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Recipe for FLA success - what should be done?

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11-09-2008, 04:55 AM
  #1
Tuco
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Recipe for FLA success - what should be done?

Hi all, I know we are constantly having this discussion in GDTs, but I think we have reached a point now, where pretty much everyone on the site is of the opinion that something more drastic should be done. Therefore, I thought a new thread is in place where we can share views and mold them as season goes forward. Mods, if you think it's not needed, please feel free to move my post where it fits.

I think in the last game thread many good opinions were given as basis for planning the future.

Starting from what we have now:
-The guys we have seem to be good enough, so that (provided we make a couple trades to improve the offense next off-season) they could keep competing for the playoffs in the next few years, but also they are too mediocre to deliver much more than that.
-In general the problem is not their trying or attitude, but lack of real top flight talent.
-DeBoer is not the problem, he just has not been given the tools to execute his strategy effectively, and now he seems a bit lost.
-Our offense is really bad, but the problem is that we cannot afford to weaken any position to improve another, since we are not that deep anywhere (except defense, but there Bouw will be gone).

So, these things lead me to think that a quick fix is either not available, or cannot be done without compromising other areas. Therefore we need to rebuild, and the first step is to get Tavares and likely also trade Bouw for as high picks as possible.
-I disagree with some posters about the presumption that whoever we draft is going to be a bust. I say this because our picks have not really been so great that they could become stars without good players around them. We need to get at least one or two real top talents to build around, good enough not to need top players to play with, and still be great.
-Then we can add the Hortons, Olesz's and Froliks into the mix.
-If we get Tavares next year, we could still benefit at least from Frolik and Matthias, also Olesz and Horton (if we want him around). This way there is a possibility to make the rebuild in a relatively short period of time. So - tank the season is my call.

And the financial climate in the next couple years will benefit the teams with lesser payrolls. I know this is a boring issue, but I also think it's important and, Cohen will for sure take it into account in his plans.

A couple things I really have not formed an opinion about yet are:
-Will/should Martin be given the task to lead the rebuild?
-Which (young) players should stay in this scenario and which should go for picks?
-How long would this route take before we would be in place to challenge for the playoffs again?

What do you think? What would be your plan?

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11-09-2008, 06:50 AM
  #2
Georgia Panther
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I said it before, I'll say it again. Cohen needs to hire a "Hockey Czar", ala Bill Parcells, and have him tear down the present Organization and build another one back up brick by brick. The damage is too deep, the atmosphere too poisonous to build upon what's in place.

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11-09-2008, 07:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
I said it before, I'll say it again. Cohen needs to hire a "Hockey Czar", ala Bill Parcells, and have him tear down the present Organization and build another one back up brick by brick. The damage is too deep, the atmosphere too poisonous to build upon what's in place.
Something like that or in lesser scale, Cohen should hire outside "consultant" to get ideas what to do, I'm sure he has done that before in his businesses.

JOL

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11-09-2008, 07:05 AM
  #4
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Honestly this off-season should fix our team. Zednik, Pelts, and Dvo are set to be FA's. We'll probably finish horribly and draft a top-10 player and screw his development up so...who knows.

**edit: -- posted by hoax 15 i'm at my friends house

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11-09-2008, 07:55 AM
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This team's problem isn't talent: they aren't the most talented team in the NHL but they have enough talent to compete every night.

The problem is the team's fragile psyche. They play well when they are winning. The moment they have give up a bad goal or lose a game they start to question themselves. If they manage to lose a couple of games in a row, then the wheels on the bus fall off. If you don't go into a game expecting to win at that level, you are going to lose. They are expecting to lose.

This organization is like a rotting stew. You can add nice ingredients to it, but it will still taste bad. The Roberts/Niewendyk signing was supposed to address that and failed rather miserably. The new firebrand coach was supposed to address that and so far has failed miserably. Adding a blue chip stud will likely fail in a similar manner.

Tough problem. It will probably take a change in ownership to turn things around.

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11-09-2008, 08:04 AM
  #6
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Finally there is some reason to be seen here. Yes the talent-base isnt quite there to get this team over the hump. Its gotta be blown up and put back together. I dont see many "Parcells"-type of guys in the NHL that can do what he's doing for the Dolphins. But if there is one, I agree, that is what it would take to turn the org around.

The question you asked about whether Martin should be given that job is valid. And the answer is a resounding NO. He felt the team was good enough this offseason and that means he's clearly not objective enough. He's made moves the last 3 yrs and its only caused the team to regress.

Also, if he ends up dealing JayBo (almost a formality now), he'll most likely target Hedman instead of Tavares. And honestly there would be nothing wrong with that depending on the return for Bouwmeester. But to not get Tavares I think would be a mistake, regardless.

