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TRADE: Flyers trade Downie, Eminger & a 4th for Matt Carle & 3rd Round Pick

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Old
11-08-2008, 11:28 AM
  #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yes, but calling him a 'reclamation project' is flat-out wrong.

As for the cap hit, the Flyers have some limited flexibility with guys like Knuble, Lupul, and Jones. They're not flush, but they can make some moves.
You're right, and I'm of the opinion that when you're making $2.9 with a $3.4 cap hit, that's not a reclamation project. This isn't like Coburn where if he didn't work out, they could walk away from him if it came to it. If Carle comes in and blows, and then comes back and blows, they're stuck with him unless they trade him for someone else's problem.

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11-08-2008, 11:35 AM
  #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
How is he not in the same mold as Downie? They're both agitators who aren't really fighters. He's not the same board presence, but he's a well above average 3rd liner.
Upshall is a brat, he isn't dirty. Hartnell can be a bit dirty. Downie can be a bit dirty. We used to have Hatcher, who was dirty when needed (who can forget his quote after the boarding penalty?).

I would also question Upshall as being a "well above average 3rd liner." Gotta bring a bit more than 30 pts before you earn that type of statement. Upshall meshes well with Carter, but so did Keith Jones with Lindros...doesn't make you more than you are.

Downie and Hartnell are both far more willing to drop the gloves than Upshall at that.

Upshall is a brat...Downie and Hartnell are sandpaper.

Quote:
Furthermore, take a look at the direction Holmgren is taking with this team. Out of our forwards, who's a below average skater? Knbule and Cote. I'd say our average skaters are probably Hartnell, Richie, and Metro. But if you look at guys important to the future, Carter, Briere, Gagne, Upshall, Lupul?, Giroux, Nodl, JVR. These guys are all great skaters who rely on speed. Downie's style doesn't really mesh with this.
You're describing a team that is trending towards one-dimensional...the very problem I have with marginalizing what a guy like Downie can bring to the team. You really want guys like Gagne, Nodl, Lupul, etc. being your grunts in the trenches? Or do you want some grunts who will get the puck out to them in space to shoot on goal?

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11-08-2008, 11:35 AM
  #303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Carle's salary and his performance. If he plays like he showed he could in 06-07, it's a good deal. If he plays like he did in 07-08, it's a disaster.
You forgot the middle ground. If he plays somewhere in between those two extremes, which seems very likely, then at best its a wash. If that ends up being the case, was it worth giving up Downie and taking on the extra cap hit?

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11-08-2008, 11:35 AM
  #304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
You're right, and I'm of the opinion that when you're making $2.9 with a $3.4 cap hit, that's not a reclamation project. This isn't like Coburn where if he didn't work out, they could walk away from him if it came to it. If Carle comes in and blows, and then comes back and blows, they're stuck with him unless they trade him for someone else's problem.
That's true, but I think if they put him in a good situation with a solid partner, he could do pretty well.

I mean, I saw that SJ team a lot last year and there was just something wrong with them. Pretty much everybody underachieved, questionable leadership, etc. Something is just off about that team, I'm not even sold on them this year.

Just get Carle with a defensive D (Vaananen or Parent) and we can see how he does.

As I told Jester, I'm not jumping for joy over this deal, but I'm not setting cars on fire either.

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11-08-2008, 11:36 AM
  #305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
You're right, and I'm of the opinion that when you're making $2.9 with a $3.4 cap hit, that's not a reclamation project. This isn't like Coburn where if he didn't work out, they could walk away from him if it came to it. If Carle comes in and blows, and then comes back and blows, they're stuck with him unless they trade him for someone else's problem.
Well...that's exactly why he's a reclamation project at this point. They need to get him back up to the talent that he displayed when he earned his ridiculous contract -- no player should get that much money off of one season.

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11-08-2008, 11:40 AM
  #306
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Carle is not a # 5-6 d-man, he is definetly a top #4 and let's not forget he was traded by San jose to get one of the more sought after d-men in the off-season. He's a good d-man and I think he'll be a better asset to this team than either of the 2 we gave up..............despite Stevens.

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11-08-2008, 11:41 AM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Upshall is a brat, he isn't dirty. Hartnell can be a bit dirty. Downie can be a bit dirty. We used to have Hatcher, who was dirty when needed (who can forget his quote after the boarding penalty?).

