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Recipe for FLA success - what should be done?

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Old
11-10-2008, 07:46 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by ratmanfu View Post
for God's sake, Bruce friggin Boudreau had no fear demanding the best from the Caps disaster he inherited.
Boudreau had Ovechkin...

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11-10-2008, 07:59 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tuco View Post
GM job is a tough call. Scouts - easy one. Can't believe Luce still is able to hang onto his job.
You serious? Since Luce has been here we have actually been developing our young players the right way...

He came in 2004... Where his draft team picked Olesz(1/7) and Booth(2/53)..

2005... Kendall McArdle(1/20), still uncertain what he will turn into but he is fast as lightning, character guy, VERY similar to David Booth, actually quietly having good season in Rochester, 8 points and a plus player on a bad team... Decent goalies in Plante(2/32) and Foster(5/161)... In my eyes this was our worst draft since 04, but we were also shafted by getting the 29th pick.

2006... Frolik(1/10), looks like a good pick, Patrik Eliasesque when he finally starts to put his stick on the puck... Calla(3/73), Caruso(4/103), Lapoint(4/116)... any of those could be NHL players.

2007... Ellerby(1/10), probably the most surprising player for me at training camp, skates very similar to Bouw... Repik(2/40), could potentially be as good as Frolik... Dadonov(3/71), who knows, we could finally have a skilled russian on our hands... Rust (4/101), team USA's WJ 3rd line center, I see a little Mike Fisher here, I love kids that come out from under the Bear in Michigan, he could really be a good pick... and Gayduchenko(7/202) could be a great 7th round pick.

2008... Markstrom(2/31), so happy we got this guy, next superstar Swede goalie. I LOVE Robak and Comrie, such solid pickups for where we got them, both having great years in CHL. And Jenks is a real wildcard here, starting to score goals for Plymouth, was a young 18 year old for draft, could have been a late first rounder IMO. And even Bartkowski our last pick has been producing as a freshman at Ohio State.

So all in all, in the years he has been here we have had some pretty solid draft... And most importantly we haven't rushed 1 player he has drafted, with the exception of Olesz. He has done a great job in the draft, and that's his job... Not picking who to sign in the offseason or who to play.

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11-10-2008, 09:01 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Matthias4Prez View Post
You serious? Since Luce has been here we have actually been developing our young players the right way...

He came in 2004... Where his draft team picked Olesz(1/7) and Booth(2/53)..

2005... Kendall McArdle(1/20), still uncertain what he will turn into but he is fast as lightning, character guy, VERY similar to David Booth, actually quietly having good season in Rochester, 8 points and a plus player on a bad team... Decent goalies in Plante(2/32) and Foster(5/161)... In my eyes this was our worst draft since 04, but we were also shafted by getting the 29th pick.

2006... Frolik(1/10), looks like a good pick, Patrik Eliasesque when he finally starts to put his stick on the puck... Calla(3/73), Caruso(4/103), Lapoint(4/116)... any of those could be NHL players.

2007... Ellerby(1/10), probably the most surprising player for me at training camp, skates very similar to Bouw... Repik(2/40), could potentially be as good as Frolik... Dadonov(3/71), who knows, we could finally have a skilled russian on our hands... Rust (4/101), team USA's WJ 3rd line center, I see a little Mike Fisher here, I love kids that come out from under the Bear in Michigan, he could really be a good pick... and Gayduchenko(7/202) could be a great 7th round pick.

2008... Markstrom(2/31), so happy we got this guy, next superstar Swede goalie. I LOVE Robak and Comrie, such solid pickups for where we got them, both having great years in CHL. And Jenks is a real wildcard here, starting to score goals for Plymouth, was a young 18 year old for draft, could have been a late first rounder IMO. And even Bartkowski our last pick has been producing as a freshman at Ohio State.

So all in all, in the years he has been here we have had some pretty solid draft... And most importantly we haven't rushed 1 player he has drafted, with the exception of Olesz. He has done a great job in the draft, and that's his job... Not picking who to sign in the offseason or who to play.
So far, the only potentially (in the near future) significant player that Luce has drafted is Horton and Booth and Booth is the only one that wasn't a Top 3 Overall Pick. Olesz can't be considered a significant player at this point, only a good third liner. Your wrong that Luce came here in 2004, DQD hired him away from Tampa in July of 2002. He has run six drafts for the Panthers and drafting just one significant player that wasn't a top pick, and only two overall, in that time is a pretty sorry record, IMO.