Still it wont take one draft to rebuild the team. Its going to probably mean more suffering next season as well. After that, it should be possible to see a marked improvement.

I think the list of players in the entire org to keep is probably very short. I'd list them in the following order of need to keep:

Booth
Ballard
Frolik
Matthias
Repik
Ellerby
Robak
Markstrom
Weiss
Olesz

And I almost didnt put Olesz on that list because I question where he fits longterm. There's a list of guys that you probably cant do anything with at this point too like Allen (though I'd say keep him anyway). I like Weiss and there's no doubt about his value when he's on the ice but he may become expendable with Matthias prob a bigger option as 2nd line center for the future. And there are a few teams that would like Weiss as a 2nd line pivot.

But the list of guys I'd trade (not necessarily this season but in general) in order of value and easability:

Bouwmeester
Horton
Boynton
Zednik
McLean
McCardle
Dvorak
Kreps
Skrastins
Vokuon

There's probably one or 2 names (or more) on that list that people will not like. But the idea is to blow it up and rebuild from scratch. Bouw is going to leave via UFA at this point. Horton is a lazy player and his contract is affordable for the most part. Boynton, Zednik & McLean on the last yrs of their deals could be decent pickups at the deadline for a lot of teams looking for depth. Vokuon is a possibility in the offseason if another goalie could be acquired separately (maybe just sign an UFA like Rolosson as a stop-gap). As good as he is, he'll be valuable in trade and the assets he'd bring could help rebuild the team faster. Markstrom is going to be the guy in a few yrs and you really just need a stop-gap then.

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11-09-2008, 08:37 AM
  #7
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Martin's fired, and this team goes through another plethora of changes that could keep up out of the playoffs for more years. I don't think Martin's done a terrible job at all, the mindset here is the culprit.
Who's the Parcells guy we hire? Bowman's already been hired elsewhere, and Keenan, well...

I agree with Coolburn's list of guys who need to go. I don't think McLean matters much either way, though. I don't think Skrastins and Boynton hurt the team all that much, either. I wouldn't mind moving Vokoun for someone and then trying to get Pavelec, etc.

Bouw can likely go for a Vermetter or Jordan Staal. Perhaps something can also come back, dunno.
Horton should be dealt for a solid, young defenseman and perhaps a prospect.
Etc...

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11-09-2008, 10:11 AM
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The fans should be given GM powers.

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11-09-2008, 10:17 AM
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Something needs to be done. We're at rock bottom right now.

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11-09-2008, 10:31 AM
  #10
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
This way there is a possibility to make the rebuild in a relatively short period of time. So - tank the season is my call.
Yes, exactly. I hope we finish dead last, but we should not be holding a firesale at the deadline. Bouw will be traded, that much is a certainty now unless we pull of a miraculous turnaround. But in addition to him, we should only move Zed, McLean, Cullimore, Skrastins, Boynton, Dvorak and Murphy if possible. Maybe Anderson too.

We could get a couple scoring forwards or something like a forward and a 1st for Bouw. We could trade the 1st for another good roster player at the draft(i.e. Umberger). Then draft Tavares or Hedman. We really could rebound quickly depending on the moves we make. We just need some more scoring up front, and we are a playoff team. That's why we should not be dismantled.

Quote:
And the financial climate in the next couple years will benefit the teams with lesser payrolls. I know this is a boring issue, but I also think it's important and, Cohen will for sure take it into account in his plans.
I agree with you on this, and Cohen may not even have much of a choice in the matter. But it may benefit him over the next few years.

Quote:
-Will/should Martin be given the task to lead the rebuild?
I'm not going to get into the issue of whether or not he should, because I don't want to spark a 20 page debate. But I think him being given the task to rebuild(even though he is already in his 2nd year of his rebuild/re-shaping, whatever you want to call it)is a very good possibility, as Cohen may not even be able to afford to fire him. Martin's signed for 3 years after this, and then Cohen's going to go out and try to lure someone else to be the GM with another multi-year deal??? Hmmmm, I don't know about that one. We all know Cohen doesn't have the deepest pockets.


Quote:
-How long would this route take before we would be in place to challenge for the playoffs again?
Like I said, if we make the right moves, we could be a playoff team next year.

Take this for example:

Stillman-Horton-Higgins or Lupul(acquired in the Bouw trade)
Booth-Weiss-X(acquired with a 1st rounder gotten in the Bouw trade, or a UFA)
Olesz-Matthias-Frolik
Campbell-Kreps-Stewart

Ballard-Allen
Hedman-McCabe
Welch-Garrison/Ellerby

Vokoun
???(if Anderson leaves, we'll still have considerable cap space to sign a good backup)

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11-09-2008, 11:57 AM
  #11
Georgia Panther
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Interesting that some think it's all right for the Panthers to tank the rest of the season to get a higher draft pick but think it wrong that Jokinen allegedly tanked to get JM fired. Seems like the same mindset is behind both actions, to improve the Panthers as they see fit.

