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Old
11-08-2008, 12:09 AM
  #1
BrindamoursNose
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Phi-FLA

To Philly:

J-Bo
5th


to FLA:

Carle
Lupul
3rd


Your thoughts.

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Old
11-08-2008, 12:57 AM
  #2
Blackhawkswincup
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Not even close in value!

Although i think Florida would like a player like Lupul! Carle on the other hand looks like a trainwreck right now!

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Old
11-08-2008, 01:19 AM
  #3
phlocky
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Not even close in value!

Although i think Florida would like a player like Lupul! Carle on the other hand looks like a trainwreck right now!

Actually this is probably a pretty decent offer. Much of it will depend upon how Carle plays during his time in Philly. If he rebounds his game and returns to form close to his rookie year (and thus appearing to start reaching his "potential") then the 3rd is adequate. The salaries work out fine for Philly and that is critical for them at this point.

However, if Carle continues to struggle then I think Philly will need to upgrade that 3rd rnd pick. Right now Philly has traded away there 09 2nd, 3rd, 7th and conditionally traded away theor 4th. That leaves them with only their 09 1st, 5th and 6th and an 09 3rd from SJS. In this years draft, including a 1st with Carle and Lupul would be over payment for J-Bo so expect either Fla to have to return an 09 2nd for Phillies 09 1st or a high end prospect like Nodl or Ratchuk to replace the 09 3rd.

J-Bo is a UFA at seasons end so he won't likely bring more than what is in this porposal. To say that this isn't even close is to know nothing about the value of players in realistic deals. Pronger barely brought more than this in return and HE was under contract for more than just the season he was traded AND he was traded for the entire season, not just as a playoff rental which is all J-Bo will be.

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Old
11-08-2008, 01:44 AM
  #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Actually this is probably a pretty decent offer. Much of it will depend upon how Carle plays during his time in Philly. If he rebounds his game and returns to form close to his rookie year (and thus appearing to start reaching his "potential") then the 3rd is adequate. The salaries work out fine for Philly and that is critical for them at this point.

However, if Carle continues to struggle then I think Philly will need to upgrade that 3rd rnd pick. Right now Philly has traded away there 09 2nd, 3rd, 7th and conditionally traded away theor 4th. That leaves them with only their 09 1st, 5th and 6th and an 09 3rd from SJS. In this years draft, including a 1st with Carle and Lupul would be over payment for J-Bo so expect either Fla to have to return an 09 2nd for Phillies 09 1st or a high end prospect like Nodl or Ratchuk to replace the 09 3rd.

J-Bo is a UFA at seasons end so he won't likely bring more than what is in this porposal. To say that this isn't even close is to know nothing about the value of players in realistic deals. Pronger barely brought more than this in return and HE was under contract for more than just the season he was traded AND he was traded for the entire season, not just as a playoff rental which is all J-Bo will be.
Even if Carle plays well enough for the Flyers the Panthers aren't going to take on that contract because of a few solid months of play.

And i would say looking at the last several years trades of high caliber UFA's i dont think Florida would take such a low return proposal! I dont expect Forsberg to Nashville type overpayment but a solid 2nd line RW, A failing young dman and a 3rd isn't going to get you J-Bo!

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Old
11-08-2008, 03:15 AM
  #5
phlocky
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Even if Carle plays well enough for the Flyers the Panthers aren't going to take on that contract because of a few solid months of play.

