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Neck guard mandate

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Old
11-22-2008, 02:26 PM
  #51
MikeD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SyracuseBulldogs View Post
Do you not think that the sales are lower then they could/would be if it were certified?
It is my firm belief that if the products were put on the shelf in standard sizing, they would sell very well inside the USA, both goal and player forms. I also know that there is at least one Goalie Specialist store in Fort Erie, Ont that would, with out a doubt, stock them with the BNQ certification.One of the owners has handled the combo and liked what he saw with the exception of the missing BNQ label.

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11-22-2008, 02:55 PM
  #52
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They clearly would make the money it costs to certify and more.

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11-22-2008, 03:43 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SyracuseBulldogs View Post
Do you not think that the sales are lower then they could/would be if it were certified?
I just don't think that certification is the answer to every thing. Would you buy it if it was certified? I guess what I would like to know is....

If you were a parent, and you wanted to protect your child, would certification push you over the fence to purchase the product? Would that be the sole factor in your purchasing decision?

Now before you answer this question, keep this in mind. USA Hockey does not require neck guards to be certified.

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11-22-2008, 04:56 PM
  #54
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If you were a parent would you by anything that has not been certified by whatever safety body governs that product?

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11-22-2008, 05:55 PM
  #55
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The custom ordering only option is what is the biggest limit to sales. they need to be on the shelf(IMHO). Many pro shops in the local rinks even provide a LOANER to be tried out on the ice, for some products. The parent need only leave a DL or Keys to assure that the product is returned.

USA:

As a Parent I have to say yes but I was also a user as a goalie myself. I think the largest inhibitor is the fact that the product isn't available off the shelf. With many manufacturers who do only custom, per order work, they are relegated to a very small niche market. By providing a "stock" product in a range of sizing that can go on the shelf, with product in hand, purchases would increase rapidly. Soon to follow would be more custom orders as well as exponential sales increases as the product was seen and used on ice.

With todays understanding that a mandate is nearing for USA Hockey, lack of certification would have a negative affect on retail outlet sales. The cost of the item being above the others that do have certification will make them a risky choice.

Canadian:

With the Certification mandate, finding retail outlets is an impossibility. In all my past discussion with retailers north of the border, the lacking BNQ was the deal killer. other than that, all I spoke with were very interested in the idea of stocking products.

I believe that safety can be achieved with a line of stock size product that can go on the shelf at retailers, leaving the "custom order" system as a "stressed" secondary sales source. For instance, the slash guard that I purchased for my youngest son was a a 15" neck and 2" high collar. The "bib" being 6" to the front and 5 on each remaining size made a perfect fit easy from Mite Major through his Pee Wee Minor year. Too bad the rest of his gear couldn't perform as well. This one item had been with him beyond any other.

Its value to him? He has always packed his own bag and only once has it been left behind @ home. He has lost many items including a blocker but never the slash guard.

Mite major:


NOTE: It is here that he took a vicious intentional skate to the neck. IMHO the remaining photos would have never been taken...

Squirt Minor, just before the item was signed by Mika Norrenon, who seemed very interested in the collar. I also gave him a set of the Lace bite pads to replace the foam he was using in his skates.


Squirt Major w/ West Seneca Wings:


Pee Wee Minor w/ Hamburg Hawks:


Bantam Minor, where you could just start to see some neck exposure at the end of the season:





Bantam Minor: Tooo much skin showing for my confort...replaced with a new combo.



Bantam Major: Back to full coverage with the new combo but I think i will order him another with a 3" collar hight. I feel that the 3" hight is a level of protection for the goalie that is adequate, not over kill. IF they were on the shelf, I would already have done so.



Last edited by MikeD: 11-22-2008 at 06:11 PM.
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11-22-2008, 09:06 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SyracuseBulldogs View Post
If you were a parent would you by anything that has not been certified by whatever safety body governs that product?
Well, the fact of the matter is, the product has been tested for 10 years. If you go to the site and looked at all of the testimonials and then check it out the number of parents that have purchased the product...yes I would buy it!

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11-22-2008, 09:18 PM
  #57
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That wasn't the question I asked, but, based on your answer, you would be the type of parent who gets stuff for his kids based on endorsements rather then safety.