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11-09-2008, 12:20 PM
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Tuco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
Interesting that some think it's all right for the Panthers to tank the rest of the season to get a higher draft pick but think it wrong that Jokinen allegedly tanked to get JM fired. Seems like the same mindset is behind both actions, to improve the Panthers as they see fit.
Please, Joke is gone, just as he should be. Let's just leave it at that. I also think there is another thread about this.

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11-09-2008, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
Please, Joke is gone, just as he should be. Let's just leave it at that. I also think there is another thread about this.
Jokinen was really holding this team back. We had no change of getting the #1 pick with him onboard, and look at us go now!

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11-09-2008, 12:51 PM
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Tuco
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[QUOTE=MisterBouw;16236279]
Quote:
Yes, exactly. I hope we finish dead last, but we should not be holding a firesale at the deadline.
I agree with this up to the point that the really young guys should stay. Everybody else is fair game. Weiss should also stay IMO, he is a good back-stop 2nd line center in case Matthias doesn't pan out, or a great 3rd line center if Matthias reaches his potential. Also in some ways he is a guy to relate to when one thinks about the Panthers.
Quote:
We could get a couple scoring forwards or something like a forward and a 1st for Bouw. We could trade the 1st for another good roster player at the draft(i.e. Umberger). Then draft Tavares or Hedman. We really could rebound quickly depending on the moves we make. We just need some more scoring up front, and we are a playoff team. That's why we should not be dismantled.
A Philly type of rebound is in my mind aswell. But I definately think we should pick Tavares. Forwards mature quicker, and our forwards need something big to look up to. Trade Bouw for a 1st/2nd line forward and go for UFA 3rd/4th defensive d-man to play with McCabe. Then depending on other trades, trade or keep Horton. I don't know if he is a "mental" problem in the team, but if there is even a slight doubt - trade him. I also believe we could be a playoff team next year already if things go well, but it may take another year aswell, like Coolburn said.
Quote:
Martin's signed for 3 years after this, and then Cohen's going to go out and try to lure someone else to be the GM with another multi-year deal??? Hmmmm, I don't know about that one. We all know Cohen doesn't have the deepest pockets.
Yeah, I know. Like you say, this may be the reason he stays. Also, I don't know who could replace him, and some continuity is good. On the other hand (again referring to Coolburn), JM believed these guys are good enough, so it may be difficult for him to let go of that idea. Anyway, I'll just take it as a given that Martin stays, unless somebody has a better name to offer.
Quote:
Stillman-Horton-Higgins or Lupul(acquired in the Bouw trade)
Booth-Weiss-X(acquired with a 1st rounder gotten in the Bouw trade, or a UFA)
Olesz-Matthias-Frolik
Campbell-Kreps-Stewart

Ballard-Allen
Hedman-McCabe
Welch-Garrison/Ellerby

Vokoun
???(if Anderson leaves, we'll still have considerable cap space to sign a good backup)
I like these, except that put Tavares in there (on top 2 lines), and either trade Horton or move him back to the wing. Either keep Skrastins as 4th or sign an UFA.

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11-09-2008, 12:57 PM
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Only one answer on how to improve the team, hire a GM that has some vision and accountability. Unfortunately our brilliant owner committed long term to an unsuccesful Gm and now we are stuck with this mess for a while. All he can do now is trade Bouw, who's value is dropping every day (another martin blunder), cut some of the dead weight (all of his failed free agency signings), name a captain, and maybe the next time a former 30 goal scorer is available for absolutely nothing, take a chance and sign him.

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11-09-2008, 01:14 PM
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Laus723
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Gp...where'd anyone say "it was alright to tank?" Hmmm, I don't recall that. Pretty sure the majority of us are still cheering for this team. Pretty lame attempt to pop some of the posters here. Really lame!

Geez.

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11-09-2008, 01:45 PM
  #17
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Here is what I think needs to be done:

1. Get rid of JM & get a better GM

2. Trade J Bo in exchange for a better offense player... one who scores alot...

3. We need to stop fooling around & stop playing cocky...

4. Possibly get rid of Horton since he hasn't done much if at all nothing for us this season so far in exchange for another great offensive scorer...

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11-09-2008, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Gp...where'd anyone say "it was alright to tank?" Hmmm, I don't recall that. Pretty sure the majority of us are still cheering for this team. Pretty lame attempt to pop some of the posters here. Really lame!

