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Hansen back tomorrow, Demitra questionable for Saturday

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Old
11-11-2008, 11:40 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Zorbane View Post
So IF Sundin signs what happens :|
Pyatt and Hordichuk alternate between the 4th line and the press box. That says a lot about how much the team has improved.

Next year's question is even more interesting, what happens when Grabner and Hodgson make the team?

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11-12-2008, 12:13 AM
  #52
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good to see Hansen back. Burrows and Kesler miss having a speedy linemate, and it was evident against Minny as Ouellet couldn't keep up. I'd really consider trying Demitra or Wellwood with the twins when Pavol is back, and run Bernier-Demitra/Wellwood-Raymond, and swap Demitra and Wellwood with the twins, Pyatt can play 4th line, and Brown goes down it give the fourth line some scoring potential that Hordi and brown don't bring, in tough games Ouellet gets the press box.

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11-12-2008, 02:18 AM
  #53
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I have a funny feeling we may have seen the last of Pyatt very soon.

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Old
11-12-2008, 02:24 AM
  #54
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I want to see if theres any chemistry with Raymond, Wellwood and Demitra on the same line together. I think that Wellwood and Demitra are arguably the nucks most skilled players. And i think all three of them would click, especially with Demitra playing on the wing.

Besides, the whole point in Gillis trading for Bernier was for him to grow and build chemistry with the Sedins. I think AV should give Bernier more than 8 games to see if he can contribute on the first line. Imagine..

Sedin Sedin Bernier
Raymond Wellwood Demitra
Burrows Kesler Hansen
Hordichuck Johnson Pyatt

Rypien

They were put together as a line during pre season and it worked fine. Wellwood was a ppg guy during pre season, Raymond also had a good pre SEason, probably because of Demitra. However, A.V didnt want to go with that line despite being such an effective line in the pre season because it lacked toughness.

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11-12-2008, 03:27 AM
  #55
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I have a funny feeling we may have seen the last of Pyatt very soon.
I doubt it, unless we need the cap space. Professional coaches and managers can recognize the intangibles that he brings to any line he plays on.

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11-12-2008, 04:47 AM
  #56
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I doubt it, unless we need the cap space. Professional coaches and managers can recognize the intangibles that he brings to any line he plays on.
I agree, although this particular staff essentially tossed away Pettinger and Wellwood for Mike Brown so who knows.

Maan... A fourth line of Pyatt-Johnson-Pettinger would sure look good right now.

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11-12-2008, 04:47 AM
  #57
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I guess I'm going to be the only one standing up for Brown. While I agree that he has not shown much skill, I think he has shown a degree of toughness the team needs.

Put another way one of the reasons we had our defense decimated last year was because we lacked any deterrence against our defense being run. With post lock out rules against interference it became apparent that you had to do something to protect the d-men from being run. One way teams have done this to have players who will run your defense in retaliation. For example, when Rypien nailed a Nashville defenseman last year, Tootoo immediately came out and nailed Miller, putting him out for the rest of the season. Nonis was a dolt for not catching on quicker that you need players like Tootoo. (Maybe he was relying on Cooke - but Cooke was simply not tough enough)

One thing Brown can do is run the other team's players or goalie if someone takes shots at our players or Luongo. And he is tough enough to back up what he does. This, in turn, saves Hordichuk to confront the other team's chief enforcer.

Having a healthy defense this year may, in part, be a result of having players like Brown who make the other team pay for taking shots at our defensemen. IMO keeping the defense healthy is of prime importance and while admittedly Brown is very limited, the toughness he provides seems extremely important in keeping our skill players playing.

Casting Pyatt in a 4th line position has appeal because he obviously more talented than Brown. However, I doubt very much that Pyatt will take on the role that Brown presently has. It is just not in his personality. More than that I'm not sure how well Pyatt will play with shortened minutes. He is the kind of player that has to play himself into the game. If he left on the bench he may mentally fall right out of it. With Brown the motor is always running and he is used to this role.


The other point I would make is that Brown is a virtual rookie and needs to be given some slack that any rookie gets. Given time he will improve at the NHL level and might develop into a decent 4th liner. Raymond looked bad last year at times. But given some patience he is starting to really develop. You have to give younger players some chance to break in and get up a pace where they can contribute at the NHL level. Brown, even though he looks like a grizzled vet is still a relatively young player.

I agree , however, that when Rypien comes back, Brown is likely and rightly gone.

