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#14 -- Flyers at Islanders -- November 11, 2008 -- 2:00 PM (ET)

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11-12-2008, 12:26 PM
  #926
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Look guys. None of you saw the Steven's interview did you?? He explained clearly that if your trying your hardest and have the right frame of mind, it's ok if you make a few mistakes...
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
Great post. I agree with every word of it. People need to chill on the Stevens stuff. ...

I shortened both quotes because they were long and I don't need to repost everything in them. To be honest with you 2 I am more in agreement with you than you probably think. However, it's not that I think that Stevens is losing the team because of these benchings but more than the lazy play and overall seeming of a lack of a real effort from most of the team is indicitive that he's losing or has laready lost them. If Harts isn't too upset over being benched then it seems to me either he's really not feeling well and shouldn't be playing or that he really doesn't care what his coach thinks. THAT'S NOT GOOD!!!

Believe me, I'm no Steves fan because I see a lack in our on-ice play that have been there for 2 years now and that's the coaches job to correct it. If it's the players NOT doing what he's telling them to do then what would make anyone believe that he could get them to change now after 2 years of not listening??? However, I DON'T want to see him lose the lockerroom. If that happens or has already happened then we are in some deep doo-doo. This team will be aweful if the players don't respect and follow their coach and I personally don't want to go through the next few weeks or so of losing before Holmgren is forced to remove Stevens.

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11-12-2008, 01:03 PM
  #927
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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
Well, I guess working out and being in shape means nothing in NHL.

When or if Carter, Hartnell, Lupul, Knuble, Metro start throwing their weight around maybe Flyers can create some turnovers, do some damage, draw some penalties, make someone miss a shift or two, put pressure on D, create some chances, score a goal. This team sucks 5 on 5 because most of players refuse to work on the ice.

Add Richards, Upshall, Asham(need to get better), Cote to that list and half of our team playing the way hockey should be played in this town.

Get Alerts and Coburn going a little bit and teams will think twice before crossing that blue line.
I never said being in shape means nothing in the NHL did I? What i said was that i didnt see the correlation between being in shape and being Physical on the ice. The post you responded to was about how Hartnell and Lupul joked about their body fat being high and my point is, you dont need to have a low body fat % to play hard and throw your weight around on the ice. I just didnt understand how you went from talking about how Lupul and hartnell seem out of shape and didnt work out over the summer to listing players on the team you think are soft and need to use their size more. Maybe Im just missing something you were responding to.

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11-12-2008, 03:04 PM
  #928
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Well I dunno, the oft-given reason for being so upset about the Downie trade was that he exhibited such great leadership in leading Team Canada to junior trophies. Leadership.

We all know that if the Flyers were shredding right now, there'd be posts galore about the glory of Richards' leadership.
I don't disagree with what you said, but I'm not sure what Richards is supposed to do better.

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11-12-2008, 03:09 PM
  #929
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Well I dunno, the oft-given reason for being so upset about the Downie trade was that he exhibited such great leadership in leading Team Canada to junior trophies. Leadership.

We all know that if the Flyers were shredding right now, there'd be posts galore about the glory of Richards' leadership.
I don't think I've seen that brought up once since Downie was traded.

Richards has clearly been leading by example. He's been the Flyers second best player behind only Carter. There's not much else he can be doing

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11-12-2008, 04:22 PM
  #930
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The only question I have about Richards as captain is that can he call out his buddies for their lack of effort? On the ice he is doing everything expected of him.

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11-12-2008, 04:52 PM
  #931
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Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Look guys. None of you saw the Steven's interview did you?? He explained clearly that if your trying your hardest and have the right frame of mind, it's ok if you make a few mistakes. Coburn's boarding penalty sucked. Coburn knew it, he explained it after the game, but he works harder then most people in this league. You don't bench him for that. It happens. However, hStevens does not condone laziness or lack of effort, and he disciplined Lupul and Hartnell for that reason. Lupul was upset, but in his interview he made it clear he needs to simplify things and get back to hitting. I didn't see the Hartnell interview, but if your not trying, your *** better be on the bench.