I would also question Upshall as being a "well above average 3rd liner." Gotta bring a bit more than 30 pts before you earn that type of statement. Upshall meshes well with Carter, but so did Keith Jones with Lindros...doesn't make you more than you are.

Downie and Hartnell are both far more willing to drop the gloves than Upshall at that.

Upshall is a brat...Downie and Hartnell are sandpaper.
Fair point, to clarify, I should say that Downie and Upshall both have potential to be very good 3rd liners, but Upshall's a lot closer to being there than Downie is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
You're describing a team that is trending towards one-dimensional...the very problem I have with marginalizing what a guy like Downie can bring to the team. You really want guys like Gagne, Nodl, Lupul, etc. being your grunts in the trenches? Or do you want some grunts who will get the puck out to them in space to shoot on goal?
Yeah, but look at Detroit last year, a very efficient offensive team. Who did their trench work? Holmstrom and Franzen and remember that Franzen missed a bit of the playoffs and they continued without a hitch.

A lot of that attitude and mentality has to come from your coach and from your captain. With a guy like Hitchcock (and Pat Burns), I think guys like Lupul would pull their shift. Look at guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, guys who aren't big, but show the commitment to do the dirty work. You need coaches who can get that effort out of players and judging by the lack of effort characteristic of all 3 Flyers teams under Stevens, I'm not going to hold my breath on that regard.

EDIT: Case in point would be Gagne under Hitchcock who turned himself into one of the best 2-way players in the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer
You forgot the middle ground. If he plays somewhere in between those two extremes, which seems very likely, then at best its a wash. If that ends up being the case, was it worth giving up Downie and taking on the extra cap hit?
If Carle becomes a 30-35 point 2nd pairing guy who can log 20 solid minutes with a defensive partner, then I think it's worth it and I think that scenario is possible.

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Old
11-08-2008, 11:47 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Tommy D View Post
Reading too much about how Homer this and that regarding the Downie trade. For the record Homer has done more for the Flyers on and off the ice then Downie ever did.

Lighten up on Homer guys. He took the burned out mess of a team and made us pretty darn good in short order.

Tommy
Some of the moves he made were absolutely brilliant. Without question. But look at the moves he's made in the past 12 months. Which one(s) are amazing?

Vandermeer
Modry
Alberts
Eminger
Vaananen (not a bad move, but a bit risky)

Time will tell how this latest move works out. I'm willing to give Carle the benefit of the doubt, but I don't see this trade helping the Flyers where it is needed.

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11-08-2008, 11:48 AM
  #309
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Kaktus, your constant negativity really annoys me lately. Could you at least give Carle a chance? From the stats, it doesn't look too bad. Tampa is not really a team which scores many goals (paradox, considering their offseason moves) and Matt Carle hasn't done bad so far. Not fantastic, but not bad.
Next, I do not think you give Homer enough credit. Yes, he had a good core to build on, but all of the people you named where just young talent and not proven commodities yet. Especially Giroux has still not proven himself entirely and was certainly not full time NHL material when Holmgren took over. Holmgren also drafted JVR (sure, it was an easy pick) and Sbisa. He also grabbed Lupul and a decent enough goaltender (but yes, he is in a slump right now). He also signed Brière and while it is a bit too big a contract, I'd still rather have him play for us than against us.

Also, it's coaching staff, not coaching stuff, but yeah, something needs to be done in that department.

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11-08-2008, 11:49 AM
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
If Carle becomes a 30-35 point 2nd pairing guy who can log 20 solid minutes with a defensive partner, then I think it's worth it and I think that scenario is possible.
Fair enough, and I hope this scenario plays out.

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11-08-2008, 12:11 PM
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosof99;16219838[B
]Kaktus, your constant negativity really annoys me lately.[/B] Could you at least give Carle a chance? From the stats, it doesn't look too bad. Tampa is not really a team which scores many goals (paradox, considering their offseason moves) and Matt Carle hasn't done bad so far. Not fantastic, but not bad.
Next, I do not think you give Homer enough credit. Yes, he had a good core to build on, but all of the people you named where just young talent and not proven commodities yet. Especially Giroux has still not proven himself entirely and was certainly not full time NHL material when Holmgren took over. Holmgren also drafted JVR (sure, it was an easy pick) and Sbisa. He also grabbed Lupul and a decent enough goaltender (but yes, he is in a slump right now). He also signed Brière and while it is a bit too big a contract, I'd still rather have him play for us than against us.