I do see the Canucks having to make a decision soon on someone going down when Nycholat comes back from Manitoba. And that decision may well come down to deciding between Brown and Davison. Given that Brown is on a two-way deal it will likely be him out of here. I'm not sure this is the right decision, since I believe that Brown is a far better winger. However, it is likely the decision that will be made.

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11-12-2008, 07:37 AM
  #58
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Eh 1.575 for a 4th liner?

no thanks. Waive him.

put Brown where he belongs.
They have the cap room so why wouldn't you put a superior player in that position? I can pretty much guarantee he has trade value as well so waiving him would be stupid.

on to who gets sent down....

Brown needs to be the guy sent down. Unfortunately I think they keep him around because of the Rypien injury thinking they need that toughness Rypien brings on the roster. Brown quite simply is what he is. He showed no skill in college. He showed no skill in the AHL. He hasn't shown any skill in the NHL. The only thing he's decent at is fighting middle weights. I just don't think that's enough to keep him on a roster whne you have Hordichuk and several others who can handle such things.

i also don't think he's been a factor in keeping people from running D-men or Luongo. The biggest factor is the team commitment to stand up for one another. A cimmitment that wasn't there nearly as strong last season. When there is a perceived cheap shot the other 4 guys on the ice make a beeline to the one who delivered the cheap shot. It doesn't matter who is on the ice and I don't think it matters to the opposition if Mike Brown is on the bench. The only thing they need to know is that at any given time the likes of Kesler, Mitchell, Bieksa, O'Brien, Hordichuk, Bernier and hell even Ohlund may drop the gloves to stand up for themselves or a teammate. I don't think the presence of Brown on the bench makes that list of players more comfortable doing such things. It's a leadership and compete thing with those guys.

Ouellet gets sent down with the Hansen return IMO. When Demitra gets back then maybe brown gets sent down but I still don't know. They have a hard on for the guy for some reason


Last edited by tantalum: 11-12-2008 at 07:46 AM.
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Old
11-12-2008, 07:49 AM
  #59
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I agree, although this particular staff essentially tossed away Pettinger and Wellwood for Mike Brown so who knows.

Maan... A fourth line of Pyatt-Johnson-Pettinger would sure look good right now.
Unless he's hurt and i can find no evidence of it, Pettinger was in the pressbox after 2 games with the Lightening. Wouldn't be surprised to see he's nack on waivers sometime in the near future and the canucks get first shot at reclaiming him.

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Old
11-12-2008, 10:26 AM
  #60
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I guess I'm going to be the only one standing up for Brown. While I agree that he has not shown much skill, I think he has shown a degree of toughness the team needs.
The simple fact is, if Mike Brown brought anything this team "needs", he would not be average less than 6 minutes of ice-time a night.

The 4th line is noticeably less effective with his presence as opposed to Krog's. As someone pointed out in the game against the Wild, they were pinned into their own zone consistently by Minnesota's 4th line, consisting of such All-Stars such as Derek Boogaard and Craig Weller.

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11-12-2008, 10:38 AM
  #61
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most seasons the canucks didn't even carry 1 legitimate fighter... then we had guys like Cowan around just because they could fight, even though they lost most of those fights... seasons like that, I could see the argument about needing a guy like Brown.

but now we somehow need to have multiple fighters on the team, and carry a guy that's useless outside fighting (in Brown)??

if we didn't have Hordichuk in the lineup, I'd agree there may be a bigger need for Brown... but Hordichuk makes him unnecessary... and Rypien though injured (as usual), can do more than fight as well, and makes Brown even more unnecessary.... add to that, there are other guys on the team that will drop their gloves (such as Bieksa, O'Brien, even Burrows or Bernier) and I just find it hard to understand why this team even needs Brown in their lineup??

let's face it, he's useless in every other way other than fighting... everything he brings to the table is replaced by others, who bring more things to the team! With Hordichuk you don't need another fighter on the same line... with Rypien, Bieksa and O'Brien, you don't need another fighter on the team.

Brown shouldn't be a part of this team now... there's no need for anything he brings. We're a much faster team, so having a 4th liner who can actually skate well isn't all that much a priority either... there are players already on the team that fight better than he does, hit better, skate better, can check better and basically do everything you need a hockey player to do, better than Brown... for a guy who's role is admirably filled by others (Hordichuk and Rypien specifically), he's a guy that just isn't needed on this team.

