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Old
11-06-2008, 07:21 PM
  #39
Randall Ritchey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
one's 26, one's 27.

both have had one great season and performed inconsistently in other years.

both are having good starts to the year this year.

one is a d-man that plays in all situations, is tough, and puts up points -- very valuable in this league.

one is a shoot-first winger with o.k. size and a knack for putting the puck in the net -- very valuable, but less so than the all-purpose d-man.


both are on good contracts.



Your outright dismissal of the trade proposal is completely ignorant.


I was REALLY hoping this would come up. Boyes has had more than one great season. You see him in his rookie year? I'll compare the two point wise.

Brad Boyes
257 games played - 93 goals, 98 assits for 191 points.
He is -16 in his career. A total of 83PIM. 23 PP goals. 1 SHG.
617 shots with a 15.1 shooting %

Kevin Bieksa
164 games played (quite a bit missed due to injury) 16 goals, 52 assists for 68 points.
-8 on the career. 314 PIM 7PP goals. 0 SHG. 323 shots. 5.0 shot %

Boyes has had a 26 goal, 43 assist season. 69 points in his rookie year. Dropped to 17 goals, 29 assists. 46 points his second season. Still a hell of a year. Ohh and last year...43 goals, 22 assists for 65 points last year. He has 7 goals 4 assists for 11 points in 11 games for the Blues this year.

Bieksa's highest scoring year 42 points. Not bad at all. But he only notched 12 goals. Blues need MORE goal scoring. So a Boyes for Bieksa move makes 0 sence. Now maybe Bieksa and Bernier would much closer. But Bieksa for Boyes alone would be a stupid move for the Blues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlwaysEndeavor View Post
Ok, counter proposal:

Bieksa and a '10 1st for Boyes and a 09 or 10 2nd
a 40 goal scorer and a possibly high pick who is unproven for a OK defensemen and a possibly high pick who is unproven? No thanks.

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Old
11-06-2008, 07:25 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshniak View Post
I'll compare the two point wise.
Not that I agree or disagree whether the trade is fair, comparing a forward and a defenseman "point wise" is retarded.

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Old
11-06-2008, 07:51 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandlak View Post
one's 26, one's 27.

both have had one great season and performed inconsistently in other years.

both are having good starts to the year this year.

one is a d-man that plays in all situations, is tough, and puts up points -- very valuable in this league.

one is a shoot-first winger with o.k. size and a knack for putting the puck in the net -- very valuable, but less so than the all-purpose d-man.


both are on good contracts.




Your outright dismissal of the trade proposal is completely ignorant.
First of all Boyes had two(out of three) good seasons in his career and this one is looking to be good too, sophomore slump anyone? Second of all he's aslo an excellent playmaker as well. He set up Karyia numerous times last season to watch a shot go wide, hit a post, etc. And while you won't mistake him for a Selke winner he's not a defensive liability. He's a very well rounded player. At his price point, which was recently resigned(not quite a sign and trade but still too soon) he's a very good bargain for the Blues.

Bieska and no Boyes for the Blues would not put us in playoff contention by any means. The Blues are not in a win now mode and this idea is bad from a long term perspective as well. Bieska is a good D-man but when you have EJ coming back next year and Pietrangelo at the latest next year it's certainly not worth the gamble of losing Boyes to fill a puck mover need for one year. We'd have to go out and make a FA signing to replace him or make another trade to replace what we lost in Boyes.

Now for the original proposal. Andy Mac could possibly be moved. I highly doubt at this point in time due to lack of center depth. If we moved him Tkachuk would have to go back to center. Oshie is injured currently and anyway neither he or Berglund have proved to be fully capable of being #1 night in and night out. Now if we cannot resign him or if Berglund/Oshie prove that he becomes a bit more moveable. Also if he's unwilling to resign then he would certainly be moved at the deadline. But not quite yet.

Now on top of that with our injuries this year it's hard to move off any one of our top forwards.

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Old
11-06-2008, 08:07 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshniak View Post
I was REALLY hoping this would come up. Boyes has had more than one great season. You see him in his rookie year? I'll compare the two point wise.

Brad Boyes
257 games played - 93 goals, 98 assits for 191 points.
He is -16 in his career. A total of 83PIM. 23 PP goals. 1 SHG.
617 shots with a 15.1 shooting %

Kevin Bieksa
164 games played (quite a bit missed due to injury) 16 goals, 52 assists for 68 points.
-8 on the career. 314 PIM 7PP goals. 0 SHG. 323 shots. 5.0 shot %

Boyes has had a 26 goal, 43 assist season. 69 points in his rookie year. Dropped to 17 goals, 29 assists. 46 points his second season. Still a hell of a year. Ohh and last year...43 goals, 22 assists for 65 points last year. He has 7 goals 4 assists for 11 points in 11 games for the Blues this year.

Bieksa's highest scoring year 42 points. Not bad at all. But he only notched 12 goals. Blues need MORE goal scoring. So a Boyes for Bieksa move makes 0 sence. Now maybe Bieksa and Bernier would much closer. But Bieksa for Boyes alone would be a stupid move for the Blues.


a 40 goal scorer and a possibly high pick who is unproven for a OK defensemen and a possibly high pick who is unproven? No thanks.
Maybe the Canucks could throw in Luongo to even the deal out? He only has 13 career points, but he's still pretty good in other areas.

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Old
11-06-2008, 08:17 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshniak View Post
I was REALLY hoping this would come up. Boyes has had more than one great season. You see him in his rookie year? I'll compare the two point wise.