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11-22-2008, 09:23 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Headcoach View Post
Dude, I know where you are coming from, I have asked him the same question. However, The money that it takes to get certification is...well, out there. Too much for the normal small businessman to absorb.

Phil and I have been in the hockey industry for about 10 years. Both of us are out to make it in the hockey world.

But when it cost $5,000 dollars for a 1/4 page ad in any hockey magazine, it just doesn't stand to reason or justify the cost of spending that kind of money for an ad, when you can find other ways to market your product to more people with less money.

EDIT: There is one thing this thread has shown me, neck guards are important and I plan in using one. But I'm sticking to major companies with a certification, even if it's useless in the US. I refuse to buy a product from such a pompous ass like Mr. Maltese who would attack me when I ask difficult questions or make honest suggestions. And I promise I'll chime in in every thread with his reply when someone promotes Maltese's products. Excellent word of mouth marketing.

MikeD and Headcoach, thanks for your healp in clearing up all the confusion and making sense of the neck guards situation. Very usefull and helpful information that can help save lives. Maybe some businesses can follow in your footsteps.

For instance, did you know about this neck guard two weeks ago? If not, then we are getting the message across and promoting the product at the same time.

A lot of small businesses in the country rely on word of mouth advertising. That how they become the CCM's of the world. Then when we get to be that Nike/Bauer size, we can throw money away to pro's to market the product for us.

But for a small businessman, it hard to come up with the cash to give a pro $10,000 to wear the product. I'm pretty sure that when the pro who got his neck cut would have been wishing he was wearing that neck guard for FREE!

But, now that things have all calmed down, players forget what really happened and how this player almost lost his life. The only thing that saved him was that at his game, there were 30 doctors in the stand watching the game.

Here's a question for you. How many doctors will be in the stands for you game?

Certification....It has been product tested for over 10 years. Heck guards do not required certification here in the USA!

So let me ask you this next question.....

What you would rather have. A non-certified neck guard that will protect your neck from bleed out? Or,.....nothing?


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I agree with you, sorry if the question came off as harsh, but for a "small business man" with the intention of helping people, he's not helping his case by getting on mine. I was inches away from buying the Maltese piece, from what both you and MikeD have talked about it. But after a smart ass reply like that I have second guess my decision, and second guessed recommending the product. Havign a superior product is great and fantastic, but people won't just take your word for it. Certification might be expensive, but it will pay off in the long run. Think of it as an investment. I was making simple suggestions, maybe invest in a pro using it, or invest in giving a limited amount away to youth players. Yea, it cost money, but the key word is invest, which means you'll get back more than you put in. For him to snap back at me and question my motives justs goes to show what kind of person he is, and maybe his product is.

Like I specifically said in my post, it may be a great product, but certification helps the cause. He's telling me to put up or shut up, then spend the time, invest in a certification, and prove to everyone your product is superior. Get Kevin Weekes to make a commnt about it. Let one or two kids in a league use it for free and have their parents spread the word. It's absolutely pathetic that I give him constructive criticism and he attacks me for it. Do what you want Mr, Maltese, but your a small company, and you're going to stay that way with an attitude like that to people who want to see your product be successful. *******.

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11-22-2008, 09:35 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Philip Maltese View Post
Help me out here. Are you a "NYRsincebirth", are you a Canadian or do you live in the U.K.?

Why I don't get my unit certified? Well, for one, the unnecessary expense at this time. My pockets aren't deep like a lot of the other manufacturers. I have to spend my money wisely. I used to attend trade shows, but the expense did not outweigh my return. BNQ is a Canadian cert that has some American followers in Connecticut. My country does not require such a certification. On the other hand I did shell out the money to have a goalie mask with my gel HECC certified and it passed on it's first try, so I am familiar with the process.

Yeah. I tried to contact Zednik and Bourque when they got cut. I received no replies. I did chat with Clint about the item in question and he was positive and willing and had insight. One can only go so far to entice players to try your gear. I will not, can not, offer them cash awards or material compensation for them to use my product.

Kevin Weekes has been wearing my Combo since he was a Hurricane. We just made a Combo for UND's freshman goalie.

