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Recipe for FLA success - what should be done?

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Old
11-11-2008, 07:07 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Welch seems to be recovered from his shoulder injury, but he hasn't played a lot this season, and IMO not because he isn't good enough to be a top 6 guy, but because our defense is stacked. And when he's been in the lineup, even though he's looked solid in limited action, DeBoer is riding the veterans right now, sometimes almost exclusively playing only 4 d-men in a game. I think if he was on a weaker blueline he'd be doing well right now, establishing himself as a good bottom pairing guy. IMO he has the talent to be a top 4 guy, he just needs experience. He may get that chance next season, this season idk how he's going to get into the lineup and play much unless we have a couple injuries.

Stewart had 5 points in preseason, led the team, but hasn't played much yet, dressing in only maybe 75% of our games so far if that. He has 1G, 2A so far which is kinda good I guess for the limited ice time he's seen, and only recently has DeBoer started giving him more minutes and playing him in the top 9. Again, I think he was just reluctant to play him early on and wanted to rely on the veterans. But some of our vets haven't produced, so Stewart's gotten more ice time as of late. I think he's definitely an NHL player, he just needs to keep working hard. Lately he's been good on the forecheck, hustling and being physical down low, crashing the net, etc. And he has to keep playing that way, he has to be a high energy type player to stick in the NHL IMO. As long as he does that, I can see him continuing to progress nicely into as you say an ideal 3rd line powerforward. Idk about top 6 right now, but he can definitely be a useful NHLer if he keeps it up.
I agree with you on Stewart, he will start seeing more ice time because he is playing the way he should play, physical. If it means he is a fourth line energy guy or a first line player, like a milan lucic, will depend on him. He can't be getting fancy with the puck, he needs to dump it in and use his body... glad he is finally getting some serious ice time, lets see what he can do with it...

As for Welch, im undecided on him... to me for every good play he makes, there is a bad play to follow, and when he has been on the ice this season there are always scoring chances... I'd say I was pretty high on him coming into the season, but he has taken a little fall in my eyes... Wish he had a 2-way and could go play in Rochester.

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11-11-2008, 07:10 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by jal2155 View Post
I'm pretty sure Bouwmeester, a second round pick, and a depth player (say McLean) can get you a very solid return. Excuse my insistence on this, but a player like Havlat is certainly within reason; in fact, we should be able to get a promising prospect in return as well (given the age disparity, the Blackhawks' improving performance--and thus the need for a grinding/depth player, like McLean). Besides, the Blackhawks already have great offensive skill, with Toews and Kane up front; and I'm sure they won't complain about having Bouwmeester paired with Seabrook.

Another thought: a sign-and-deal with the Red Wings with Zetterberg coming our way, since the Wings are having trouble signing him, and they should start thinking of a replacement for Lidstrom (who is already 38).
That would put a big smile on my face.

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11-11-2008, 07:22 PM
  #78
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That would put a big smile on my face.
That would be a great trade.

My only question is, since the Red Wings are going for another Stanley Cup run, why would they trade Zetterberg this season?

Granted Jay would help them out, but, would that overcome to loss of Zetterberg?

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11-11-2008, 07:41 PM
  #79
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I wouldn't say that it's as simple as this, but the main question that you need to ask yourselves if you're the Panthers GM is whether you would consider trading your first rounder for '09. That pick will be coveted by every team in this league.

In my mind, you either keep your pick (and consider trading Stillman and other vets) or you trade your pick for someone younger than 30 that can help you now. Scenario A is give up on this year and possibly next year, Scenario B is try to make the playoffs this year and next.

Depends on who is available, depends on how deep your prospect farm is.
It depends on whether or not Martin is feeling pressure to save his job. Our owner Alan Cohen just signed him to a 4 year extension this summer, so he's got 4 years left after this one, and our owner doesn't have the deepest pockets. No matter how bad we finish, Cohen might just simply not be able to afford to fire him.

From what I've heard, lately Cohen has let it be known to the fans that he's very adamant about not sacrificing the future for quick fixes. If I'm not mistaken, he said at the last STH meeting after the season in the spring that he wants to build the team from within that will become a consistent contender for years into the future. His giving Martin a 4 year extension not long after that meeting seems to back up his stance. If he was still unsure about Martin and his direction, then he wouldn't have signed him for that long, I'd suspect. It seems to me that he's willing to be patient with Martin. He gave up on Dudley's rebuild plan 2 years in, which may have set this team back years, and seems he doesn't want to repeat that mistake.