Also, it's coaching staff, not coaching stuff, but yeah, something needs to be done in that department.
I am only negative about our coaching staff. I never said this is a bad trade.

Put me on ignore list.


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11-08-2008, 12:26 PM
  #312
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homer

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Originally Posted by Pope Pogo II View Post
Flyers Acquire Defenseman Matt Carle

Flyers website:
It is time he gets put on the clock. At least he did not deal Giroux. As that idiot McGuire and Miller suggested.

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11-08-2008, 12:34 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
4) Okay Dig (or Storm, I liked Storm better btw, Dig doesn't have the same history yet ), I think Downie was a nice asset and will likely become a very good 3rd liner, maybe a serviceable 2nd liner. But look at what we have right now. Briere, Gagne, Carter, Richards, Lupul, Hartnell, Upshall, Nodl, JVR, Giroux. The only one of those guys I'd trade ahead of Downie would be Lupul and that's mainly because of the contract.

Taking out the whole Stevens ****-up for a second, Downie was definitely expendable. I don't think we maximized his potential value, but he was expendable. Look, I like the guy, I think he's probably going to be a good player. But the fact remains that there are issues. The whole skating issue for one thing (and he's not good enough offensively to be a one-dimensional guy). Also the discipline, I realize part of this is on Stevens, but the guy just does have a persistent habit of taking really poorly timed penalties.
Yes, we have depth on the wings. But, that's what the AHL is for. He should've been playing there the entire time getting experience and improving certain parts of his game. Downie, at the tender age of 21, didn't live up to his hype because he wasn't put in a position to. He was expendable, sure, but not in a deal that barely improves us and completely molests our cap structure.

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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Ok, first off I don't recall ANYONE here callig Richards a bust his rookie year. Carter??? Yes, but not Richards. Everyone was always falling all over themselves abour Richards but Carter got no love on here until half way thorugh last year. Hell half the trade proposals were from our own fans wanting to "dump his worthless ass" or other fans coming here looking to fleece us in a deal. Exactly WHEN do you think Downie would have been ready to crack our top 9???? Who does he bump out??? What about other young players we have waiting for a top 9 spot like Giroux, Nodl and JVR??? What 3 out of Briere, Carter, Richards, Gagne, Lupul, Hartnell, Knuble, Upshall, Nodl, Giroux and JVR do you want to get rid of to make room for Dowine???? Com on, don't be shy, get rid of 3 of those 11 to make room for Downie on the top 9 AND MAKE OUR TEAM BETTER!!! You're the one telling everyone else to EFF-off and that they don't know crap so come on, what do you do to make room for Downie??? You have way too much nujustified love for Downie.
I recall a lot of people bashing Richards, saying they don't get the hype, etc. The word bust was thrown around. Yes, the same was said of Carter. There isn't much patience here at Hockey's Future. People want the future to be now.

I don't know when Downie would be ready to crack the top 9. That's not up to me to decide. I do believe this team ****ed with his development and did not give him a chance to succeed or turn into a good NHL player. History is a good indicator of what players can turn into with the right development. In Downie's case - he was a winner and a clutch point producer, just like Mike Richards. He was a headcase from time to time, but he brought gritty skills to the table that not many players in our system do. He needed playing time and he needed patience in order for us to find out who he would bump out of our top 9.

So no, as of today or maybe next season, he was not ready to crack our top 9. But, he's 21 and has barely played over his first professional season plus a bit. There was good reason to wait and try to get his development back on track. It was far too early to give up because there was a chance he'd develop into a unique player for this franchise.

My "love" for Downie is quite justified. It's a shame most of you didn't get to see him perform in junior. Most of you didn't believe me about Richards, either.

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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Wrong. Carle is better than Eminger so our defense IS better than it was yesterday. Carle may not be a lot better than Eminger but he IS better than him. Carle may not be the single dman that turns this defense around but he IS better than Eminger and he's a much better bargining chip for a future trade than Downie and Eminger combined.
He's barely better right now at three times the cost. He's an offensive defenseman we don't really need. Scoring goals isn't the problem. I agree he's a bargaining chip for the future.

