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Recipe for FLA success - what should be done?

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Old
11-12-2008, 05:56 PM
  #101
Laus723
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JM also helped take Ottawa out of th duldrums and helped them become that powerhouse. I mean, they've not won the Cup since he left and were a solid team while he was there.

Spezza's the ony player I remember him "holding back," but that seems to have helped him quite a bit.

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11-12-2008, 08:31 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Hit Somebody View Post
These players have all suffered from lack of proper NHL devleopment not only form a skill set but also from maturity. Possibly why Horton is lazy.

Why are the Devils and Wings so successful? None of their players EVER goes straight to the NHL.

Remember when Keenan was coaching and he felt that Weiss wasn't ready and had him sent back down. Then Dudley replaces Keenan behind the bench, recalls Weiss then figures out that Keenan was right and sends Weiss back.

It's blunders like this that have set this organization back.
Actually, Keenan wanted to send Weiss back to juniors, but Dudley was GM and vetoed the decision (of which Keenan had already notified Weiss).

And Weiss and Horton (and Bouwmeester I think) all did spend time in the minors - during the lockout season. Unfortunately, Keenan was in charge then and was undermining the relationship in San Antonio in order to break the affiliation (Cohen involved?) and the year was wasted for the Panthers' prospects.

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11-12-2008, 09:15 PM
  #103
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Im happy with the way Martin has built this team from nothing to at least something. Even with that being said though, should we make a run at Burke? Burnside has a list of teams that should be in Burke sweepstakes, and we are one of them. He more than likely will go to Toronto, but I would like Cohen to make a call and see what interest is there. The thing is though, there probably is none since Martin got that extension just this past offseason.

Another thing...GAWD do I hate to compare 80+ games to 400+ games, but should Martin see if there is any interest in Vokoun? Tomas is a top 10 goalie in the league, but I think Anderson is quite good as well. I think he is a more poised goaltender, and is not as overly aggressive as Vokoun is, which sometimes gets him in trouble. I think Vokoun could bring us a big return, and even though Id want him to stay, its just a thought.

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11-13-2008, 11:34 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
Im happy with the way Martin has built this team from nothing to at least something. Even with that being said though, should we make a run at Burke? Burnside has a list of teams that should be in Burke sweepstakes, and we are one of them. He more than likely will go to Toronto, but I would like Cohen to make a call and see what interest is there. The thing is though, there probably is none since Martin got that extension just this past offseason.

Another thing...GAWD do I hate to compare 80+ games to 400+ games, but should Martin see if there is any interest in Vokoun? Tomas is a top 10 goalie in the league, but I think Anderson is quite good as well. I think he is a more poised goaltender, and is not as overly aggressive as Vokoun is, which sometimes gets him in trouble. I think Vokoun could bring us a big return, and even though Id want him to stay, its just a thought.
Burke? I don't know if Cohen has the money, nor do I understand why Burke would choose us.

Anderson is not a number one goalie. Don't get carried away by just a couple wins. He is a very good back up though.

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11-13-2008, 11:59 AM
  #105
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Burke? I don't know if Cohen has the money, nor do I understand why Burke would choose us.

Anderson is not a number one goalie. Don't get carried away by just a couple wins. He is a very good back up though.
How do you know he's not a number one goalie?

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11-13-2008, 12:01 PM
  #106
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How do you know he's not a number one goalie?
He's never had that kind of workload before.

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11-13-2008, 12:05 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
How do you know he's not a number one goalie?
Ok, fair enough. I don't know it. But I also don't want to be the one to find out if he is. Unnecessary risk when we have Vokoun who has shown he can get it done.

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11-13-2008, 12:32 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
Im happy with the way Martin has built this team from nothing to at least something. Even with that being said though, should we make a run at Burke? Burnside has a list of teams that should be in Burke sweepstakes, and we are one of them. He more than likely will go to Toronto, but I would like Cohen to make a call and see what interest is there. The thing is though, there probably is none since Martin got that extension just this past offseason.