STOP complaining about Steven's losing respect in the locker room and all this other BS. Some of this Steven's hate is not warranted and is just a chance for a bunch of people to whine.

I hate Steven's because our system sucks and I think we give up to many shots. He does have his positives, but complaining that he might lose the teams respect because he benched a top 6 forward who he felt was not trying hard enough, might be the dumbest thing ever.

If you don't respect your coaches because they bench a good player (on a struggling team) to send a message to that player, you obviously need to learn what makes up a goad coach.

If you don't respect Steven's because he stuck Lupul on the 4th line to send a message FOR ONE GAME, then you need to get something straight. This game has ups and downs, and if Lupul is playing lazy (which a lot of posters here have mentioned in their posts) then you have to reduce his TOI and send the message that you don't just get 18-20 minutes a game, you earn those minutes through hard work. Whats the easiest way to lower TOI? 4th line.

I don't blame this teams problems on lack of leadership. We have 3 players on this team who have worn the "C" on their jersey. Cannon is a class act. Timonen is a class act. Briere is a class act. We have Gagne who leads by example, we have Knuble who is a veteran presence and tells the media like it is. To blame this teams troubles on Captain Cannon's leadership rather then saying this team's system is flawed and the players have played like trash (which is the real reason Steven's sucks, not his response to the players playing like trash which all of you are complaining about).

Look, I get it, we traded Downie. OMG. That means that Steven's and Holmgrem both suck. Maybe they didn't like Downie, or maybe they felt he didn't work hard enough or something. I love when you all complain about how we mis-used Downie when none of you sit on the bench or in the locker room, and have no idea about the conversations between Holmgrem, Stevens and Downie. Downie had suspension and discipline problems. Benching a player is the only way to send a message without trading him, which it came down to in Downie's case.

If this team fires Stevens, it will because he didn't implement a winning strategy, not because the players lose respect for him.

I'm tired of the bullcrap. Listen to yourselves for once guys. 4 games into the season we have a "Is Richard to blame?" thread. I mean, what else do I have to say?
Holy crap. Irish, this is why you rule. Leave it to you to make me feel better by following up my point of view on this team.

There are a lot of people that are *****ING and MOANING on this board over the STUPIDEST ****ing things. A lot of people on the Flyers board are starting to turn into CannonGoBoom's avatar. Hartnell benched isn't the end of the ****ing world. This team isn't going to miss the playoffs this year because Hartnell got benched for a period or Lupul plays a game or 2 on 4th line.

Downie is gone, if he was doing his job he'd still be here. Deal with it. This reminds me of a story a few years ago, a kid was cut from his high school basketball team at the first cuts of the season because he wasn't performing, and they told him to work on it and come back next year. Instead, the parents sue the school for cutting their son. Does that make sense? NO. So why blame Holmgren because Downie wasn't doing his job. I wish Downie was given more of a chance, but getting stupid penalties is the total opposite of doing your job.

Our team DOESN'T SUCK. They're developing. Be patient.

End rant.

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11-12-2008, 05:30 PM
  #932
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Originally Posted by JLHockeyKnight View Post
Downie is gone, if he was doing his job he'd still be here. Deal with it. This reminds me of a story a few years ago, a kid was cut from his high school basketball team at the first cuts of the season because he wasn't performing, and they told him to work on it and come back next year. Instead, the parents sue the school for cutting their son. Does that make sense? NO. So why blame Holmgren because Downie wasn't doing his job. I wish Downie was given more of a chance, but getting stupid penalties is the total opposite of doing your job..
Holmgren and Stevens are getting blamed because they didn't put Downie in the best position to succeed. His development was completely mishandled and that doesn't change no matter how many bad penalties Downie has taken. The other issue people take issue with is Downie isn't the only one to take bad penalties, but he is the only one singled out the way he was.

Downie certainly could have done a better job but he was a ROOKIE with less than a full season of games in the pros under his belt. Rookies make mistakes. He needed patience instead of putting him on an extremely short leash.

I agree with your sentiment that some people look for reasons to complain about Stevens, but this one is a valid complaint.