And i would say looking at the last several years trades of high caliber UFA's i dont think Florida would take such a low return proposal! I dont expect Forsberg to Nashville type overpayment but a solid 2nd line RW, A failing young dman and a 3rd isn't going to get you J-Bo!
What the hell do you thenk Forsberg returned???? Upshall is only a 3rd line winger at best. He skates fast but really isn't very valuable beyond that. If you REALLY think he's all that and a bag of pucks then be my guest but as a Flyers fan, though I'm not disappointed in him, I know what he's really worth. We got a late 1st rnd pick and a 3rd in the 07 draft but the real value was in Ryan Parent, the 3rd best young dman in their system. And, just in case you didn't know, there was serious question surrounding Parent and whether or not he'd EVER be able to play in the NHL as he had missed portions of his previous junior season with a degenerative disc problem in his back. At best Parent was projected to be a 2nd pairing dman. So lets see, a "potential" 2nd pairing junior dman with SERIOUS health issues, a 3rd line winger (who is pretty common around the league but necessary cheaper players) and late 1st and 3rd rnd picks in an average draft is over-payment while a PROVEN 2nd line winger (I think it's pretty safe to say that Lupul has PROVEN himself a legit 2nd line winger at this point), a young puck moving dman with top 4 potential (albeit on a very bad contract right now but IF he turns it around he'll be a bargin through the 11/12 season), and a 3rd rnd pick in probably the strongest draft in the past 15-20 years is serious underpayment???? And it's for a player (Forsberg) who'e suppose to have far superior trade value than J-Bo??? Again, Carles current contract is the only thing that gives pause to this proposal. If he can begin to turn things around then the 3rd is plenty in the package to complete the deal. If he looks to only be about what he currently is then a 1st in 09 along with Carle AND Lupul would outweight what the Flyers got for Forsberg. That is why Fla would have to return a 2nd in 09.

If you are going to try and cite a previous deal like the Forsberg one as a reference please actually know the value of the trade you are quoting. YOU may not like Carle but the fact is that he has PROVEN that he is an above average offensive dman and like it or not, those players have value in the NHL. Carle will never be good defensively but let him open it up offensively and protect him as much as you can in his own zone and he's still a valuable asset to any team out there. Guys like Souray and Gonchar have made a career of being great offensive dmen even though they are a liability in the defensive zone. These guys get paid a lot of money just for their offensive play. Last year Carle was vilified when the entire sharks team was playing like crap defensively. Carle fell out of favor because he was being asked to do something he wasn't equiped to do, play a defensive style. TB is a train wreck and though FLA may not be any better for Carle, if he's left to do what he does best, add offense from the blue line and play the point on the PP, he can easily be a 30-40 point player year-in, year-out. Dismissing him and this proposal as readily as you have clearly shows that you don't follow other teams very much nor do you examine very many trades. Simply dismissing others arguments without anything of substance to back your POV clearly shows that you base your "opinion" just on your feelings and not on objective observations. Try looking at things with an open mind and if you really don't know much about the subject (in this case the value of a player like J-Bo based upon recent similar players to be traded AND the players being offered in return) then simply don't comment on them. There are plenty of trade proposals out there that I DON'T comment on simply because I don't know enough about the players in the proposal to make a fair and objective evaluation. This is clearly the case with you this time and you should have kept shut about the proposal. As you decided to interject without proper knowledge of the players invilved you come out looking bad. Sorry, but you brought this on yourself.

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Old
11-08-2008, 03:36 AM
  #6
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Yep, I think this would do it. The 3rd may not be needed; instead, another player. The Panthers aren't looking to pile picks up for a rebuild, they're moving out of the rebuild stage right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see Florida give a 2nd along with Jaybo to get another Flyers player.

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Old
11-08-2008, 08:13 AM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Actually this is probably a pretty decent offer. Much of it will depend upon how Carle plays during his time in Philly. If he rebounds his game and returns to form close to his rookie year (and thus appearing to start reaching his "potential") then the 3rd is adequate. The salaries work out fine for Philly and that is critical for them at this point.

However, if Carle continues to struggle then I think Philly will need to upgrade that 3rd rnd pick. Right now Philly has traded away there 09 2nd, 3rd, 7th and conditionally traded away theor 4th. That leaves them with only their 09 1st, 5th and 6th and an 09 3rd from SJS. In this years draft, including a 1st with Carle and Lupul would be over payment for J-Bo so expect either Fla to have to return an 09 2nd for Phillies 09 1st or a high end prospect like Nodl or Ratchuk to replace the 09 3rd.