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11-10-2008, 09:33 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Georgia Panther View Post
So far, the only potentially (in the near future) significant player that Luce has drafted is Horton and Booth and Booth is the only one that wasn't a Top 3 Overall Pick. Olesz can't be considered a significant player at this point, only a good third liner. Your wrong that Luce came here in 2004, DQD hired him away from Tampa in July of 2002. He has run six drafts for the Panthers and drafting just one significant player that wasn't a top pick, and only two overall, in that time is a pretty sorry record, IMO.
Ok, maybe your right about when he came in, I thought it was 04... But he wasn't running the show on draftday, it was Dudley... Dudley picked Taticek and Stewart... The first draft Luce ran was 04, and Olesz was a solid pick, he is still young, playoff teams need players like him. And do you want to know who was taken after Olesz...

1 8 Columbus Alexandre Picard
1 9 Anaheim Ladislav Smid
1 10 Atlanta Boris Valabik
1 11 Los Angeles Lauri Tukonen
1 12 Minnesota A.J. Thelen
1 13 Buffalo Drew Stafford
1 14 Edmonton Devan Dubnyk
1 15 Nashville Alexander Radulov
1 16 NY Islanders Petteri Nokelainen
1 17 St. Louis Marek Schwarz
1 18 Mtl. Canadiens Kyle Chipchura
1 19 NY Rangers Lauri Korpikoski
1 20 New Jersey Travis Zajac
1 21 Colorado Wojtek Wolski
1 22 San Jose Lukas Kaspar
1 23 Ottawa Andrej Meszaros
1 24 Calgary Kris Chucko
1 25 Edmonton Rob Schremp
1 26 Vancouver Cory Schneider
1 27 Washington Jeff Schultz
1 28 Dallas Mark Fistric
1 29 Washington Mike Green
1 30 Tampa Bay Andy Rogers

Players in bold are who I'd have taken over Olesz... but the players who were drafted after him weren't that great, I'd rather have Olesz in this not so deep draft, so I think he managed well. ESPECIALLY get Booth in the 2nd round, he would be 1st round for sure now.

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11-10-2008, 10:49 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Matthias4Prez View Post
Ok, maybe your right about when he came in, I thought it was 04... But he wasn't running the show on draftday, it was Dudley... Dudley picked Taticek and Stewart... The first draft Luce ran was 04, and Olesz was a solid pick, he is still young, playoff teams need players like him.
I started counting from 2002, and drafting Taticek was just brutal. Also drafting Horton - you have to get a real impact player when you hold the first overall pick. I have no problem with drafting Olesz at 7.

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11-10-2008, 02:19 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Matthias4Prez View Post
Boudreau had Ovechkin...
And Semin, and Backstrom, and Nylander, and Kozlov, and Green, and Clark. The Caps were a good team right from the start last season, they just weren't being coached the right way.

And I agree with your opinion on Luce. I was beginning to question him as well, but our last two drafts have been very good. I know most people have to see it to believe it, but I'm very confident about our last two drafts. He's definitely gotten back into my good graces.

And I agree about Olesz, when looking back at that list from 2004, there aren't many 1st rounders I'd take ahead of him who were picked after him. I remember the TSN analysts were saying we should have picked Tukonen instead and were lauding L.A., and now he's close to becoming a bust. And to get Booth is the 2nd round was definitely a steal. In 2005 we indeed did get screwed. The drafts after that, there's not enough time to judge. I think Frolik is going to be a good top 6 player for us for sure, I'm leaning towards wanting him sent down though. He needs more development time in the AHL. IMO Derrick LaPoint still has promise.

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11-10-2008, 02:48 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
I think Frolik is going to be a good top 6 player for us for sure, I'm leaning towards wanting him sent down though. He needs more development time in the AHL. IMO Derrick LaPoint still has promise.
I would love to see Frolik develop into a top-six forward; I think I mentioned earlier that I see a bit of Havlat in him (and not just because I like both players). My concern, though, is that his defensive awareness thus far exceeds his offensive awareness--which reminds me too much of Olesz (who has a very strong defensive game and an often-lacking offensive game).

To be clear, though, I think Olesz is one of our best (certainly among the most underrated) players, but there isn't a need for a twin, especially when scoring is our main problem.