Brad Boyes
257 games played - 93 goals, 98 assits for 191 points.
He is -16 in his career. A total of 83PIM. 23 PP goals. 1 SHG.
617 shots with a 15.1 shooting %

Kevin Bieksa
164 games played (quite a bit missed due to injury) 16 goals, 52 assists for 68 points.
-8 on the career. 314 PIM 7PP goals. 0 SHG. 323 shots. 5.0 shot %

Boyes has had a 26 goal, 43 assist season. 69 points in his rookie year. Dropped to 17 goals, 29 assists. 46 points his second season. Still a hell of a year. Ohh and last year...43 goals, 22 assists for 65 points last year. He has 7 goals 4 assists for 11 points in 11 games for the Blues this year.

Bieksa's highest scoring year 42 points. Not bad at all. But he only notched 12 goals. Blues need MORE goal scoring. So a Boyes for Bieksa move makes 0 sence. Now maybe Bieksa and Bernier would much closer. But Bieksa for Boyes alone would be a stupid move for the Blues.


a 40 goal scorer and a possibly high pick who is unproven for a OK defensemen and a possibly high pick who is unproven? No thanks.
An NHL defensemen has a lot more to give to his team than just points on the stat sheet. At least that's alwasy been my idea of it, of course I could be wrong.

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Old
11-06-2008, 08:36 PM
  #44
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Please don't lump Oshniak in with all Blues fans. Bieksa is a hell of a defencemen but St. Louis has problems scoring as it is. Losing McDonald doesn't make sense for St. Louis right now, though he is much more than just a playmaker.

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11-06-2008, 11:07 PM
  #45
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Neither team says yes to this.

Both players are having great starts, and both are very important the their respective teams.

Value wise, it's near perfect, it just doesn't work positionally.

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11-06-2008, 11:09 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZaphodBeeblebrox View Post
Please don't lump Oshniak in with all Blues fans. Bieksa is a hell of a defencemen but St. Louis has problems scoring as it is. Losing McDonald doesn't make sense for St. Louis right now, though he is much more than just a playmaker.
Congrats, you have taken the 4th spot on this list of non-canuck fans that's made any kind of positive remark about a Canucks player.

Your plaque is in the mail.

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Old
11-07-2008, 03:27 AM
  #47
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The Blues would pull the trigger. Andy Macs gone after this season anyway for a late 1st rounder +. I think Bieksa would move the puck for St. Louis for awhile. Yeah we got some good young D. But Bieksa offers a weapon we don't have this year and can only presume Johnson will provide next year. Bieksa types are harder to come by.

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Old
11-07-2008, 04:01 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Attica View Post
Neither team says yes to this.

Both players are having great starts, and both are very important the their respective teams.

Value wise, it's near perfect, it just doesn't work positionally.
This is the most intelligent and well stated argument in the thread. I salute you.

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Old
11-07-2008, 06:26 AM
  #49
Randall Ritchey
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You have to think of defensive play as well. Bieksa is a very good defender. But Boyes isn't a liability on the ice either.

Bieksa has been hurt to often in his young career already as Boyes has been healthy.

I compared points because that is the Blues need now is points and when you don't put them up, we don't trade our best scorer for them.

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11-07-2008, 08:57 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oshniak View Post
You have to think of defensive play as well. Bieksa is a very good defender. But Boyes isn't a liability on the ice either.

Bieksa has been hurt to often in his young career already as Boyes has been healthy.

I compared points because that is the Blues need now is points and when you don't put them up, we don't trade our best scorer for them.
first of all, Bieksa has been hurt once with a serious injury... he had a skate cut his calf, which is a serious injury, keeping him out for almost a full year, but it is not a recurring injury where the calf muscle becomes weaker and more prone to injury... so Bieksa is fully recovered after a freak injury which could happen to any player.... to even bring it up as a negative to his value makes no sense, as it is not a recurring nor a degenerative injury.

secondly, if you're comparing stats in any way here, than it shows you have no interest in Bieksa... looking at the stats sheet to get his value makes zero sense. He is not only a dman, he is one of the two shutdown dmen on the canucks that is matched up against the opposition's top lines every game... the forwards that are out there when he's on the ice, is usually his team's 3rd line forwards, that are out there to shutdown the opposition's top players... getting points from a dman is hard enough... expecting high totals when your first job is to shutdown the opposition is unrealistic. Bieksa is valuable not only because he can shutdown the opposition, he can also QB a PP and is a solid transition dman - which is why he gets points as well. And 12 goals and 42 pts, which he put up in his last healthy season (which he's on pace to beat this year), are remarkable totals for any dman. The closest any Blues dman has come to that since Pronger had 54 pts back in 03/04 (before the lockout) was EJ's 33 pts (in 69 games) last year. And those 42 pts that Bieksa put up 2 seasons ago were also 20th in the league in goals among dmen, and 24th in the league for points among dmen... all while playing on the top shutdown pairing all season.

but points again is a very poor judge of a dman's value... Bieksa is a very rare dman in the game, and why I've always been against trading him... how many tough, hard hitting dmen are there that are good enough to play the top shutdown unit, QB the PP, and are solid skaters and passers out of the zone? throw in that he's a right handed shot (which is a rarity now in the league and something every team looks for), and hasn't lost a fight yet, and he's not exactly the type of player that you deal... more the type of dmen you build a defense around.

That's how you value a dman... by looking at the things you expect a dman to bring to a team - not points. Any discussion of only comparing a dman's point totals to a forward's is useless from the start.

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