Another thing...GAWD do I hate to compare 80+ games to 400+ games, but should Martin see if there is any interest in Vokoun? Tomas is a top 10 goalie in the league, but I think Anderson is quite good as well. I think he is a more poised goaltender, and is not as overly aggressive as Vokoun is, which sometimes gets him in trouble. I think Vokoun could bring us a big return, and even though Id want him to stay, its just a thought.
I DO NOT want Burke coming to this franchise. If he does, we can pretty much kiss Martin's hard work goodbye.

Burke will trade all our draft picks and prospects that Martin has been building over the last couple of seasons. Sure he could be a quick fix but we want to be good for years to come. This guy is not the answer.

And regards to Andy, I love the guy, but it's still way to early for us to jump the gun on moving Vokoun. IMO, having a goalie tandem as good as this is a problem that most teams in the NHL would love to have, so I see no reason in moving either if both can be a valuable asset to this team.

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11-13-2008, 12:38 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Matthiasitchy View Post
IMO, having a goalie tandem as good as this is a problem that most teams in the NHL would love to have, so I see no reason in moving either if both can be a valuable asset to this team.
The problem is this team doesn't have the luxury of having a great goaltending tandem when you have other areas that need to be addressed - ie - scoring forward. If you can trade Voukon or Andy for a proven scorer then you have to do it, a team does not win without balance, and right now this team has no balance.

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11-13-2008, 12:44 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by pb1300 View Post
Im happy with the way Martin has built this team from nothing to at least something. Even with that being said though, should we make a run at Burke? Burnside has a list of teams that should be in Burke sweepstakes, and we are one of them. He more than likely will go to Toronto, but I would like Cohen to make a call and see what interest is there. The thing is though, there probably is none since Martin got that extension just this past offseason.

Another thing...GAWD do I hate to compare 80+ games to 400+ games, but should Martin see if there is any interest in Vokoun? Tomas is a top 10 goalie in the league, but I think Anderson is quite good as well. I think he is a more poised goaltender, and is not as overly aggressive as Vokoun is, which sometimes gets him in trouble. I think Vokoun could bring us a big return, and even though Id want him to stay, its just a thought.
Any trade of Tomas would be weakened immediately by the necessity of getting an NHL caliber backup back for him. This is because none of our prospects is ready to be in the NHL. Hell, it seems like none is even ready to be in the AHL.

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11-13-2008, 02:12 PM
  #111
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Ok, fair enough. I don't know it. But I also don't want to be the one to find out if he is. Unnecessary risk when we have Vokoun who has shown he can get it done.
Yeah I know what you mean. He might not be the type to handle games on a consistent basis. But right now, I think we should keep him in net as long as we're winning. He's playing great.

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11-13-2008, 03:47 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Biggzy View Post
Yeah I know what you mean. He might not be the type to handle games on a consistent basis. But right now, I think we should keep him in net as long as we're winning. He's playing great.
Oh yes, agreed.

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11-20-2008, 10:11 AM
  #113
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What this team needs to do

First of all, we need to trade for Marian Gaborik. He's the kind of scorer we need on this team. He's EXACTLY what we need, and this is the perfect time to go for him because he's a pending UFA. Trade Olesz and someone else (Zednik, McLean) with some picks. Olesz is the type of player Minnesota loves and I could see Rusty thriving over there in the defensive system. I don't like the idea of trading Olesz but you have to give to get.

Second, keep Bouwmeester. If we manage to acquire Gaborik it will obviously send some sort of a message to the locker room that this franchise is serious about stepping up its game. I know it's a lot of "what ifs, etc, " but if the franchise shows something between now and January that they are serious, maybe Bouw could change his mind. I feel like he's only playing poorly because of the indecision in his head. He's not as focused out there and you can see it. Maybe he just really wants out........only time will tell.

And finally, stick with Martin. Keep DeBoer. Don't fire either of them for a long time. Stick with this team. These guys know what it takes to win. DeBoer pretty much owned the OHL in coaching and Martin is 7th all time in wins in the NHL. Martin obviously knows the offense is sub-par but his hands must be tied with the budget with Cohen breathing down his neck. DeBoer's a good coach who's got to get through to these players. Some outside help would be nice.

