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Old
11-09-2008, 08:24 PM
  #176
Kriss E
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Originally Posted by Number8 View Post
If you are telling me there is nothing that can be changed after Frame 5 (when he starts his weight transfer), then Kostopoulous is super human.

Because to follow your argument, Kostopolous had no plans to drive Van Ryan into the boards for Frames 1-3 when Van Ryan's IS facing the boards.

That would mean in the fraction of a second between Frames 3 to 5 when Van Ryan does start to turn behind the net, Kostopolous is now able to not only decide to lay the hit but also begin to transfer his weight - after which, according to you, everything else is unavoidable and inevitable.

Apparently he can think and act with super computer speed for Frames 3 to 5, but not from 5-9.

Face it, Kostopoulus planned on drilling Van Ryan from Frame 1 onward. He just ASSUMED Van Ryan would turn to go behind the net. But he assumed wrong, and Van Ryan got hurt pretty badly.

Did we learn nothing from the Bergeron hit? Bergeron is a good guy and player who was in a vulnerable position (whether he put himself in that position or not is irrelevant - he was vulnerable). And he paid for it dearly. Van Ryan was in a vulnerable position and got smoked.

At the end of the day, players (Bruins, Habs, Oilers, Flyers, whoever) have to think a little bit more about how to check players who are facing the boards and what the benefit/risk reward is. Big hit - charges up your team and excites the crowd. Some guys nose getting driven into his skull tends to cast a dreadful pall over the crowd and leave anyone with decency feeling bad.

Kostopolous I'm sure didn't mean to badly hurt Van Ryan. But he, like all players, need to think a little bit more about these types of play. Easier said than done, I know. But the downside is pretty significant.
In frames 1-3 Van Ryan is fallowing the motion of skating towards the back of the net. At this point, it looks like he'll continue to skate or just shoot the puck around the boards with his shoulder facing the boards.

By frame 5-6, Kosto starts to transfer his weight and braces himself to give a solid check. At the same time, Van Ryan starts breaking and for some brilliant reason, give his back to Kosto that he very well knows is coming to hit him.

Kostopoulos had every plan to hit Van Ryan, there's no doubt about that. If Van Ryan doesn't have the intelligent idea of breaking to face the boards, he gets a regular shoulder hit and the play continues, nobody injured.

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Old
11-09-2008, 08:37 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
the thing is though in this instance Van Ryn was NOT facing the boards when Kosto initiated his hitting motion. You have totally failed to grasp the point.
Actually I think you missed the point I was trying to make.

I'm saying it was a bang bang play -- and that if the time involved meant that Kostopolous could not stop the process once it started in Frame 5, then he would also not have been able to switch from "no hit" mode in Frames 1-2 (because Van Ryan's back was facing boards) to "hit" mode once he sees Van Ryan beginning to turn.

You can't have it both ways. It happened in a fraction of a second - but if it was all happening so fast, don't tell me he didn't already plan on laying a hit on Frame 1.

In fact, go back and look at Frame 2. Look at the change in body position from Frame 1. He is starting the process, no question.

Bottom line is Kostopolous had every intention of drilling him from Frame 1 onward. I'm sure he ASSUMED Van Ryan would turn. But Van Ryan didn't -- and if you're going to drill someone into the end boards, you should KNOW the coast is clear.

Do you make a turn across traffic despite a car approaching at a high rate of speed simply because he has his blinker on and therefore should be making a turn before they reach you? No. In that situation you look for some other clue that they are actually going to make a turn before you cross a lane of traffic (such as beginning to slow down) - or risk getting blasted broad side.

If you are lining up a player who is moving up ice into the side boards, blast away. If you get the timing wrong or miss, your the one who pays the price. If you are cruising in at a high rate of speed (look at Kostopolous, he is already coasting just waiting to pull the trigger) on someone who's back is at a late point facing the boards, you need to hold up somehow. That, or risk telling the quadraplegic "Well, I'm really sorry. In addition to helping feed and dress you today, I also came to tell you that you really shouldn't have turned to face the boards before I hit you."

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11-09-2008, 08:38 PM
  #178
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Nice work on the frames ZNK.

I've observed the 24 hour rule on this one and looked at the video again. No suspension based on the fact that van Ryn put himself in a position to get hurt. He turned away from the boards and turned himself back in again at the last second. The League looks at this when evaluating discipline. Unfortunate for the injured guy, but in this case no suspension is warranted.

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Old
11-09-2008, 08:41 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by zurg999 View Post
Nice work on the frames ZNK.

I've observed the 24 hour rule on this one and looked at the video again. No suspension based on the fact that van Ryn put himself in a position to get hurt. He turned away from the boards and turned himself back in again at the last second. The League looks at this when evaluating discipline. Unfortunate for the injured guy, but in this case no suspension is warranted.
Good advice, after taking the time and looking at it again. I have a whole new perspective on the hit.