Now, saying that, I'm sure he didn't envision a lottery pick finish, which IMO is a very real possibility unless a significant change is made. And will he push Martin to make a big change, even if it means giving up our 1st, or will he continue to be patient with the building process and not allow Martin to trade the 1st? I'd like to think he wouldn't allow it. I want the Panthers to make the playoffs as much as anybody else, but our playoff chances look pretty bleak right now, and I don't think anybody short of a huge star on offense is going to change that. Now, would any team trade a big star before or in his prime signed longterm to us for our 1st? Idk, I don't think they would, and that's what I'd want in return. Our prospect pool isn't strong enough to take a hit like that without bringing back that kind of player in return. No short term band-aids. If we're going to suck, then I want to keep this pick, and hopefully we finish bad enough to draft JT or Hedman. And hopefully Cohen sees things the same way I do. It's better to miss the playoffs for one more year, grab a huge stud prospect that you'll have for a long time to build around, get a good return for Jay, and go into next year with better talent than we have this year, that can legitimately challenge for a playoff spot. If we screw up and trading the 1st doesn't help us reach the playoffs, then it'll be a colossal failure and we'll be screwed for a really long time. Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take a step forward.

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11-11-2008, 10:36 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
It depends on whether or not Martin is feeling pressure to save his job. Our owner Alan Cohen just signed him to a 4 year extension this summer, so he's got 4 years left after this one, and our owner doesn't have the deepest pockets. No matter how bad we finish, Cohen might just simply not be able to afford to fire him.

From what I've heard, lately Cohen has let it be known to the fans that he's very adamant about not sacrificing the future for quick fixes. If I'm not mistaken, he said at the last STH meeting after the season in the spring that he wants to build the team from within that will become a consistent contender for years into the future. His giving Martin a 4 year extension not long after that meeting seems to back up his stance. If he was still unsure about Martin and his direction, then he wouldn't have signed him for that long, I'd suspect. It seems to me that he's willing to be patient with Martin. He gave up on Dudley's rebuild plan 2 years in, which may have set this team back years, and seems he doesn't want to repeat that mistake.

Now, saying that, I'm sure he didn't envision a lottery pick finish, which IMO is a very real possibility unless a significant change is made. And will he push Martin to make a big change, even if it means giving up our 1st, or will he continue to be patient with the building process and not allow Martin to trade the 1st? I'd like to think he wouldn't allow it. I want the Panthers to make the playoffs as much as anybody else, but our playoff chances look pretty bleak right now, and I don't think anybody short of a huge star on offense is going to change that. Now, would any team trade a big star before or in his prime signed longterm to us for our 1st? Idk, I don't think they would, and that's what I'd want in return. Our prospect pool isn't strong enough to take a hit like that without bringing back that kind of player in return. No short term band-aids. If we're going to suck, then I want to keep this pick, and hopefully we finish bad enough to draft JT or Hedman. And hopefully Cohen sees things the same way I do. It's better to miss the playoffs for one more year, grab a huge stud prospect that you'll have for a long time to build around, get a good return for Jay, and go into next year with better talent than we have this year, that can legitimately challenge for a playoff spot. If we screw up and trading the 1st doesn't help us reach the playoffs, then it'll be a colossal failure and we'll be screwed for a really long time. Sometimes you have to take a step back in order to take a step forward.
This seems like the right analysis. On paper this team should be no worse than 10th in the conference but if things don't turn around by Christmas you've got to think that Martin will consider moving some guys earlier than anticipated.

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11-12-2008, 08:14 AM
  #81
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I'd honestly tank this season, trade Jay for a stud forward prospect and try to draft JT or Hedman. On top of that, we'd have a lot of money in free agency next year and we wouldn't really be sacrificing our youth. If we did this, I could see us making the playoffs last year -- especially if we draft Tavares because we really lack a playmaker and/or sniper on offense.

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11-12-2008, 08:59 AM
  #82
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MisterBouw is right here I think. I also don't realistically see a scenario where we would trade our 1st. Of course, I'm thinking that we get a number 1-2 pick. After that, I don't know how valuable the next guys are.

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11-12-2008, 11:15 AM
  #83
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The Panthers are retarded. 3 years ago they had a:

Franchise Goalie
1st Line Center
Franchise Defensemen

The Franchise Goalie was traded for an injury prone power forward, who was then traded for a center prospect!
The 1st line center was traded for two defensmen.!
And the Franchise Defensemen will be traded for a center!