J-Bo is a UFA at seasons end so he won't likely bring more than what is in this porposal. To say that this isn't even close is to know nothing about the value of players in realistic deals. Pronger barely brought more than this in return and HE was under contract for more than just the season he was traded AND he was traded for the entire season, not just as a playoff rental which is all J-Bo will be.
We have Calgary's 3rd round pick as well

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Old
11-08-2008, 09:25 AM
  #8
puzzle
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I don't like this proposal...I think that Lupul, Parent and a prospect (May be Nodl) for J-Bo and a late pick (A 4th or a 5th) would be better for both teams.

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Old
11-08-2008, 09:29 AM
  #9
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What's been going on with Parent? He has seemed to be in the minors for ages? Am I wrong? What's his potential?

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Old
11-08-2008, 09:35 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booootthh View Post
What's been going on with Parent? He has seemed to be in the minors for ages? Am I wrong? What's his potential?
Parent has a really great potential. He should be on the 2nd pairing with the flyers right now, but he's injured.

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Old
11-08-2008, 09:37 AM
  #11
decadentia
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Originally Posted by Booootthh View Post
What's been going on with Parent? He has seemed to be in the minors for ages? Am I wrong? What's his potential?
Parent looked great before he got injured, optimistic Flyer fans were hoping to see him on the 2nd pairing. The organization is quite high on him as well.


As for the original deal at hand, I can't see this happening. Admittedly, Carle's worth right now is in limbo. It remains to be seen exactly what Carle brings to the table. I could see it possible if Carle's recent play was but a mere hiccup.

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Old
11-08-2008, 09:39 AM
  #12
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come on, let carle play a game first

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Old
11-08-2008, 05:38 PM
  #13
BrindamoursNose
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I don't think giving up Parent would do better for the Flyers. He's one of the few guys on our team that's a shut down defensive guy

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Old
11-08-2008, 09:26 PM
  #14
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
I don't think giving up Parent would do better for the Flyers. He's one of the few guys on our team that's a shut down defensive guy
That's not what he was last year. He's got to prove it to be a matter of fact. And I don't mind moving him if it's for a guy who can already do that.

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Old
11-09-2008, 02:06 AM
  #15
BrindamoursNose
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That's not what he was last year. He's got to prove it to be a matter of fact. And I don't mind moving him if it's for a guy who can already do that.
How many games did he play last year. He looked pretty good to me in the playoffs in those few games.

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Old
11-09-2008, 02:07 AM
  #16
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I dont know about this one..

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11-09-2008, 10:07 AM
  #17
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I like it, but it would depend on if J-Bo will be under contract past this year. I can't see sending over signed players for someone who will leave. If he signs, I think it works out as long as he can fit in the cap (something close to what Lupul and Carle would have together).

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Old
11-09-2008, 10:13 AM
  #18
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I like it, but it would depend on if J-Bo will be under contract past this year. I can't see sending over signed players for someone who will leave. If he signs, I think it works out as long as he can fit in the cap (something close to what Lupul and Carle would have together).
If J-Bo is signed (or indicates he will sign) to a long term deal, he is worth more than this rental value proposal.

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Old
11-09-2008, 10:37 AM
  #19
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What the hell do you thenk Forsberg returned???? Upshall is only a 3rd line winger at best. He skates fast but really isn't very valuable beyond that. If you REALLY think he's all that and a bag of pucks then be my guest but as a Flyers fan, though I'm not disappointed in him, I know what he's really worth. We got a late 1st rnd pick and a 3rd in the 07 draft but the real value was in Ryan Parent, the 3rd best young dman in their system. And, just in case you didn't know, there was serious question surrounding Parent and whether or not he'd EVER be able to play in the NHL as he had missed portions of his previous junior season with a degenerative disc problem in his back. At best Parent was projected to be a 2nd pairing dman. So lets see, a "potential" 2nd pairing junior dman with SERIOUS health issues, a 3rd line winger (who is pretty common around the league but necessary cheaper players) and late 1st and 3rd rnd picks in an average draft is over-payment while a PROVEN 2nd line winger (I think it's pretty safe to say that Lupul has PROVEN himself a legit 2nd line winger at this point), a young puck moving dman with top 4 potential (albeit on a very bad contract right now but IF he turns it around he'll be a bargin through the 11/12 season), and a 3rd rnd pick in probably the strongest draft in the past 15-20 years is serious underpayment???? And it's for a player (Forsberg) who'e suppose to have far superior trade value than J-Bo??? Again, Carles current contract is the only thing that gives pause to this proposal. If he can begin to turn things around then the 3rd is plenty in the package to complete the deal. If he looks to only be about what he currently is then a 1st in 09 along with Carle AND Lupul would outweight what the Flyers got for Forsberg. That is why Fla would have to return a 2nd in 09.