And fire the medical staff!

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11-20-2008, 10:15 AM
  #114
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Problem:
The Panthers would NEVER be able to afford Gaborik AND Bouwmeeter at 7+ million each.

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11-20-2008, 10:37 AM
  #115
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If the team could get rid of Olesz (3+mil next year) in the trade, which I don't think would be near enough to get Gaborik, and shed some more salary -- Boynton (2.95 mil) and Skastins (2.4 mil) -- that would be enough to sign Gaborik and find one cheaper d-man. However, they still would have to find another 2 million or so for Bouwmeester and another 2.5 million to pay Ballard for his raise next year. If they let MacLean, Zednik, Dvorak, Peltonen, and Murphy go, they'd save about 6 million, but they'd also have to pay for players to take those roster spots. At least four players, as Murphy has barely played for this team, who even if you replaced them with guys making 700,000 a year on average would only leave an extra 3.5 million or so.

This team is just in a real tight spot cap wise, and even moreso with what Cohen wants to spend. They need to find cheaper forward solutions than Gaborik. The team would have to be totally gutted to aquire Gaborik and sign him and Bouwmeester to long term deals.

The team would look something like this:

Stillman3.5-Horton4-Gaborik7.5(??)
Booth.7(???next year)-Weiss3.1-Stewart.52(??)
Matthias??-Kreps.68-Frolik1.3
Glass.55-Campbell.76-Belak.65

Bouwmeester4.9-Allen2.9
Ballard2.3(4.2)-McCabe(5.75)
Welch.65??-Cullimore.83

Vokoun5.7
Anderson.55(?)

So about 47-48 for this year + whatever Matthias' cap hit is. Then Booth, Stewart, Welch, and Anderson need new contracts. Bouwmeester and Gaborik would need a bit more cash, and ballard will be making about 2 million more next year.


Last edited by Pukboy5kroner: 11-20-2008 at 10:54 AM.
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11-20-2008, 10:38 AM
  #116
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Martin obviously knows the offense is sub-par but his hands must be tied with the budget with Cohen breathing down his neck
.

you gotta love the excuses people make for Martin....

Payroll is over $52Million, yeah sounds like Cohen is really restricting the budget. Maybe if Martin hadn't WASTED money on McLean, Dvorak, Peltonen, Zednick, etc, etc, he would have some payroll flexibility - oh, btw, you must not have heard Martin or read his quotes for the last 2 years, when he emphatically says that we have all the offense we need.

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And fire the medical staff!
And there it is, the real reason this team stinks....

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11-20-2008, 10:49 AM
  #117
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you gotta love the excuses people make for Martin....
Yeah, well a lot of this team's problems are due to him and the mistakes he made the first four years after buying the team. So don't excuse Cohen, even if you continue to blame Martin.

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And there it is, the real reason this team stinks....
I'm sure he meant the training staff - which one must cast an eye on when this team CONSISTENTLY is amongst the league leaders in man-games lost, season after season after season. It's ridiculous, and for a team still lacking in organizational depth (which it will for minimally 3 more years and then only if they keep some consistency in building up) it's extremely disruptive to any efforts to reach the playoffs when they lose solid roster players.

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11-20-2008, 01:17 PM
  #118
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What this teams needs more than Gaborik is a leader: a guy like Brendan Morrow who will not let up on his teammates.

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11-20-2008, 01:55 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Pukboy5kroner View Post
If the team could get rid of Olesz (3+mil next year) in the trade, which I don't think would be near enough to get Gaborik, and shed some more salary -- Boynton (2.95 mil) and Skastins (2.4 mil) -- that would be enough to sign Gaborik and find one cheaper d-man. However, they still would have to find another 2 million or so for Bouwmeester and another 2.5 million to pay Ballard for his raise next year. If they let MacLean, Zednik, Dvorak, Peltonen, and Murphy go, they'd save about 6 million, but they'd also have to pay for players to take those roster spots. At least four players, as Murphy has barely played for this team, who even if you replaced them with guys making 700,000 a year on average would only leave an extra 3.5 million or so.