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11-12-2008, 06:01 PM
  #933
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Ok, maybe, but if your coach needs to be instructed HOW to coach the team, dont you think there is a problem there??? And why does it take a year and a half to say something about it?



I am not going to address most of this since I disagree and we will just be going in circles anyway, but I do agree about Knuble. I have been trying to defend the guy since the beginning of last year.



Agreed


Every single coach in the world had to be taught how to coach at the NHL level. If Hitchcock wasn't such an epic failure in post lockout hockey, maybe Stevens would have had a few more years to mature, but he was, so he's learning on the job.

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11-12-2008, 06:29 PM
  #934
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Holmgren and Stevens are getting blamed because they didn't put Downie in the best position to succeed. His development was completely mishandled and that doesn't change no matter how many bad penalties Downie has taken. The other issue people take issue with is Downie isn't the only one to take bad penalties, but he is the only one singled out the way he was.

Downie certainly could have done a better job but he was a ROOKIE with less than a full season of games in the pros under his belt. Rookies make mistakes. He needed patience instead of putting him on an extremely short leash.

I agree with your sentiment that some people look for reasons to complain about Stevens, but this one is a valid complaint.
He put himself on a short leash by an un-warranted hit on McAmmond and a cheap shot on Blake. I loved it, but that leaves a bad name for the team and on himself. Blaming Holmgren and Stevens for Downie's actions on the ice doesn't make sense. He's lucky he got games in the NHL. If this team wasn't randomly plagued with injuries he technically be a rookie because he'd be in the AHL. He was the 13th man on the team. When you're in that spot, you have to make best of the games you get in the NHL and play hard in the AHL to get those games. The games he played in the NHL he barely produced and got a ton of bad penalties. How was Holmgren and Stevens supposed to handle that? You can get the same offense from players like Ross and Nodl, only they won't take stupid penalties.

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11-12-2008, 06:42 PM
  #935
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If the Flyers were shredding right now, mods here couldn't keep you from parading from one thread to the next annointing Stevens the second coming of Christ. Seen you do it after just one win enough times to know better, Scooter.
No one has ever seen me do that, certainly not someone who's been around for 70 posts

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11-12-2008, 06:48 PM
  #936
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I don't disagree with what you said, but I'm not sure what Richards is supposed to do better.
I think there are a number of things he could do better, but nothing huge. Just saying if, say, Knuble were captain, we'd be talking about it.

And while no one knows what happens in the locker room, something tells me if they had a veteran captain, oafs like Hartnell wouldn't be running their yaps to reporters.

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11-12-2008, 06:50 PM
  #937
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After watching that clip I know both did not work out during summer.

Knuble is soft. Metro looks soft out there, Carle is not physical d-men. Alberts soft.

Coburn = soft, and Carter (who by the way looks tremendous) do not throw their weight around and these are the guys who can catch anyone on the ice.

So who does play physical? Richards, Sbisa, Vaananen (before injury), Asham when he gets ice time (imo he does not do it enough for a checking forward), Cote if he can catch someone (once every 3 games), Upshall (is a lot better then last season).

Briere and Gagne won’t throw big checks on regular basis, same with Timonen. I am not saying I want them too. Last thing I want is to see Gagne shaking up.

After initially playing coy with the media, Hartnell owed up the fact the coach may have had cause to bench him, but what I found really interesting was Hartnell basically accusing Stevens of playing favorites by not singling out everyone on the team.

I just hope he holds everyone accountable and it doesn’t matter what number they’re wearing on the back," Hartnell said. Is this guy for real? What does he think he is doing? Fingerpointing? Someone better talk to him about that and tell him to shut his yap. Same goes for Lupul who is unhappy.

At this point we have a very soft team who do some commercials and earning big $
Pretty sure Meltzer read your post:

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Bill-...12-08/45/17825

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It's all about context

What usually happens after a game is that players end up answering the same questions over and over again. Often it's because the reporters in the back can't hear the earlier responses. The player will then essentially give the same response, perhaps with slightly different phrasing.