Your Florida Panthers, the only team whose rebuilding plan includes trading away young established players. Not only were Luongo and Jokinen traded, but they were alienated and villified by the organization so that trading them could be justified to the media.

Losing is fine as long as the organization is building towards something. The Kings and Blackhawks have sucked for nearly as long as the Panthers, but they drafted well..did not make as many stupid moves and now they have Kopitar, Kane, Toews and a brighter future than the Panthers have.

Its been a conspiracy of stupidity since 2000. Clearly, there is something wrong with upper management. Look at Jokinen's interview(w/ Steve Gorten) and Niewendyk leaving the organization last year. Free Agents don't want to sign here, because they want to win. Fans don't cheer because the team is losing. Its no wonder that players thrive when traded away from here. This organization can't do anything right.

The fans have heard same line for the past 3 years: "If the young players step up, the Panthers will make the playoffs." The organization is still waiting for this happen. Part of the problem is the presumption that Horton, Weiss, and Olesz can carry the franchise. The truth is that they are great complementary players, but are not good enough to drive the Panthers into the playoffs. (Aside: the only time Weiss and Horton carried the team was when playing with Booth.)

Weiss is a good 2nd line center or a great 3rd line center.

Olesz is a fantastic shut down forward, would be great for shut down 3rd line. Dvorak-Mclean-Olesz would be a great defensive 3rd line.

Horton needs to play with at elite playmaker to score. He reminds of Glen Murray at this point.

Maybe placing unfair expectations on players is the problem:

Luongo should never allow a bad goal, and win us every game single handedly and the team will make the playoffs.

Jokinen should score 100 pts every season and the team will make the playoffs..

Bouwmeester should play 40 minutes a night, shut down the other teams 1st line and score 20 goals a year and the team will make the playoffs.

Horton will become a 50 G scorer and the team will make the playoffs.

I know its hyperbole but my point is this: If you place unreachable expectations on players, it then becomes easy to shift blame to them when expectations are not met. The next step is trading them so you don't lose your job.

The Panthers should be bought my Mark Cuban or contracted.

I'm sick of this ****.

GO PANTHERS!


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11-12-2008, 11:26 AM
  #84
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HAJ, I do agree with a lot of what you said. However, do consider that is a slight element of bad luck in there. The years we were really bad and got good picks we ended up with:

Weiss
Bouwmeester
Horton

In recent years, players like Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, Toews and Kane came out. Offensively, Weiss and Horton are nothing close to these guys. It sucks... If we were bad those years, we'd have a great teams now.

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11-12-2008, 12:01 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
HAJ, I do agree with a lot of what you said. However, do consider that is a slight element of bad luck in there. The years we were really bad and got good picks we ended up with:

Weiss
Bouwmeester
Horton

In recent years, players like Ovechkin, Malkin, Crosby, Toews and Kane came out. Offensively, Weiss and Horton are nothing close to these guys. It sucks... If we were bad those years, we'd have a great teams now.
Were we really just unlucky, or did we draft poorly? Who else could've we had each year 2001-2003?

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11-12-2008, 12:09 PM
  #86
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Were we really just unlucky, or did we draft poorly? Who else could've we had each year 2001-2003?
Without looking back and knowing what we know now (in other words, we weren't gonna pick a guy who went in the 2nd round with our top 10 pick), I don't think we really drafted poorly.

2001
Hemsky went 13th overall, but no way would any team have drafted him 4th.

2002
Bouwmeester was definitely the best pick -- although we are sure to lose him, he was the best player to pick because we needed a defenseman. Could have possibly picked Nash, but I think a defenseman had to be drafted there.

2003
Should have picked Staal or Vanek.

That's not to say we haven't made mistakes drafting. Booth is the only non-first rounder who has done well in the NHL. The Taticek pick in 2002 was horrible. Semin could have been picked there.

In 2001-2003 the only offensive player that are anywhere close to the ones I've listed who have come since is Kovalchuk.

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11-12-2008, 12:22 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
Without looking back and knowing what we know now (in other words, we weren't gonna pick a guy who went in the 2nd round with our top 10 pick), I don't think we really drafted poorly.

2001
Hemsky went 13th overall, but no way would any team have drafted him 4th.

2002
Bouwmeester was definitely the best pick -- although we are sure to lose him, he was the best player to pick because we needed a defenseman. Could have possibly picked Nash, but I think a defenseman had to be drafted there.