Thanks for the suggestion. I have donated lots of product to pros and such and it just doesn't work that way. A guy I used to know said one smart thing in the time I knew him and that was, "if they want it, they will call you." I've found this to be true. I have a host of pro teams using my Lace-Bite Pads. You don't think I've tried to get them into other products??

I'd like to know who you are in this business. Are you someone that is indeed in this industry or are you a citizen that thinks he knows what he's talking about?

BNQ certification is a joke. Hecc certification uses antiquated testing and that's why masks and helmets have EPP foam in them. The lead head form has no sensory touch/feel. It wouldn't care if the "padding" in a mask or helmet was made from concrete! Yeah, it passed the drop test, but will you?

You should understand that I have been doing this for the past ten years and have put a lot of thought, time and energy into this, whereas you sit at your pc offering me advice and suggestions on what I should do.

It's your neck, right? Do with it what you will and don't judge me because you know nothing of my efforts or courses I've taken to get my product recognized in this industry.

Tell ya what! You front me the money and I'll get that all important BNQ certification. How's that sound? I think they call it, put up or shut up. Yeah, you talk of donations. Donate to the fund for BNQ certification if it's that important to you.
Fantastic generic response. Working the reputation of the company by making a complete ass of yourself on a huge hockey board. I never said offer huge amounts of money, but you mention Weekes, maybe get a statement out of him? Who are you to say your product is better than others when it's not legally recognized as such? If I came out with a magic pill to cure a disease that worked, would you use it if it weren't FDA approved? How about donate 1-2 or maybe 4-5 of them to kids in various leagues and get the word out in each league? Sure it's an expense, but it's more of an investment than anything.

And the cert isn't as important to me as it is critical to you. The cert shows you reach/surpass a standard, the responsibility is on you, the manufacturer, to get certified, not me the customer. I don't know how many times I have to say I like and prefer your product, but that somethings need to be fulfilled to ever be successful as you want. Small business never get big when you are that narrow minded or ignorant to your market. Pathetic, and I'm sure losing me as a customer means nothing to you, but I'll make sure to chime in on how you respond to criticisms that are aimed to help you out when people mention your products. I truly hope you are just having a bad day and we can put this behind us, as I like your products, but you sir, are being a jackass.

EDIT: I think we got off on the wrong foot, in which case I'd like to apologize if I came or come across as an *******. I'm young and not in this business, but being a part of a small business in the past, it's obvious you will struggle if you are going to be so ignorant to think people will think your product is superior because you say so. For that, I'd like to start over, because I truly want to try out your piece. All your energy seems to be vested in the engineering aspect of making the best product available, which is admirable on all levels. But to totally disregard the business side will be your Achilles heal.


Last edited by NYRSinceBirth: 11-22-2008 at 09:43 PM.
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11-22-2008, 09:37 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD View Post


With todays understanding that a mandate is nearing for USA Hockey, lack of certification would have a negative affect on retail outlet sales. The cost of the item being above the others that do have certification will make them a risky choice.

Canadian:

With the Certification mandate, finding retail outlets is an impossibility. In all my past discussion with retailers north of the border, the lacking BNQ was the deal killer. other than that, all I spoke with were very interested in the idea of stocking products.
Thank you.

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11-22-2008, 11:06 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYRSinceBirth View Post
I agree with you, sorry if the question came off as harsh, but for a "small business man" with the intention of helping people, he's not helping his case by getting on mine. I was inches away from buying the Maltese piece, from what both you and MikeD have talked about it. But after a smart ass reply like that I have second guess my decision, and second guessed recommending the product. Havign a superior product is great and fantastic, but people won't just take your word for it. Certification might be expensive, but it will pay off in the long run. Think of it as an investment. I was making simple suggestions, maybe invest in a pro using it, or invest in giving a limited amount away to youth players. Yea, it cost money, but the key word is invest, which means you'll get back more than you put in. For him to snap back at me and question my motives justs goes to show what kind of person he is, and maybe his product is.