In addition, certain players and coaches tend to give very lengthy responses to a question, slightly rephrashing themselves several times in one statement. For purposes of quotation, only a segment of what is said ends up in print. In many cases, it makes little or no difference to the reader, but sometimes the segment of the quotation that is used can completely change the context of the statement.

That was the case with Hartnell's postgame commentary yesterday.

Some media outlets used this segment, which seems to emphasize that Hartnell had no problem at all with being benched, understood why it happened, and pledged to get back on the horse in the next game:

"I don't care if I play 20 minutes or five minutes, as long as we win the game," Hartnell said. "He's trying to hold guys accountable, and I have no problems sitting if he doesn't think I'm doing a good job. I'm a positive person, and I'm going to look at it in a positive way - and get back to doing simple things and keep [my] feet moving and getting pucks deep and not turning it over. You have to look at it that way."


Others have used this segment, which makes the same key point, but also says the player thinks the enforcement needs to be consistent all year:

“I think it's great (that Stevens is taking a tougher stance). You're trying to hold the guys accountable. I have no problems sitting if he doesn't think I'm doing a good job. I just hope he holds everyone accountable, it doesn't matter what number you wear on your back. It's all for the team now. You have to make a stand — it was me tonight.”


Still others have honed in on just this tiny segment:

I just hope he holds everyone accountable, it doesn't matter what number you wear on your back.


Now, all the sudden, it sounds like Hartnell is calling out his coach and accusing him of favoritism. (If that were the case in this instance, by the way, I doubt Hartnell would have been the one to be benched. If anything, benching Hartnell showed that the coach wasn't playing favorites).

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11-12-2008, 07:40 PM
  #938
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No one has ever seen me do that, certainly not someone who's been around for 70 posts
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He has them playing their best hockey of the year at the right time. They were proclaimed dead 10 weeks ago during that ten game winless streak. They were proclaimed dead six weeks ago after getting smoked in Pittsburgh. They were proclaimed dead one week ago after the Game Six loss to Washington.

It's been a pretty remarkable run and Stevens deserves some credit for it.
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Somehow, I doubt this thread will be stickied next to the Stevens is fail thread.
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I reckon it'll just get merged into the Stevens Is Fail thread, which is a mightily lonely place after a win...
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theres plenty of posts since last night. 13 of them including you.


Right.

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11-12-2008, 07:43 PM
  #939
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Every single coach in the world had to be taught how to coach at the NHL level. If Hitchcock wasn't such an epic failure in post lockout hockey, maybe Stevens would have had a few more years to mature, but he was, so he's learning on the job.
a 100 pt season is an "epic failure?"

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11-12-2008, 07:45 PM
  #940
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I don't disagree with what you said, but I'm not sure what Richards is supposed to do better.
I'll disagree...who ever pegged Downie as a real leader? Key contributor, maybe...but not a "leader."

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11-12-2008, 08:35 PM
  #941
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Guys give up the personal ridicules. JUst because JXC and other have a different opinion on Stevens doesnt mean you can flame them, and Vice versa.

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11-12-2008, 09:03 PM
  #942
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Downie is gone, if he was doing his job he'd still be here. Deal with it. This reminds me of a story a few years ago, a kid was cut from his high school basketball team at the first cuts of the season because he wasn't performing, and they told him to work on it and come back next year. Instead, the parents sue the school for cutting their son. Does that make sense? NO. So why blame Holmgren because Downie wasn't doing his job. I wish Downie was given more of a chance, but getting stupid penalties is the total opposite of doing your job.

Our team DOESN'T SUCK. They're developing. Be patient.

End rant.


Thank You Thanks You Thanks You!!!!!