If you are going to try and cite a previous deal like the Forsberg one as a reference please actually know the value of the trade you are quoting. YOU may not like Carle but the fact is that he has PROVEN that he is an above average offensive dman and like it or not, those players have value in the NHL. Carle will never be good defensively but let him open it up offensively and protect him as much as you can in his own zone and he's still a valuable asset to any team out there. Guys like Souray and Gonchar have made a career of being great offensive dmen even though they are a liability in the defensive zone. These guys get paid a lot of money just for their offensive play. Last year Carle was vilified when the entire sharks team was playing like crap defensively. Carle fell out of favor because he was being asked to do something he wasn't equiped to do, play a defensive style. TB is a train wreck and though FLA may not be any better for Carle, if he's left to do what he does best, add offense from the blue line and play the point on the PP, he can easily be a 30-40 point player year-in, year-out. Dismissing him and this proposal as readily as you have clearly shows that you don't follow other teams very much nor do you examine very many trades. Simply dismissing others arguments without anything of substance to back your POV clearly shows that you base your "opinion" just on your feelings and not on objective observations. Try looking at things with an open mind and if you really don't know much about the subject (in this case the value of a player like J-Bo based upon recent similar players to be traded AND the players being offered in return) then simply don't comment on them. There are plenty of trade proposals out there that I DON'T comment on simply because I don't know enough about the players in the proposal to make a fair and objective evaluation. This is clearly the case with you this time and you should have kept shut about the proposal. As you decided to interject without proper knowledge of the players invilved you come out looking bad. Sorry, but you brought this on yourself.

My eyes

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Old
11-09-2008, 02:32 PM
  #20
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not too bad, im not sure Carle would be happy to move 4 times in 4 months though

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Old
11-09-2008, 06:14 PM
  #21
BrindamoursNose
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not too bad, im not sure Carle would be happy to move 4 times in 4 months though
He only would move 3 times....

and who cares? It's not up to Carle

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Old
11-09-2008, 07:43 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by BrindamoursNose View Post
To Philly:

J-Bo
5th


to FLA:

Carle
Lupul
3rd


Your thoughts.
this trade gave me a good laugh if this trade happened that would mean Matt calre would have been traded 3 times in the past 4 or 5 months...way to kill a kids confidence dude

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Old
11-09-2008, 07:45 PM
  #23
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this trade gave me a good laugh if this trade happened that would mean Matt calre would have been traded 3 times in the past 4 or 5 months...way to kill a kids confidence dude
But he would have been traded for guys like Dan Boyle and Jay Bo!!! Way to increase a kid confidence

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Old
11-10-2008, 01:15 AM
  #24
BrindamoursNose
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this trade gave me a good laugh if this trade happened that would mean Matt calre would have been traded 3 times in the past 4 or 5 months...way to kill a kids confidence dude
Who cares about his confidence? That's the second time someone has brought up how Carle feels or his confidence after being traded. I certainly won't if he isn't on my team.

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Old
11-10-2008, 01:24 AM
  #25
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Flyer fans really need to let go of their hard-on for Bouwmeester. Give me Lupul and Jones for Skrastins and a flier on some futures like Stewart or Markstrom.

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