2003
Should have picked Staal or Vanek.

That's not to say we haven't made mistakes drafting. Booth is the only non-first rounder who has done well in the NHL. The Taticek pick in 2002 was horrible. Semin could have been picked there.

In 2001-2003 the only offensive player that are anywhere close to the ones I've listed who have come since is Kovalchuk.
Thanks Rattrick. I agree with you. 2003 was really the only year (besides Taticek) we could've done better, but the improvement would've been meaningful if we'd drafted Staal instead of Horton (I don't think Vanek was quite up there then).

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11-12-2008, 12:25 PM
  #88
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Thanks Rattrick. I agree with you. 2003 was really the only year (besides Taticek) we could've done better, but the improvement would've been meaningful if we'd drafted Staal instead of Horton (I don't think Vanek was quite up there then).
Honestly, I think it may have made some difference. Staal plays with intensity and fire, Horton plays like he wears a skirt on his days off. Granted, Staal dives, but I guess that's his way of doing anything he can to win the game for his team.

Vanek wasn't far behind that year. He was considered to be the player with the best goal scoring abilities if my memory serves me correctly. I actually went to the draft that year.

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11-12-2008, 12:58 PM
  #89
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Honestly, I think it may have made some difference. Staal plays with intensity and fire, Horton plays like he wears a skirt on his days off. Granted, Staal dives, but I guess that's his way of doing anything he can to win the game for his team.

Vanek wasn't far behind that year. He was considered to be the player with the best goal scoring abilities if my memory serves me correctly. I actually went to the draft that year.
Oh, you did? That's great, I've never been there. Is there any action, or is it pretty boring generally?

About Vanek: I kind of remember only thinking about Horton, Staal and (was it) Fleury. Vanek was in the next group (4-7), in my mind he was anyway.

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11-12-2008, 01:01 PM
  #90
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Oh, you did? That's great, I've never been there. Is there any action, or is it pretty boring generally?

About Vanek: I kind of remember only thinking about Horton, Staal and (was it) Fleury. Vanek was in the next group (4-7), in my mind he was anyway.
They're not that exciting. I enjoy them a lot, but most people wouldn't. I went with three other friends and they all wanted to leave before I did so it wasn't that exciting for them at least. We did get to meet Horton though.

I think it is fair to say that Vanek was in the next step of players, but his goal scoring abilities made him an exciting possibility. At least that's how I remember it being perceived at the time (trying not to use todays knowledge).

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11-12-2008, 01:46 PM
  #91
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Vanek was considered a risk, very boom/bust. I forget the exact rankings, but the 3 players who were considered the first tier of the draft were Fleury, Staal, and Horton. Zherdev was considered the only one in the second tier that could break into the top 3, if I remember correctly.

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11-12-2008, 01:50 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Rattrick View Post
2001
Hemsky went 13th overall, but no way would any team have drafted him 4th.
The Panthers could also have had Mikko Koivu, who went 6th.

Quite a few NHLers in that draft, but no one clearly above Weiss other than Koivu in the first round. Could have had Mike Cammalleri, who went 49th. Brenden Bell went 65th. Patrick Sharp went 95th. Christian Ehrhoff went 106th. Jussi Jokinen went 192nd. Marek Svatos went 227th.

There's plenty of other fair to middling NHLers in that draft, but these are the only ones that in my opinion could have arguably been better picks than Weiss, though many took longer to develop. Keep in mind most other teams also passed them over. So it's hard to fault Panthers scouting - this was a weak draft. I just take it as an example for those that fault Panthers scouting, since I don't want to go through all of them.

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11-12-2008, 01:56 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Race against NINE View Post
The Panthers could also have had Mikko Koivu, who went 6th.

Quite a few NHLers in that draft, but no one clearly above Weiss other than Koivu in the first round. Could have had Mike Cammalleri, who went 49th. Brenden Bell went 65th. Patrick Sharp went 95th. Christian Ehrhoff went 106th. Jussi Jokinen went 192nd. Marek Svatos went 227th.

There's plenty of other fair to middling NHLers in that draft, but these are the only ones that in my opinion could have arguably been better picks than Weiss, though many took longer to develop. Keep in mind most other teams also passed them over. So it's hard to fault Panthers scouting - this was a weak draft. I just take it as an example for those that fault Panthers scouting, since I don't want to go through all of them.
Like I was saying, I won't look at who was drafted in the later rounds that we "could have" picked because every team has those every year. I was more looking at who at the time could have possibly been picked. Koivu for example, no team in the NHL would have picked him at #4 with Weiss on the board. That's what I was saying with Hemsky as well.