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11-12-2008, 09:11 PM
  #943
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He put himself on a short leash by an un-warranted hit on McAmmond and a cheap shot on Blake. I loved it, but that leaves a bad name for the team and on himself. Blaming Holmgren and Stevens for Downie's actions on the ice doesn't make sense. He's lucky he got games in the NHL. If this team wasn't randomly plagued with injuries he technically be a rookie because he'd be in the AHL. He was the 13th man on the team. When you're in that spot, you have to make best of the games you get in the NHL and play hard in the AHL to get those games. The games he played in the NHL he barely produced and got a ton of bad penalties. How was Holmgren and Stevens supposed to handle that? You can get the same offense from players like Ross and Nodl, only they won't take stupid penalties.
I don't think that short leash had anything to do with those incidents. The fact that he was consider the 13th man on the team is proof that they mishandled his development. He can't develop without getting consistent minutes. There was nothing beneficial to Downie's development to give him 5 minutes a game. It was a huge mistake to start him on the 4th line because he is the type of player that needs minutes to produce and get his legs under him. He should have been sent to the AHL or at least given some minutes to prove himself. Holmgren himself has admitted as much. He wasn't going to produce playing 5 minutes a night without any decent linemates. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

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11-12-2008, 10:40 PM
  #944
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He put himself on a short leash by an un-warranted hit on McAmmond and a cheap shot on Blake. I loved it, but that leaves a bad name for the team and on himself. Blaming Holmgren and Stevens for Downie's actions on the ice doesn't make sense. He's lucky he got games in the NHL. If this team wasn't randomly plagued with injuries he technically be a rookie because he'd be in the AHL. He was the 13th man on the team. When you're in that spot, you have to make best of the games you get in the NHL and play hard in the AHL to get those games. The games he played in the NHL he barely produced and got a ton of bad penalties. How was Holmgren and Stevens supposed to handle that? You can get the same offense from players like Ross and Nodl, only they won't take stupid penalties.
Finally someone else here isn't a total Downie lover. Dont get me wrong, I don't hate Downie, but the love for him here for what he did is unreal. People of course are gonna come back to post by saying "What he brings to the team is different then Ross and Nodl". Being honest I didn't see much from him, EVEN WHEN HE WAS WITH RICHARDS. Didn't mean that in time he could have been better though. But I think he wouldn't succeed here and Carle is doing very well for us.

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11-13-2008, 12:13 AM
  #945
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I think there are a number of things he could do better, but nothing huge. Just saying if, say, Knuble were captain, we'd be talking about it.

And while no one knows what happens in the locker room, something tells me if they had a veteran captain, oafs like Hartnell wouldn't be running their yaps to reporters.
True, there is something to be said for popularity on the internet. But since Richie is generally our best and hardest working player every night, it's hard to criticize him for little mistakes here and there, and especially hard because we don't know what's going on in the room.

The only thing I can comment on is what I see on the ice and how that reflects on the players and the coaching staff. Richards is leading by example like we expected him to. Is he the guy the team needs in the room? Who knows. But it is a team.

As for the Hartnell comment, I'm not so sure about that. Scott's always been candid with the media and I think his comment has been taken out of context and blown out of proportion. I'm not sure how the greatest captain in the history of sports would prevent Scott Hartnell from saying what he wants to the media, nevermind Mike Richards or any ol' veteran captain. Even though you know whose side of the fence I'm on when it comes to our coach, I do not want to see a division in that room.

I do think there needs to be some more experience and veteran leadership in that room, though. Just like Stevens needs (needed?) time to be groomed as an NHL coach, Richards needs time to grow into this role as well. He's 23 and only 14 games into his 12 years as captain. He is not above needing help.

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I'll disagree...who ever pegged Downie as a real leader? Key contributor, maybe...but not a "leader."
I was responding more to the Richards part...shoulda bolded it. My fault one that one.

Downie was a leader in junior at times (other times a detriment), and a player that could become a playoff warrior, but I was fully aware that he would never be known as a "leader" in the NHL.

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11-13-2008, 12:29 AM
  #946
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Every single coach in the world had to be taught how to coach at the NHL level. If Hitchcock wasn't such an epic failure in post lockout hockey, maybe Stevens would have had a few more years to mature, but he was, so he's learning on the job.
Well we can throw Clarke in there as well signing Hatcher and Rathje right after the lockout ended thinking the NHL was going to revert back to pre-lockout hockey

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11-13-2008, 07:55 AM
  #947
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As for the Hartnell comment, I'm not so sure about that. Scott's always been candid with the media and I think his comment has been taken out of context and blown out of proportion. I'm not sure how the greatest captain in the history of sports would prevent Scott Hartnell from saying what he wants to the media, nevermind Mike Richards or any ol' veteran captain. Even though you know whose side of the fence I'm on when it comes to our coach, I do not want to see a division in that room.