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11-10-2008, 03:11 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by jal2155 View Post
I would love to see Frolik develop into a top-six forward; I think I mentioned earlier that I see a bit of Havlat in him (and not just because I like both players). My concern, though, is that his defensive awareness thus far exceeds his offensive awareness--which reminds me too much of Olesz (who has a very strong defensive game and an often-lacking offensive game).

To be clear, though, I think Olesz is one of our best (certainly among the most underrated) players, but there isn't a need for a twin, especially when scoring is our main problem.
I think that Frolik has a lot more offensive potential than Olesz

Frolik will need time though. Give him 2 more years, maybe 3.

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11-10-2008, 03:22 PM
  #59
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We need to trade Bo ASAP... there are 29 teams that are playing better than us... and none of them have a Bo... so we'll survive when we don't have him too.

And I've been watching him real close the last few games... he's looked very average. Both Ballard and Skratch have been better players.

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11-10-2008, 03:42 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by jal2155 View Post
I would love to see Frolik develop into a top-six forward; I think I mentioned earlier that I see a bit of Havlat in him (and not just because I like both players). My concern, though, is that his defensive awareness thus far exceeds his offensive awareness--which reminds me too much of Olesz (who has a very strong defensive game and an often-lacking offensive game).

To be clear, though, I think Olesz is one of our best (certainly among the most underrated) players, but there isn't a need for a twin, especially when scoring is our main problem.
Just because Frolik is defensively aware, doesn't mean he's going to become another Olesz, who I still think has not hit his peak yet BTW. That's a good thing, we should feel good about that. Many of the top forwards in the game nowadays are good defensively, that's just the way the NHL is now.

I think Frolik has very good offensive awareness, he just needs to get stronger and get more used to the pro game. He really can't do what he wants to do right now. Even though he's 20, he looks 17 right now on the ice.

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11-10-2008, 05:11 PM
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I see a bunch of guys you guys want FLD keep. Its a pretty nice core to look it, just sucks it hasn't been able to produce results. Moving Bouw, I think sets you guys up nice if done correctly.

I read before Welch is expected to be a top 4 guy etc etc. I havn't heard much about him since and reading through I see someone listed his as someone they'd keep in top 4 etc. Is he doing well? Is he over coming those injuries from last year etc?

Also, this is just a question since I liked Anthony Stewart since he was in Kingston. How is he doing this year? Has he improved enough to warrant a roster spot for good? I don't know he will ever be a top 6 guy but could he be a solid 7 to 9 type player?

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11-10-2008, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias4Prez View Post
Boudreau had Ovechkin...
A lot of good it did his predecessor.

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11-10-2008, 05:35 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
And Semin, and Backstrom, and Nylander, and Kozlov, and Green, and Clark. The Caps were a good team right from the start last season, they just weren't being coached the right way.
And I'll reiterate: a lot of good that did his predecessor.

To which my point is, if Bruce Boudreau can kick the Caps into gear, Pete can do the same with the Panthers. I'm not implying Pete isn't capable of it, I'm just hopeful he'll drop the kid gloves and get cracking on the morale issue here.

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11-10-2008, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by ratmanfu View Post
And I'll reiterate: a lot of good that did his predecessor.

To which my point is, if Bruce Boudreau can kick the Caps into gear, Pete can do the same with the Panthers. I'm not implying Pete isn't capable of it, I'm just hopeful he'll drop the kid gloves and get cracking on the morale issue here.
Well, he benched Boynton last night and played Welch instead. He said that the losses, especially against Phoenix, weren't directly Boynton's fault, Boynton didn't exactly help the team, either.

Step in the right direction towards accountability.

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11-10-2008, 06:04 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by SpItFiReZ View Post
I see a bunch of guys you guys want FLD keep. Its a pretty nice core to look it, just sucks it hasn't been able to produce results. Moving Bouw, I think sets you guys up nice if done correctly.

I read before Welch is expected to be a top 4 guy etc etc. I havn't heard much about him since and reading through I see someone listed his as someone they'd keep in top 4 etc. Is he doing well? Is he over coming those injuries from last year etc?

Also, this is just a question since I liked Anthony Stewart since he was in Kingston. How is he doing this year? Has he improved enough to warrant a roster spot for good? I don't know he will ever be a top 6 guy but could he be a solid 7 to 9 type player?
Welch seems to be recovered from his shoulder injury, but he hasn't played a lot this season, and IMO not because he isn't good enough to be a top 6 guy, but because our defense is stacked. And when he's been in the lineup, even though he's looked solid in limited action, DeBoer is riding the veterans right now, sometimes almost exclusively playing only 4 d-men in a game. I think if he was on a weaker blueline he'd be doing well right now, establishing himself as a good bottom pairing guy. IMO he has the talent to be a top 4 guy, he just needs experience. He may get that chance next season, this season idk how he's going to get into the lineup and play much unless we have a couple injuries.