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11-12-2008, 11:10 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post

Brown shouldn't be a part of this team now... there's no need for anything he brings. We're a much faster team, so having a 4th liner who can actually skate well isn't all that much a priority either... there are players already on the team that fight better than he does, hit better, skate better, can check better and basically do everything you need a hockey player to do, better than Brown... for a guy who's role is admirably filled by others (Hordichuk and Rypien specifically), he's a guy that just isn't needed on this team.
if Rypien was healthy this wouldn't be a discussion. But he's not, and never is.

I also disagree with the sentiment that Brown does nothing other than fight. he is a great skater, a good forechecker, and throws some hits. I'd say he's as competent a 5on5 player as Hordichuck, and probably a more consistant physical pressence than Darcy as far as throwing hits and getting in on the forecheck. I'd suggest the problems with the 4th line are at least as much due to Hordichuck's play as they are Brown's.

but bottom line is that AV has wanted a tough 4th line since he got here. as long as Rypien is out, that means either Brown or Davison will get some time on the 4th line. That desire for a buzz saw 4th line gives Brown's spot on the roster some protection, at least until Rypien gets back.

It would be nice to have two pairs of wingers to play with Johnson on that 4th line. A better offensive pairing for games where toughness can be provided by guys like SOB, Bieksa, or Bernier (Pyatt and Pettinger would have been nice, now maybe Pyatt and Krog) and then a tougher pairing for divisional rivals and the Anaheims of the league (Hordichuck and Rypien/Brown). but if we don't want to risk losing Nycholat, the only way to do this is to use Davison on the 4th line for tougher games. We'll see what AV chooses.

anyway, except for games where we need a true heavyweight deterent, I prefer Brown to Hordichuck so far this season. neither have any skill, but Brown is the better skater, throws more hits, and at least has the potential to develop into a decent penalty killer. Hordichuck has been pretty bleh so far this season (so has Brown, agreed, but at least he's young and can skate).

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Old
11-13-2008, 04:02 PM
  #63
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if Rypien was healthy this wouldn't be a discussion. But he's not, and never is.

I also disagree with the sentiment that Brown does nothing other than fight. he is a great skater, a good forechecker, and throws some hits. I'd say he's as competent a 5on5 player as Hordichuck, and probably a more consistant physical pressence than Darcy as far as throwing hits and getting in on the forecheck. I'd suggest the problems with the 4th line are at least as much due to Hordichuck's play as they are Brown's.

but bottom line is that AV has wanted a tough 4th line since he got here. as long as Rypien is out, that means either Brown or Davison will get some time on the 4th line. That desire for a buzz saw 4th line gives Brown's spot on the roster some protection, at least until Rypien gets back.

It would be nice to have two pairs of wingers to play with Johnson on that 4th line. A better offensive pairing for games where toughness can be provided by guys like SOB, Bieksa, or Bernier (Pyatt and Pettinger would have been nice, now maybe Pyatt and Krog) and then a tougher pairing for divisional rivals and the Anaheims of the league (Hordichuck and Rypien/Brown). but if we don't want to risk losing Nycholat, the only way to do this is to use Davison on the 4th line for tougher games. We'll see what AV chooses.

anyway, except for games where we need a true heavyweight deterent, I prefer Brown to Hordichuck so far this season. neither have any skill, but Brown is the better skater, throws more hits, and at least has the potential to develop into a decent penalty killer. Hordichuck has been pretty bleh so far this season (so has Brown, agreed, but at least he's young and can skate).
With the personnel the Canucks have now when all are healthy, it is possible for them to have even a more flexible team than just having two sets of wingers for the forth line. The key is believing many of our present top six can handle assignments on either of the top two lines and to use players on the 4th line that normally would be pencilled in on one of the three top nine lines. Example:

Daniel – Henrik – Wellwood
Raymond – Demitra – Grabner
Burrows – Kesler – Hansen
Pyatt – Johnson – Bernier

Sp. Hordichuk & either Ouellet or Rypien

Mitchell – Bieksa
Ohlund – Edler
O’Brien – Salo

Sp. Davison or Nycholat (both if you want to drop (Ouellet/Rypien)

Pyatt & Bernier have played well together, but either or both could be replaced with Hordichuk and/or Rypien for toughness on the 4th line. Nor would that mean automaticly taking either out of the line up as both are capable of top six assignment if the game calls for a big body to play in front of the net. Equally, if 4th line toughness is not required, Wellwood brings an additional eliment to the Sedin's cycling as well as being able to take a pass and score close in with his short stick if above line up is used, while Grabner, who should be NHL ready at least by Christmas make the second line, though not big, very, very fast and with tons of firepower. When a bit of size is needed, Grabner is replaced by Pyatt or Bernier. When ever injuries occur, we have a good temporary replacement already in the lineup.