I do think there needs to be some more experience and veteran leadership in that room, though. Just like Stevens needs (needed?) time to be groomed as an NHL coach, Richards needs time to grow into this role as well. He's 23 and only 14 games into his 12 years as captain. He is not above needing help.
Yeah, good points. As infuriating it was (at times) to watch the relative immobility of Smith and Hatcher exploited last year, I think they miss them something fierce in the locker room.

But then again they played like dookie for long stretches last year as well.

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11-13-2008, 08:30 AM
  #948
mikedifr
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I was talking to one of my friends recently about Downie being traded and he was really upset. Not because of his potential, but because Downie is his favorite DRUNK on the team. My friend works at a golf course and he said that Downie and Hartnell know how to put down beers when he saw them one day playing a round of golf.

So maybe, just maybe Downie did not have that dedication that makes certain players great and maybe Hartnell is actually pretty lazy. Also, did anyone see the clip on today's game where they had a segment on "Cooking with Hartnell"? Lupul and Hartnell kid around about how they were number one and two in body fat on the team. It's kind of ironic that I see this in the 2nd period intermission yesterday. Maybe there is some reasoning behind the demotions of both guys after all.
What the hell does them drinking and having a good time when not playing hockey have to do with them not having dedication and being lazy??? If that was the case, then the entire broad street bullies team was "lazy" and not dedicated to their team.

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Every single coach in the world had to be taught how to coach at the NHL level. If Hitchcock wasn't such an epic failure in post lockout hockey, maybe Stevens would have had a few more years to mature, but he was, so he's learning on the job.
In addition to Jester's post below, how in the world can he be considered an epic failure? He got an AHL defense, two NHL dman that struggled that year and a 1 line team to 100 points and into the playoffs. He wasnt even given a chance the following year.....an lets not discuss Columbus. This is the first year he has had SOME talent on the team to work with. Lets see what he does over this full year.

Irregardless, a coach shouldnt be given a chance in the NHL until they are ready for the NHL....Bruce Budreau sure hasnt had any problems adjusting to the NHL.....

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a 100 pt season is an "epic failure?"

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11-13-2008, 09:31 AM
  #949
Dig Out Your Soul
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
Yeah, good points. As infuriating it was (at times) to watch the relative immobility of Smith and Hatcher exploited last year, I think they miss them something fierce in the locker room.

But then again they played like dookie for long stretches last year as well.
There's definitely positives and negatives to having those players. It's a reason why I'm in favour of going after Shanahan, because I think he can play on the third line without looking like crap while bringing valuable experience and leadership.

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11-13-2008, 04:32 PM
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I don't think that short leash had anything to do with those incidents. The fact that he was consider the 13th man on the team is proof that they mishandled his development. He can't develop without getting consistent minutes. There was nothing beneficial to Downie's development to give him 5 minutes a game. It was a huge mistake to start him on the 4th line because he is the type of player that needs minutes to produce and get his legs under him. He should have been sent to the AHL or at least given some minutes to prove himself. Holmgren himself has admitted as much. He wasn't going to produce playing 5 minutes a night without any decent linemates. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
There's just so much wrong with this statement. He's an AHL-level player, they NEVER get consistent minutes. The 4th line is MADE for AHL players or players who fit into an energy line. The first 3 lines, at least for a team with depth like ours, is meant for real NHL players. Downie wasn't given time to develop because there wasn't room. If you're so concerned about Downie, I think he has a better job developing on Tampa where they don't have a lot of depth yet, cause when he does get called up from the AHL they should have more room for him.

As for 4th line minutes, Lupul was thrown down there as punishment, and he knows that he has to MAKE THE MOST OF IT. When you're consistently on the 4th line like Downie and not making the most of your time, then revert to my rant about not doing your job. He had 6 games and not a single point. That says a lot. Asham and Cote could get away with that because they're fighters, but Downie, who should develop into something more, can't go like that and expect to get playing time.

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