Stewart had 5 points in preseason, led the team, but hasn't played much yet, dressing in only maybe 75% of our games so far if that. He has 1G, 2A so far which is kinda good I guess for the limited ice time he's seen, and only recently has DeBoer started giving him more minutes and playing him in the top 9. Again, I think he was just reluctant to play him early on and wanted to rely on the veterans. But some of our vets haven't produced, so Stewart's gotten more ice time as of late. I think he's definitely an NHL player, he just needs to keep working hard. Lately he's been good on the forecheck, hustling and being physical down low, crashing the net, etc. And he has to keep playing that way, he has to be a high energy type player to stick in the NHL IMO. As long as he does that, I can see him continuing to progress nicely into as you say an ideal 3rd line powerforward. Idk about top 6 right now, but he can definitely be a useful NHLer if he keeps it up.

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Originally Posted by ratmanfu View Post
And I'll reiterate: a lot of good that did his predecessor.

To which my point is, if Bruce Boudreau can kick the Caps into gear, Pete can do the same with the Panthers. I'm not implying Pete isn't capable of it, I'm just hopeful he'll drop the kid gloves and get cracking on the morale issue here.
My point was though, that Boudreau had a very talented offensive team handed over to him, that was being shackled by Hanlon's more conservative system. We don't have that kind of team. DeBoer has indeed opened it up here, but there is nothing to open up. I don't think it's a motivational issue at all, DeBoer has proved himself as a master motivator in the OHL, and I think he's done all he can do here to get the most out of these guys. For example, saying that he needed a career night out of someone to break our winless streak, and Booth decided to rise to the challenge and be that guy, and got a hattrick. And Andy had a really great game in net. That's great coaching, that's imagination.

Yeah, we've had a few stinkers, but every team does. Good teams can win even when they have those stinkers, we can't. We need to be the hardest working team in the NHL to win, and everytime we've won, we've done that. But just working hard doesn't mean you're going to win a lot of games. Good teams can beat lesser talented teams a lot of the time even when they're not working as hard, and when they do match the work ethic, they almost always win.

Boudreau simply changed the system in Washington, I don't think he's the second coming of Mike Keenan. Boudreau getting the Caps to win and DeBoer getting the Panthers to win involve two totally different aspects of coaching. For Boudreau, it's strategy. For DeBoer, it's motivation. Of course, there's strategy involved, but like I said, he needs his team to be the hardest working in the league to win.

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11-10-2008, 06:28 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Well, he benched Boynton last night and played Welch instead. He said that the losses, especially against Phoenix, weren't directly Boynton's fault, Boynton didn't exactly help the team, either.

Step in the right direction towards accountability.
I absolutely agree with you here.

I want Pete to treat this like it's his team, like he deserves to coach them. I think he was trying to feel things out a bit too much at the start, probably out of respect.

However, he wasn't brought in to coddle anyone. As long as he takes command here, benches players to remind them who they play for, and pushes this team to compete every night...I'll be ecstatic.

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11-10-2008, 06:47 PM
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A lot of good it did his predecessor.
Boudreau came from the Caps system. He was the coach of their minor league team. He knew a lot more about his situation when he started than DeBoer could know here.

Couple that with the fact that they HAD a minor league team, a much more stable GM/Management environment and AO and you can see it's apples to oranges.

I'm not excusing the Panthers' failures. Just saying you can't compare Washington's situation to ours.

Give DeBoer a bit more time to get his cat in a row. To decide who to ship out, what pairings work, etc.

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11-10-2008, 08:45 PM
  #68
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Well, he benched Boynton last night and played Welch instead. He said that the losses, especially against Phoenix, weren't directly Boynton's fault, Boynton didn't exactly help the team, either.

Step in the right direction towards accountability.
My only problem with benching Boynton is how Welch was played. The guy only played one shift in the game vs. the Ducks. One 58 second shift. Everything worked out for the best, as the Panthers got a win, but what the... unless Welch was injured and I missed it, dressing him as a defenseman to play just a single shift is extremely odd. With a team that is already racking up injuries, overworking players this early in the season can't be good in the long run.

Seriously, how can we as fans see any future for a player who the coach has shown next to no confidence in all year?