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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Anyhow, it's late and my mind is getting foggy so I'll end it here. Stop *****ing about losing Downie and acting like he was a top 6 forward, he simply wasn't. Upshall is a better potion than Downie and provides about the same to the team. I think that trading Downie signifies that Upshall will be kept around.
I think they are two different players at different points in their careers. As I said, Downie needed time to develop. That's what the AHL is for. Let him play down there for a year, two years, it doesn't matter. Just let the guy play and see where he goes. He's a first round pick with a stellar history of production and championships. He's not just some agitator. There was more potential there than you've seen in a few games on the 4th line under John Stevens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Fair point, to clarify, I should say that Downie and Upshall both have potential to be very good 3rd liners, but Upshall's a lot closer to being there than Downie is.
Well yeah, Upshall is older and has played quite a number of professional games. Downie's a kid and still qualifies as a rookie in the NHL (I think?).

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11-08-2008, 12:37 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Charlie_Girl View Post
Some of the moves he made were absolutely brilliant. Without question. But look at the moves he's made in the past 12 months. Which one(s) are amazing?

Vandermeer
Modry
Alberts
Eminger
Vaananen (not a bad move, but a bit risky)

Time will tell how this latest move works out. I'm willing to give Carle the benefit of the doubt, but I don't see this trade helping the Flyers where it is needed.
Dont forget Niskala!!!

SLIGHTLY OT. Whats funny is that Umberger took until he was 25 when he first broke 50 points. The same goes for Sharp and Williams.

Downies 21!!! The team gave up on him when Richards and Carter were both still sucking. cant wait tosee them do the same with JVR when he doesnt have a Hart trophey after a whole three seasons.

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11-08-2008, 01:03 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
We agree! Almost. Carle-Jones is a disaster waiting to happen.

My plan would be Kimmo-Coburn, Vaananen-Carle, Sbisa-Parent with Kukkonen as a good 7th and Jones and a forward traded to create a little cap space and maybe get a Halak or a Schneider here.
I mentioned it earlier I figured when everyone is healthy I could see Carle paired with Parent. I really believe we are better today defensively when healthy then we were yesterday when healthy

Timonen-Coburn
Carle-Parent
Vaananen-Jones

Alberts gets waived, Kukkonen is the 7th guy.

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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post

Downies 21!!! The team gave up on him when Richards and Carter were both still sucking. cant wait tosee them do the same with JVR when he doesnt have a Hart trophey after a whole three seasons.
They gave up on Downie with Carter and Richards sucking? what?
JVR is a FAR better prospect then Downie. Its not even close. Anyone who values Downie more then JVR is well, crazy.


Last edited by GoneFullHolmgren: 11-08-2008 at 01:12 PM.
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11-08-2008, 01:04 PM
  #316
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11-08-2008, 01:06 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
Dont forget Niskala!!!

SLIGHTLY OT. Whats funny is that Umberger took until he was 25 when he first broke 50 points. The same goes for Sharp and Williams.

Downies 21!!! The team gave up on him when Richards and Carter were both still sucking. cant wait tosee them do the same with JVR when he doesnt have a Hart trophey after a whole three seasons.
Learn hockey. The Flyers are desperately trying to setup a roster for right now, they need help RIGHT now. They need a puckmoving D and they got one. We didn't "give up" on Downie, we currently had no use for him and probably wouldn't in the future, with players like Claude Giroux and James VanRiemsdyk in the wings. Downie doesn't help us RIGHT now, Matt Carle does.

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11-08-2008, 01:12 PM
  #318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Yes, we have depth on the wings. But, that's what the AHL is for. He should've been playing there the entire time getting experience and improving certain parts of his game. Downie, at the tender age of 21, didn't live up to his hype because he wasn't put in a position to. He was expendable, sure, but not in a deal that barely improves us and completely molests our cap structure.
I'm not denying he was misused, hell, I like the guy, read the GDTs. But the fact is that he was no guarantee whatsoever and that he still has a lot of obstacles in his path that have nothing to do with Stevens. Do I personally think he will beat these obstacles? Yes. Does the organization think he will? Maybe not. If he turns into a 50 point player, that's on them.