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11-09-2008, 09:38 PM
  #180
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I'm not sure the disciplinary commitee will spend that much time looking at all these angles and analysing Kosto's intents frame by frame.

Any hit in the back of a player who is facing the boards is dangerous. What makes the intent to injure is the number of steps taken to gather speed, the force of the hit and whether the hitter left his feet to apply all his weight on the point of impact.

As in football, there should be in hockey such a thing as unnecessary roughness and intent to injure. Kosto was coming very fast and he seemed to have all his weight behind the hit as you can see by the position of one of his skates on frame #11.

The distance Van Ryn was from the board is also important. Lucic's hit against him where he broke the pane of glass in a recent game against the Bruins was probably much harder but Van Ryn was hit sideways and he was very close to the boards which is a less vulnerable position. Last night, Van Ryn was a few feet from the board when he was nailed and he was very vulnerable.

I think Kosto will be suspended at least 4 games. There is pressure on the league to be more severe when such incidents occur and Kostopoulos not being a superstar, they will lower the boom on him.


Last edited by rocketlives: 11-10-2008 at 07:22 AM.
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Old
11-09-2008, 09:44 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Number8 View Post
If you are telling me there is nothing that can be changed after Frame 5 (when he starts his weight transfer), then Kostopoulous is super human.

Because to follow your argument, Kostopolous had no plans to drive Van Ryan into the boards for Frames 1-3 when Van Ryan's IS facing the boards.

That would mean in the fraction of a second between Frames 3 to 5 when Van Ryan does start to turn behind the net, Kostopolous is now able to not only decide to lay the hit but also begin to transfer his weight - after which, according to you, everything else is unavoidable and inevitable.

Apparently he can think and act with super computer speed for Frames 3 to 5, but not from 5-9.

Face it, Kostopoulus planned on drilling Van Ryan from Frame 1 onward. He just ASSUMED Van Ryan would turn to go behind the net. But he assumed wrong, and Van Ryan got hurt pretty badly.

Did we learn nothing from the Bergeron hit? Bergeron is a good guy and player who was in a vulnerable position (whether he put himself in that position or not is irrelevant - he was vulnerable). And he paid for it dearly. Van Ryan was in a vulnerable position and got smoked.

At the end of the day, players (Bruins, Habs, Oilers, Flyers, whoever) have to think a little bit more about how to check players who are facing the boards and what the benefit/risk reward is. Big hit - charges up your team and excites the crowd. Some guys nose getting driven into his skull tends to cast a dreadful pall over the crowd and leave anyone with decency feeling bad.

Kostopolous I'm sure didn't mean to badly hurt Van Ryan. But he, like all players, need to think a little bit more about these types of play. Easier said than done, I know. But the downside is pretty significant.
Of course Kostpoulos planed to drive him in to the boards. Wtf kind game do you think he plays? As with any player he was going down the ice with a few options in mind but his main idea the moment he strated gliding was to hit him. But that's because when you play this game you have to anticipate....how do you do this? You go by experience and what usually happens.

It's simple "If he turns out of the corner parallel to the boards I nail him" So what he's looking for is a sing that Van Ryn is going to do this and as proved by the video it's what he saw. That is the point where he started his motion for the hit.

If Van Ryn had just breaked in the corner or never hinted at moving along the boards Kostopoulos would not have hit. The trigger was the move by Van Ryn. That's how hockey is played. You anticipate a move and prepare an reaction to it.

So your whole argument is totally flawed.

edit: And thx to all those who commented on the images.


Last edited by znk: 11-09-2008 at 10:20 PM.
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Old
11-09-2008, 09:48 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by rocketlives View Post

I think Kosto will be suspended at least 4 games. There is pressure on the league to be more severe when such incidents occur and Kostopoulos not being a superstar, they will lower the boom on him.
If Kosto gets anything more than two games, that will be a crime given that multi-repeat offender Ryan Hollweg of the Leafs only recently received three automatic games (no further discipline) for his 3rd hitting from behind infraction in his last 40 games. Kostopoulos isn't a dirty player and he felt remorse. Hollweg obviously doesn't feel any kind of remorse and hasn't learned his lesson.

By the way, Pietrangelo missed almost a month from Hollweg's last infraction.

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Old
11-09-2008, 09:52 PM
  #183
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Kinda funny to see a hockey fan base calling the Habs a dirty team...coming from a team who got Ryan Hollweg in their lineup !