Geez.
who's still cheering for this team? The only reason I'm still watching games is because I wasted 200 bucks on Center Ice. I was sitting here last night with my cousin (who is a Red Wings fan) and he had never watched a Panthers game before and he was absolutely shocked at what he was seeing. I tried to prepare him for it, but nothing can prepare you for what the Panthers look like each game.

We watched literally 10 minutes of the 3rd period and he kept asking, why is it that every time Phoenix enters the Panthers zone, it looks like everyone is scrambling and has no clue to make a transition pass, or win a battle, or clear the puck?? Its the same crap that all of use are questioning every........single......game, does nobody realize that there is clearly something wrong?? I just don't get how you lose 6 straight games and nothing changes!!!!!!!! What a frigan joke, I still can't believe I dedicate my time and money to this franchise.

One word: pathetic, everyone get used to it because I'm going to be using it a lot from now on, because it really sums up my opinion of the team and organization thus far this season.

Just wait until this coming Friday when the Wings come to town and absolutely destroy us.

You know what I just realized? Change has come to this franchise so many times in so many different ways and somehow it all results in the exact same thing: losses and disappointment. Recipe for success? I don't think there is one. What hasn't been done? Move the team maybe, I don't know, but what I do know is that nothing is going to change the failures this organizations has experienced and will continue to experience.

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11-09-2008, 02:06 PM
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VanMurph, Rattrick, Beezer, and myself are all the diehards fans still cheering for the team that I know of. That's what a diehard is.

While I'm still cheering for the team, it's frustrating to watch this team not play to it's potential. I think some moves need to happen in order to help turn things around.

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11-09-2008, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
VanMurph, Rattrick, Beezer, and myself are all the diehards fans still cheering for the team that I know of. That's what a diehard is.

While I'm still cheering for the team, it's frustrating to watch this team not play to it's potential. I think some moves need to happen in order to help turn things around.
So am I... you should know who I am Laus... I am part of the CB club...

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11-09-2008, 02:17 PM
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So am I..
Same here.
No matter how bad they are, I will always cheer for them.

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11-09-2008, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
I said it before, I'll say it again. Cohen needs to hire a "Hockey Czar", ala Bill Parcells, and have him tear down the present Organization and build another one back up brick by brick. The damage is too deep, the atmosphere too poisonous to build upon what's in place.
I am slowly starting to agree.

I love this team and will still watch them. I won't question anyone's "fanship" on these boards, but I think it's okay to discuss and criticize the team without losing your fan-dom. I don't think Martin is going to have enough time to re-do this team. The pressure to get into the playoffs is monumental right now, but we just don't have what it takes. I just don't see enough talent to get over the hump. We have a group of underachievers that's the culmination of years of bad drafting, poor development and horrific trades.

Asking Martin to do that in a couple years is a very difficult task if you don't have the wallet to sign some impact FAs. Instead you rely on guys like Peltonen, Zednik, Maclean, etc. to guide your team. Guys like Horton, Olesz and Weiss are good players, but they are no where from elite or top tier guys. I think Horton could possibly be a top tier guy but I don't see the drive out of him that necessary to be elite. I think Olesz/Weiss are good 2nd line players, but they aren't the kind of guys that lead you to a Cup.

Now we say Matthias and Frolik are going to be the ones and we just need to hold down the fort for them to development. There's no guarantee that either of those guys will be any different than the Horton, Weiss, and Olesz that we have right now. Frolik keeps whiffing on shots and hasn't scored a goal in 10 games, while Matthias is struggling in Rochester. You just can't bank on that given our draft history. I do like the last 2 years of drafts, but again, no guarantee with this organization that these guys will develop into top end players.

So you've got Pride's gut the whole organization. Might do some good, then again might put us back further. Then I think well, it just can't get much worse than this anyways so what's the difference?


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11-09-2008, 02:35 PM
  #23
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All I know is that no matter how big a fan I am, I will refuse to be content with losing, I just can't handle it for this long.

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11-09-2008, 02:37 PM
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All I know is that no matter how big a fan I am, I will refuse to be content with losing, I just can't handle it for this long.
Who's content with losing...?

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11-09-2008, 02:42 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
Interesting that some think it's all right for the Panthers to tank the rest of the season to get a higher draft pick but think it wrong that Jokinen allegedly tanked to get JM fired. Seems like the same mindset is behind both actions, to improve the Panthers as they see fit.
Quite a difference. For one, I am not in control of the Panthers. Two, I am not advocating that the Panthers purposely tank. I just hope they finish dead last. And three, what Jokinen supposedly did is totally unprofessional and he had no place to try to create a mutiny and wrestle power from JM. That's why his teammates all supposedly turned on him by the end, you just don't do that.

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