As far as the cap goes, I'm going to withhold judgment until Holmgren makes his next move. If his salary dump is trading Parent and Jones for a 6th, then I have a problem with it. Also, I know Carle is more of an offensive d-man, but the way we play, just controlling the puck has to be a huge priority and Carle helps us more than Eminger in that regard. As far as Eminger goes, my hope was for him to eventually turn into a No.4. For Carle, I think his ceiling is a very good No.3 offensive d-man. If Parent pans out too, then we have ourselves a very nice looking top-4 on the burner.

I'm not a fan of these throw **** at the wall type deals, but what else is Holmgren supposed to do right now? The market for d-men is unbelievably expensive right now. I mean, name me a couple No.3s and tell me why it's feasible that we could trade for them.

People talk about how Holmgren was going to make this better over the summer. Well what the hell was he supposed to do? Throw 3.5 mill at Jeff Finger? Trade Carter and JVR for J-Bouw and then pay J-Bouw 8 mill?

When people bash Holmgren for Stevens, I completely understand it and I agree with it because there are obviously better courses of action. But as far as defense goes, what is there to do? We just saw a legit No.1 C (Jokinen) dealt in a deal where the centerpiece coming back the other way was an iffy top-pairing d-man (Ballard).

There just aren't defensive options out there right now, why else do you think guys like Rozsival are getting paid 5 million dollars per year? Seriously, just think about that for a second. Michal Rozsival, a very good No.3, is getting paid 5 mill. The market for d-men is just out of control. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul
Well yeah, Upshall is older and has played quite a number of professional games. Downie's a kid and still qualifies as a rookie in the NHL (I think?).
True although I don't think he has rookie status, but the fact remains that Upshall is more of the sure thing.

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11-08-2008, 01:15 PM
  #319
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It absolutely sucks and i officially hate Paul Holmgren for this one!


BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

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11-08-2008, 01:19 PM
  #320
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Get used to turnovers and Carle getting beat wide.

Goodluck.
I'm salivating at the thought of Crosby and Malkin beating Carle wide. Thanks Homer!

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11-08-2008, 01:24 PM
  #321
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They gave up on Downie with Carter and Richards sucking? what?
When those two were 21 they sucked. sophmore slump and all that.
Quote:
JVR is a FAR better prospect then Downie. Its not even close. Anyone who values Downie more then JVR is well, crazy.
Pitkanen was a tpo four puck mover but that didnt stop Philly from turning on him and he was a fourth overall. And that was when we NEEDED help at D. bottom line is patience and Philly are oil and water.

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11-08-2008, 01:30 PM
  #322
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werent some folks clamoring for Carle in the summer? (with the colorado d-man being the second as we couldn't afford Boyle at the time) We got what every whiner wanted: a second pairing d-man. The guy has talent, he was the quarterback on the SJ power play and you have to give talent to get it (Boyle). And to the clown 2 above, Crysby and that ****in russian will probably be seeing the top pairing d-men.....unless?

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11-08-2008, 01:38 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Clown Baby View Post
When those two were 21 they sucked. sophmore slump and all that.Pitkanen was a tpo four puck mover but that didnt stop Philly from turning on him and he was a fourth overall. And that was when we NEEDED help at D. bottom line is patience and Philly are oil and water.
yeah and what do Downie and Pitkanen have in common other then they were traded from the Flyers?
Ill give you a hint its from the neck up.

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11-08-2008, 01:39 PM
  #324
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I'm salivating at the thought of Crosby and Malkin beating Carle wide. Thanks Homer!
yeah and im looking forward to Richards blowing up Malkin again
go away.

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11-08-2008, 01:41 PM
  #325
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Country: Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FireStevensDotCom View Post
yeah and what do Downie and Pitkanen have in common other then they were traded from the Flyers?
Ill give you a hint its from the neck up.
And that's about as unfair (and completely unsupportable) as it will get.

Kid throws a body check that resulted in a bad injury--I'll repeat, a body check...something that happens in every NHL game in its most basic form--and he gets transformed into some mouth breathing idiot? Pitkanen's problems appear to be a clear cultural translation and quite possible anti-social problems in adjusting to the US.

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