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11-10-2008, 09:33 PM
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My only problem with benching Boynton is how Welch was played. The guy only played one shift in the game vs. the Ducks. One 58 second shift. Everything worked out for the best, as the Panthers got a win, but what the... unless Welch was injured and I missed it, dressing him as a defenseman to play just a single shift is extremely odd. With a team that is already racking up injuries, overworking players this early in the season can't be good in the long run.

Seriously, how can we as fans see any future for a player who the coach has shown next to no confidence in all year?
He always does that. Playing Welch just one or two shifts a game sometimes, 5+ if he's lucky. I understand he wants to win, but you're right, we're starting to get into the point in the season now where Pete has to start spreading around the D's minutes more. The last thing we need is for Bouw to get injured due to being overworked. And in the long run, an exhausted top 4 or 5 group of d-men is going to hurt us a lot more than giving Cully, Boynton, or Welch less minutes than they should get. I know it's a tough situation for him, but really, the D can't keep going like this.

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11-11-2008, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
The great Petr Taticek.
You'll remember we traded that 1st (from the NYR) and our 3rd rd pick (to Calgary) for the honor and privilege of moving up one spot to draft Taticek.

Dudley said something about the organization's need for feng shui.

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11-11-2008, 04:19 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Welch seems to be recovered from his shoulder injury, but he hasn't played a lot this season, and IMO not because he isn't good enough to be a top 6 guy, but because our defense is stacked. And when he's been in the lineup, even though he's looked solid in limited action, DeBoer is riding the veterans right now, sometimes almost exclusively playing only 4 d-men in a game. I think if he was on a weaker blueline he'd be doing well right now, establishing himself as a good bottom pairing guy. IMO he has the talent to be a top 4 guy, he just needs experience. He may get that chance next season, this season idk how he's going to get into the lineup and play much unless we have a couple injuries.
Yes, Welch could one day be a top 4 d-man. However, in my opinion we cannot make the mistake again that we trust these could be -guys. We need to stabilize our top 4 by either bringing in a defensive top 4 guy or sticking with Skrastins. Welch is a 5th - 6th d-man next year.

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11-11-2008, 04:28 PM
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Yes, Welch could one day be a top 4 d-man. However, in my opinion we cannot make the mistake again that we trust these could be -guys. We need to stabilize our top 4 by either bringing in a defensive top 4 guy or sticking with Skrastins. Welch is a 5th - 6th d-man next year.
I totally agree.

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11-11-2008, 05:52 PM
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I wouldn't say that it's as simple as this, but the main question that you need to ask yourselves if you're the Panthers GM is whether you would consider trading your first rounder for '09. That pick will be coveted by every team in this league.

In my mind, you either keep your pick (and consider trading Stillman and other vets) or you trade your pick for someone younger than 30 that can help you now. Scenario A is give up on this year and possibly next year, Scenario B is try to make the playoffs this year and next.

Depends on who is available, depends on how deep your prospect farm is.

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11-11-2008, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by thrillhous View Post
I wouldn't say that it's as simple as this, but the main question that you need to ask yourselves if you're the Panthers GM is whether you would consider trading your first rounder for '09. That pick will be coveted by every team in this league.

In my mind, you either keep your pick (and consider trading Stillman and other vets) or you trade your pick for someone younger than 30 that can help you now. Scenario A is give up on this year and possibly next year, Scenario B is try to make the playoffs this year and next.

Depends on who is available, depends on how deep your prospect farm is.
I'm pretty sure Bouwmeester, a second round pick, and a depth player (say McLean) can get you a very solid return. Excuse my insistence on this, but a player like Havlat is certainly within reason; in fact, we should be able to get a promising prospect in return as well (given the age disparity, the Blackhawks' improving performance--and thus the need for a grinding/depth player, like McLean). Besides, the Blackhawks already have great offensive skill, with Toews and Kane up front; and I'm sure they won't complain about having Bouwmeester paired with Seabrook.

Another thought: a sign-and-deal with the Red Wings with Zetterberg coming our way, since the Wings are having trouble signing him, and they should start thinking of a replacement for Lidstrom (who is already 38).


Last edited by jal2155: 11-11-2008 at 06:07 PM.
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11-11-2008, 06:45 PM
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Gaebriel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
The last thing we need is for Bouw to get injured due to being overworked.
Oh god, don't even say that. A season ending injury to Bouwmeester would **** this franchise so hard.

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