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11-09-2008, 10:27 PM
  #184
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last night watching the game i said to my buddy van ryn was an idiot .... don't get me wrong he doesn't deserve to get hurt nobody does but anybody and i mean anybody with half an ounce of hockey sense at all knows when you turn and look over your shoulder at the guy coming towards you in the corner you better get prepared for whats coming. they are both coasting in MVR clearly looks over his shoulder right at kosto and sees him coming then fakes going around the net ... Kostopolous doesn't buy the fake ( nobody is gonna buy that sale even at half price ) sorry very sorry that he injured the guy but you can't hold kostopoulous completely responsible for what VAN RYN and everyone else in the whole damn world that was watching knew what was gonna be coming on the way into the corner.

there's not a person on this board or anywhere that can truthfully say they had no idea ... it was obvious when the 2 players were at the top of the Circle coasting towards the corner that Kosto was gonna hit him.

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Old
11-09-2008, 10:57 PM
  #185
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It wasn't a nice hit or anything but i disagree with it being a "Dirty hit" Kostopoulus tried to avoid it and Van Ryn even looked back saw kostopoulus come, put himself in the position and kostopulus was too close to stop so he just finished it off. Maybe a 1 game suspension but Van Ryn must have known it was coming seeing as he looked back and that was certainly no intent to injure.

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11-09-2008, 11:24 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by crump View Post
Van Ryn's back is to him the entire clip. Is Van Ryn facing him at any time? Player A is going into the corner, facing the glass, player B is going into the corner, facing the glass. A hit from behind.
Just because there is a rule "no hitting from behind" doesn't mean that Van Ryn ever has to face kosto for him to make a legal check. A legal hit would be one on Van Ryn's shoulder and side.

Players are not 2 dimensional with only a front and a back.

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11-09-2008, 11:31 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Just because there is a rule "no hitting from behind" doesn't mean that Van Ryn ever has to face kosto for him to make a legal check. A legal hit would be one on Van Ryn's shoulder and side.

Players are not 2 dimensional with only a front and a back.

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11-10-2008, 01:05 AM
  #188
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I think you're looking for these guys:



But yeah, hockey players haven't been 2 dimensional since I was in elementary school... i.e. when the Whalers were still around.

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11-10-2008, 06:49 AM
  #189
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All what this hit does is increase the tension between Maple Leafs and Canadiens, I'm excited for January 8: a lot of action will happen.

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Old
11-10-2008, 07:13 AM
  #190
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Van Ryn looked back and saw Kosto coming, he didn't brace himself at all. I mean at some point a player has to look out for number 1 out there. Hockey would suck if every time a player looked over his shoulder and saw a hit coming, he turned right back around again and ignored it. Its hard for the checker to let up.

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11-10-2008, 07:51 AM
  #191
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So your whole argument is totally flawed.
hmmm hmm.

Sooner or later players have to think a little more about the possible impacts of bigger, faster players going for the huge hit against the end boards with reckless abandon. But I guess that argument is flawed.

And we're on the topic of what happened and when, go take a look at your frame by frame post again. Exactly when did Kostopolous decide to raise his hands, raise his stick perpendicular to the ice, and drive Van Ryan's head and shoulders to the boards? Or was that Van Ryan's fault too?

A clean hit would have had Kostopolous turn as well, so that his shoulder (with stick down) made contact with Van Ryan's shoulder. Then, if Van Ryan turned back into the boards late it would have been shoulder to back. But no, Kostopoluous came in square to the boards looking to drive Van Ryan through the end boards - shoulder or head first, either way.

Wait 'til something like what happened to Bergeron happens to Koivu. I'll look forward to seeing your frame by frame analysis as to exactly when his career ended, and why he was at fault for being in the position he was.

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11-10-2008, 07:59 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by Cyrrus147 View Post
Kinda funny to see a hockey fan base calling the Habs a dirty team...coming from a team who got Ryan Hollweg in their lineup !
Include the players they used to have in their line up and used to cheer for.

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Old
11-10-2008, 08:11 AM
  #193
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I dont want to debate for hours so I made this. Kostopoulos is not to blame in this...plain and simple.
And what you've demonstrated, brillantly to say the least, prooves exactly my point that he has to be blame. When you have to dissect a sequence that is going full blast where in a matter of 1 second the guy is either on his side or with his back facing you....you don't go for the thunderous hit. That's all about the respect that should be in order in this league.

The only proof that this demonstration says is that Kostopoulos is not a dirty player and that he never wanted to send Van Ryn in the hospital....but to say that he's not to blame? If for some Van Ryn decided to put himself in a position to be hit, Kosto decided to put himself in a position to hit somebody illegally....

Anyway, we can go on for hours, it just that some people will need to understand that it cannot be black or white but in the end, if people try to avoid players that could end up being in vulnerable positions, we will have the respect we hope players would give to each other....