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11-13-2008, 04:13 PM
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From CDC:

Quote:
Demitra skated on a line with Taylor Pyatt and Kyle Wellwood in drills today, giving an indication of what the lines may look like once he's ready to make his return to the lineup.
So assuming Raymond stays with the Twins I guess Bernier gets bumped to the 4th line? I'd honestly rather see Bernier with Demitra and Wellwood.

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11-13-2008, 04:38 PM
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So assuming Raymond stays with the Twins I guess Bernier gets bumped to the 4th line? I'd honestly rather see Bernier with Demitra and Wellwood.

Ah geezus. AV once said he thinks Wellwood and Pyatt have chemistry. I don't think he realizes is that Wellwood has TALENT which makes Pyatt look better than he is.


I'd rather have Bernier on that line, at least he throws big hits if he isn't scoring. Ah man.


And I would be shocked if Raymond stuck with the Twins. Seems like that isn't working at all, and Demitra and Raymond had some good chemistry at one point. I really thought Wellwood/Sedin/Sedin would get a shot but I guess with Wellwood creating offence pretty well at center means he is stuck in the middle, leaving us with the Raymond/Bernier fiasco on the top line.

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11-13-2008, 04:41 PM
  #66
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So assuming Raymond stays with the Twins I guess Bernier gets bumped to the 4th line? I'd honestly rather see Bernier with Demitra and Wellwood.
I'd rather see them just leave Bernier with the Sedins and let him get through the growing pains. There's obviously not going to be instant chemistry there, and there isn't with anyone else on our roster either... so why not just let them "learn" to play together through experience? In the end, the best thing for this team is for the Sedins and Bernier to find that chemistry and be a longterm intact line... instead of playing guys that are obvious non-fits with the Sedins - like Raymond - stick with what looks like the best fit, and let a couple of smart players and a trio of hard-workers figure out how to work best as a line.

IMO Raymond just doesn't fit well with the Sedins, and we're not getting the most of Raymond playing that role... you could stick Pyatt beside the Sedins and they would still be generating the same chances and playing as well as we've seen with Raymond... and Raymond looked so much better when he's on a line with at least one other player that creates off the rush. I just don't see the fit for Raymond on a cycle-line with the Sedins.

The lines I'd go with if everyone is back:

Sedin-Sedin-Bernier
Raymond-Wellwood-Demitra
Burrows-Kesler-Hansen
Hordichuk-Johnson-Pyatt

Rypien can go in when he's healthy, taking Hordichuk out (Pyatt-Johnson-Rypien IMO could be a solid 4th line).

the 2nd line is soft... and if they're against a team that can exploit that, you can move Pyatt up in such games... but Wellwood, IMO is better at center than Demitra is, who's best on the right wing.

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11-13-2008, 04:42 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post

Sedin-Sedin-Bernier
Raymond-Wellwood-Demitra
Burrows-Kesler-Hansen
Hordichuk-Johnson-Pyatt

Rypien can go in when he's healthy, taking Hordichuk out (Pyatt-Johnson-Rypien IMO could be a solid 4th line).

the 2nd line is soft... and if they're against a team that can exploit that, you can move Pyatt up in such games... but Wellwood, IMO is better at center than Demitra is, who's best on the right wing.
I like the way you think, mine would be the exact same.

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11-13-2008, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Burke's Evil Spirit View Post
The simple fact is, if Mike Brown brought anything this team "needs", he would not be average less than 6 minutes of ice-time a night.

The 4th line is noticeably less effective with his presence as opposed to Krog's. As someone pointed out in the game against the Wild, they were pinned into their own zone consistently by Minnesota's 4th line, consisting of such All-Stars such as Derek Boogaard and Craig Weller.
Seriously? This just wasn't the case. The 4th line was completely and totally ineffective because of Krog's lack of speed and grit. Krog is simply an awful fit on the fourth line as most here have noted. I won't argue that they were largely outworked in the Minnesota game because they were. IMO, that line on a night-to-night basis is going to be far more effective with Brown who can skate and get in on the forecheck than a guy like Krog who'll never produce offensively with the players he would be surrounded by.