This team is just in a real tight spot cap wise, and even moreso with what Cohen wants to spend. They need to find cheaper forward solutions than Gaborik. The team would have to be totally gutted to aquire Gaborik and sign him and Bouwmeester to long term deals.

The team would look something like this:

Stillman3.5-Horton4-Gaborik7.5(??)
Booth.7(???next year)-Weiss3.1-Stewart.52(??)
Matthias??-Kreps.68-Frolik1.3
Glass.55-Campbell.76-Belak.65

Bouwmeester4.9-Allen2.9
Ballard2.3(4.2)-McCabe(5.75)
Welch.65??-Cullimore.83

Vokoun5.7
Anderson.55(?)

So about 47-48 for this year + whatever Matthias' cap hit is. Then Booth, Stewart, Welch, and Anderson need new contracts. Bouwmeester and Gaborik would need a bit more cash, and ballard will be making about 2 million more next year.
If we ever acquired Gaborik, Bouw would have to go back the other way, we don't have the money for both. I somehow don't really think Gaborik is the answer though. There's two things I would like us to get in the (forward) player we acquire for Bouw: 1. mental toughness and winning attitude 2. playmaking ability. As good a player Gaborik is I don't think he has too much of either.

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11-20-2008, 01:59 PM
  #120
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Quote:
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If we ever acquired Gaborik, Bouw would have to go back the other way, we don't have the money for both. I somehow don't really think Gaborik is the answer though. There's two things I would like us to get in the (forward) player we acquire for Bouw: 1. mental toughness and winning attitude 2. playmaking ability. As good a player Gaborik is I don't think he has too much of either.
Not to mention, he'd get hurt and miss 1/2 the year.

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11-20-2008, 02:03 PM
  #121
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Not to mention, he'd get hurt and miss 1/2 the year.
Yeah, that reminds me - trade Bouw now before he gets hurt and we're left with nothing, as usual.

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11-20-2008, 02:46 PM
  #122
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Not to mention, he'd get hurt and miss 1/2 the year.
And he will probably leave us when this season is over.

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11-20-2008, 03:02 PM
  #123
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The question you asked about whether Martin should be given that job is valid. And the answer is a resounding NO. He felt the team was good enough this offseason and that means he's clearly not objective enough. He's made moves the last 3 yrs and its only caused the team to regress.
first, we're less than 20 games into this season and have suffered some major injuries. second, this team should be good enough. by that, i mean good enough to make the playoffs. that's what we're talking about here. that's what he's talking and he's right.


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11-20-2008, 10:13 PM
  #124
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first, we're less than 20 games into this season and have suffered some major injuries. second, this team should be good enough. by that, i mean good enough to make the playoffs. that's what we're talking about here. that's what he's talking and he's right.
"Should" is the key word there but "should" hasnt shown up on the scoreboard yet. Lotsa teams have injuries...heck look at the team FL played tonite in the Devils. They're missing their best player and they were still able to beat FL (using their 3rd string goalie as well). A good GM will make sure to have a roster that can sustain injuries (to a certain degree) and still play well. And FL has not improved under Martin's watch...they've just treaded water around the 85 pt mark each season. Not good enough to be a playoff contender and not enough has improved to say that they are. They're not good enough because Martin believes the players are better than they really are. So I still think Martin shouldnt be a GM and isnt a good judge of talent.

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11-20-2008, 10:21 PM
  #125
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"Should" is the key word there but "should" hasnt shown up on the scoreboard yet. Lotsa teams have injuries...heck look at the team FL played tonite in the Devils. They're missing their best player and they were still able to beat FL (using their 3rd string goalie as well). A good GM will make sure to have a roster that can sustain injuries (to a certain degree) and still play well. And FL has not improved under Martin's watch...they've just treaded water around the 85 pt mark each season. Not good enough to be a playoff contender and not enough has improved to say that they are. They're not good enough because Martin believes the players are better than they really are. So I still think Martin shouldnt be a GM and isnt a good judge of talent.
The players ARE better than they're playing, it's fairly easy to see when they revert back to their bad habits.

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