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11-12-2008, 01:58 PM
  #94
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Like I was saying, I won't look at who was drafted in the later rounds that we "could have" picked because every team has those every year. I was more looking at who at the time could have possibly been picked. Koivu for example, no team in the NHL would have picked him at #4 with Weiss on the board. That's what I was saying with Hemsky as well.
Ah. Well, at least we didn't pick Svitov at #3, like a certain other team we're facing tonight

Hmm...add Hemsky to my list - didn't realize he's been so good.

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11-12-2008, 02:20 PM
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The Panthers don't draft poorly. They simply are abysmal at player development. Even our best drafted player, Bouwmeester, has been somewhat of an underachiever (and it's the organization that's to blame - not Bouw). If Staal were a Panther, I suspect we would all be wishing we had drafted Horton.

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11-12-2008, 02:25 PM
  #96
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The Panthers don't draft poorly. They simply are abysmal at player development. Even our best drafted player, Bouwmeester, has been somewhat of an underachiever (and it's the organization that's to blame - not Bouw). If Staal were a Panther, I suspect we would all be wishing we had drafted Horton.
Why are the Panthers bad at player development ? What do clubs like the Sabres and Red Wings do differently ?

Is Froliks development being ruined ? Should he be in the AHL getting 25 minutes a game ?

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11-12-2008, 03:02 PM
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Is Froliks development being ruined ? Should he be in the AHL getting 25 minutes a game ?
Yes, he should.

The Panthers (not as much in recent years) have rushed players into the NHL which hasn't done well for their development.

Weiss, Bouwmeester, Horton and Olesz all could have used some time in the minors if you ask me.

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11-12-2008, 04:01 PM
  #98
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Yes, he should.

The Panthers (not as much in recent years) have rushed players into the NHL which hasn't done well for their development.

Weiss, Bouwmeester, Horton and Olesz all could have used some time in the minors if you ask me.
These players have all suffered from lack of proper NHL devleopment not only form a skill set but also from maturity. Possibly why Horton is lazy.

Why are the Devils and Wings so successful? None of their players EVER goes straight to the NHL.

Remember when Keenan was coaching and he felt that Weiss wasn't ready and had him sent back down. Then Dudley replaces Keenan behind the bench, recalls Weiss then figures out that Keenan was right and sends Weiss back.

It's blunders like this that have set this organization back.

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11-12-2008, 04:45 PM
  #99
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I think it's JM, I mean I know with some of the drafts,where he wasn't here,it wasn't his fault, but look at Ottawa, when Martin was there, a lot of their talent was held back,and once he left,that team flourished.
I wouldn't mind a trade of Bou to a team such as Pitt for Stall and a draft pick, because Stall will bring the team more scoring that we are lacking and I think our Dfense will still be okay without Bo. Maybe Horton needs a guy like Stall, or a real impact player to help pull Hortons lazy ars to play up to his potential. If that's not the case, I say trade Horton for a player with the same talents as himself, albei it may be a lateral move,but if we get someone with slightly less potential,but tons more heart, I think it'll help the chemistry on the team.
I don't know about blowing the season to get Taverse only because #1, u never know if we'll win the lotto and get the 1st pick, #2, will he start right away on the team? Is he going to spend time in the minors,because if he starts in the minors, we'll still be in the same situation as right now,unless we get some good UFAs in the offseason. Zed,Dvo,Pelt and Murphy should be gone by end of the season,so that opens up a lot of roster spots. I like Mclean,Boynton,and Cully because they play with heart and determination and should be a part of the core group we keep together.

I like Boynton,Skrats,and Cully and I think Ellerby would make the team, with Allen,Ballard,and McCabe, our defense looks pretty solid.

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11-12-2008, 04:53 PM
  #100
angry_treefrog
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haj View Post
Why are the Panthers bad at player development ? What do clubs like the Sabres and Red Wings do differently ?

Is Froliks development being ruined ? Should he be in the AHL getting 25 minutes a game ?
The Red Wings have a system. They draft players that fit that system. They train them at the minor league level to play that system. You get a confident, skilled group of young players ready to fit in like cogs in a machine.

The Panthers (until 2005) drafted players and throw them on the NHL roster to experience bone crushing defeat after defeat. What you get is a ruined, demoralized pool of young players ready to fold.

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