I don't see how Brown is the consensus choice to go down. I think Michel Ouellet has to be the first to go. Its a non-issue until Nycholat comes off IR, but Ouellet has made it abundantly clear that he was an addition by subtraction for Tampa. In his first game he was unnoticeable and in his second game, he was noticeable for all the wrong reasons. His skating is far too poor for the NHL, he isn't physical, and he hasn't shown the puck skills that were supposed to be his only saving grace. If he is claimed off waivers, it would certainly be a loss for the moose, but for the big club, I'd rather see Grabner or Krog fill an offensive role, or Brown fill a checking role. When Rick Rypien does get healthy, assuming no one else has gone down, then Rypien is the obvious choice and Brown would be heading down. My lineup in the meantime would be:

Sedin-Sedin-Raymond
Bernier-Wellwood-Demitra
Burrows-Kesler-Hansen
Pyatt-Johnson-Hordichuk/Brown

The twins have got something going with Raymond, how much he has to do with I'm not sure, but I wouldn't mess with it right now. For the second line, I want to see what Wellwood can do with two wingers who can skate and handle the puck. Thrid line, no explanation necessary. Pyatt on the fourth line makes me nervous, but he deserves to be in the lineup and may have enough skill to get some production out of the line. On nights where Hordichuk is unnecessary (Colorado/Detroit), Brown can provide more speed and enough toughness.

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11-13-2008, 08:37 PM
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Demitra-Wellwood-Bernier would be a nice second line. Pyatt is garbage.

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11-13-2008, 08:39 PM
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I'm stoked to get Demitra back. I thought he was having his best game when he got injured. Hopefully he can slide back in and feel more comfortable than he looked the first few games.

I'd like to see the rejuvenated Raymond on his line though...Ideally I'd go with the lines nuckfan in TO said.

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11-13-2008, 10:43 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
The lines I'd go with if everyone is back:

Sedin-Sedin-Bernier
Raymond-Wellwood-Demitra
Burrows-Kesler-Hansen
Hordichuk-Johnson-Pyatt

.
I just see that second line as too "soft". Raymond is pretty good at retrieving loose pucks, but no one on that line is going to outmuscle a dman for a puck along the boards. that doesn't just hurt our offense, it also hurts when we're trying to get the puck out of our own zone. there's also noone on that line that will be able to create traffic in front of the net. you can't score in this league without getting people in front of the opponents net. they might generate the odd chance off the rush, but they wouldn't get many second chances and would have a shift a period where they get hemmed into their own zone.

Raymond has to be replaced by either Pyatt or Bernier. Pyatt has been the more consistant player this season, especially in his own zone. and him and Wellwood do seem to have some chemistry going. this also leaves Bernier available to go with the Sedins. sure, switch them up if neither line is going, but that's how I would start it.

I'm probably a minority of one here, but I'd put Raymond on the 4th line. that's not a slight on the way he's been playing, but rather because I think the way he has been playing could bring some offense to that unit. with the sedins there have been times where his ability to gain the zone or chase down a loose puck has looked like a good fit. but he doesn't play with enough patience on the puck, and tends to waste possession with shots that have zero chance of going in.

playing with the 4th line, he will be responsible for generating all the offence, which is kinda how he's playing anyway. play him with Brown and Johnson since both can skate and Johnson is solid defensively. the idea would be for the dmen to hit Raymond with a breakout pass, then Raymond could hold on to the puck while his linemates create havoc in front. Give Raymond some PP time, and maybe even some PK time, to keep his minutes up. he would still get the odd shift with Wellwood and Demitra as well, but always changing on the fly.

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Old
11-14-2008, 12:47 AM
  #72
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AV's interview sounds like he's intent on keeping Pyatt and Wellwood together for a while. I've been going over the lines though and I don't see how they would work. Maybe bring up Krog to replace Brown and try a 4th line of Raymond-Johnson-Krog? Seems like a waste of Raymond.

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11-14-2008, 12:48 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Respect Your Edler View Post
AV's interview sounds like he's intent on keeping Pyatt and Wellwood together for a while. I've been going over the lines though and I don't see how they would work. Maybe bring up Krog to replace Brown and try a 4th line of Raymond-Johnson-Krog? Seems like a waste of Raymond.
One of Bernier or Raymond will be wasted for Pyatt and his 2 goals to stay in our top 6.

AV really freakin' annoys me sometimes.

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11-14-2008, 12:56 AM
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It sounds like AV was a victim of Pyatt's pretty eyes.

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11-14-2008, 01:07 AM
  #75
Ernie
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wow, Bernier sure fell through the depth chart. Think he'll be on his 4th team in less than a year?

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