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11-10-2008, 08:27 AM
  #194
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The result was unfortunate. But how many times (especially after the Mat Carle hit) have we heard that players canít be expected to let up on routine plays? Responsibility goes 2 waysÖIf a player puts himself in a compromising position then he needs to be aware that he could get hurt. Just like if a player is skating around, leaning forward with his head down.

Iím sorry but what Kostopoulos did was a routine play that happens 100 times a game. Maybe 99 times out of 100, the d-man will curve inwards and go behind the net. The forechecking forward goes and hits the guy as heís turning behind the net. This happens ALL THE TIME. Furthermore, up until the last second, it looked like Van Ryn was going to do just that.

Itís unfortunate that this happened but just like when a player is skating around with his head down, you have to expect that this could happen when you turn at the last second. This is defense 101 and something I was told back in bantam when you first start playing with contact. When youíre a d-man, you donít turn your back when a guy is coming in to forecheck.

I mean come on. Whatís next? Should goalies dive head first for pucks ala DiPietro? If you get hurt on a play like that itís because you took an unnecessary risk. Players need to watch out for themselves first. You canít expect that opposing players will not hit you. You need to be more careful. And Kostopoulos should have been a little more careful tooÖBut the blame is not solely on him.

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11-10-2008, 08:31 AM
  #195
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lol waffle, everytime you post it looks like you're facepalming yourself.

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11-10-2008, 08:41 AM
  #196
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Great Post Z. I wish RDS or some other media would take the time to post that as well. When I first saw the hit, that is precisely what I saw, so I was certain someone in the media would be smart enough to point that out. So far its been pretty sad.

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11-10-2008, 09:24 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by rocketlives View Post
I'm not sure the disciplinary commitee will spend that much time looking at all these angles and analysing Kosto's intents frame by frame.

Any hit in the back of a player who is facing the boards is dangerous. What makes the intent to injure is the number of steps taken to gather speed, the force of the hit and whether the hitter left his feet to apply all his weight on the point of impact.

As in football, there should be in hockey such a thing as unnecessary roughness and intent to injure. Kosto was coming very fast and he seemed to have all his weight behind the hit as you can see by the position of one of his skates on frame #11.

The distance Van Ryn was from the board is also important. Lucic's hit against him where he broke the pane of glass in a recent game against the Bruins was probably much harder but Van Ryn was hit sideways and he was very close to the boards which is a less vulnerable position. Last night, Van Ryn was a few feet from the board when he was nailed and he was very vulnerable.

I think Kosto will be suspended at least 4 games. There is pressure on the league to be more severe when such incidents occur and Kostopoulos not being a superstar, they will lower the boom on him.
I think that if they conclude that TK had no intent, it was acse of angles egtting messed up, it would be gutsy of Colin Campbell to do so, as he has to believe that it was a split second timing thing. I'm not sure what would be accomplished by doing so as TK may get sacrificed in a lose the battle win the war type of thing.

The result matters, as much as we say it dhouldn't, messages have to be sent, even if this was a poor example, unfair to TK, imo, but life isn't always fair.

Campbell has a damned if you do, damned if you don't decision to make.

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11-10-2008, 09:48 AM
  #198
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I really really hope that people who don't see any problem with the Kosto hit don't see any problem with the Sauer hit on Kosty. If so, well, I don't agree but you are fair as you see the physical play as being part of the game and are ready to see some accidents happen.

But I believe that while players are becoming bigger and faster and while the rink is still the same size and the equipement is still rigid as it is, you would need to change the game as it is played unless we'll see a guy in wheelchair real soon or maybe even worst?

Responsabilities go both ways? Sure. But the responsability of the guy who happens to skate like the wind towards you with the only idea to annihilate is far more greater than the guy whose ideas are to retrieve the puck, check for some passing options and check for the madman coming fast behind him.....all within the same second. People also need to realize that it's probably an adaptation for some d-men that is harder to make, they need to realize that there's no more obstructions anymore and you will always have some heavy forecheck coming towards you without the possibility of seeing a teamates coming between you and the forechecker.

I'll say it again. The day the equipment go back to what it was before (I'm not talking 50 years ago...), the day where you won't look like Robocop, you might rethink about how hard you'll be giving your bodychecks. There still will be some physical play, but I believe it will be adapted to all the new factors of today's NHL.

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11-10-2008, 09:52 AM
  #199
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Because it was a Leaf player hurt, expect a suspension. If it were a player from Carolina, there would be no debate over this.

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11-10-2008, 10:02 AM
  #200
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Because it was a Leaf player hurt, expect a suspension. If it were a player from Carolina, there would be no debate over this.
Bad example Habs, as Weight's hit on Sutter was all over the sports papers/news.

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