Like I specifically said in my post, it may be a great product, but certification helps the cause. He's telling me to put up or shut up, then spend the time, invest in a certification, and prove to everyone your product is superior. Get Kevin Weekes to make a commnt about it. Let one or two kids in a league use it for free and have their parents spread the word. It's absolutely pathetic that I give him constructive criticism and he attacks me for it. Do what you want Mr, Maltese, but your a small company, and you're going to stay that way with an attitude like that to people who want to see your product be successful. *******.
Well, to be honest, he does come off a little brazen sometimes, but I have know the man for the last year and have seen his struggle every where he turns. I don't think it's his attitude, more than the beating he gets every which way he turns.

He really a good man looking out for the health of kids. In fact, his kids play soccer, not hockey. He a goalie from the old school and he been playing hockey all his life. He just trying to make a product which is much superior then the average product.

I say this from experience. However, SyracuseBulldogs thinks that I would purchase any product on the market without checking it out is kind of crazy.

You see, this is what I do for a living, I run one of the largest Drill site in the world. With over 20,000 visitos a month and 700 coaching members that I help in 18 different countries.

Evrey thing on my site I sell, including Maltese products. When I recommend a product to a coach, I have done my job investigating the product to no end to make sure that what I promote on my site, doesn't come back to bit me in the end.

So you see, I willing to put my good name on his product because I know that it is backed up by a great man. This guy backs his product 100% and in today market place, it hard to find a manufacture willing to back his product if something shoulkd go wrong.

Does he get heated sometimes....yes, and so do I. But he's just one man trying to make a difference in the world.

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11-23-2008, 12:01 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
Nope, it is a league by league thing. Federation Hockey in NYS does not even require a player to wear gloves! Helmet/HECC is the only mandate. As far as I am aware, over 98% of USA Hockey Sanctioned youth leagues DO require a neck guard. That means that about 160,000 travel players put one on for every game. If you have never worn one, then I would imagine you have never made any travel team. When I see a player with out a neck guard I dont see cool, tough, rugged....I see FOOL!

What are the odds of being struck by lightning? Very slim but do you stand under a tree in a lightning storm anyway? It only takes ONCE to end your life....
I said that you have to wear one in High School hockey, and about 99.99% of kids in my league don't wear neck guards. And yes, I have never made a travel team, but miraculously made a Junior A team.

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11-23-2008, 12:11 AM
  #63
kyle evs48
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Originally Posted by RangersAM99 View Post
just found out from my high school coach that we have to wear them, never worn one gonna be mad gay

edit: what high school do you go to i might be playing you
Sorry it took me so long to come back to this thread. Indian Hills, in North Jersey.

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11-23-2008, 01:55 AM
  #64
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Well, to be honest, he does come off a little brazen sometimes, but I have know the man for the last year and have seen his struggle every where he turns. I don't think it's his attitude, more than the beating he gets every which way he turns.

He really a good man looking out for the health of kids. In fact, his kids play soccer, not hockey. He a goalie from the old school and he been playing hockey all his life. He just trying to make a product which is much superior then the average product.

I say this from experience. However, SyracuseBulldogs thinks that I would purchase any product on the market without checking it out is kind of crazy.

You see, this is what I do for a living, I run one of the largest Drill site in the world. With over 20,000 visitos a month and 700 coaching members that I help in 18 different countries.

Evrey thing on my site I sell, including Maltese products. When I recommend a product to a coach, I have done my job investigating the product to no end to make sure that what I promote on my site, doesn't come back to bit me in the end.

So you see, I willing to put my good name on his product because I know that it is backed up by a great man. This guy backs his product 100% and in today market place, it hard to find a manufacture willing to back his product if something shoulkd go wrong.

Does he get heated sometimes....yes, and so do I. But he's just one man trying to make a difference in the world.

Head coach
And that's probably his best asset at the moment. It's the reason his business is even afloat in the industry. You would never be able to compete if you make run of the mill stuff, the larger companies simply have to large of a market share. Not to mention the industry of hockey equipment is unique in itself, being very hard to be successful. It's the fact that he does make a better product, and gives a **** about it's quality that makes Maltese attractive. But the major problem is the business side, and if that's not fixed or adjusted Maltese will be a have been we can look back on.

Like it or not, Maltese has to do more, and that's not necessarily a bad thing. He's not selling Ferrari's, a small business can't rely on people calling them. You have to be proactive then let the product speak for itself. Get the certification, it takes away a tremendous barrier for sales. Give a few away, I'm not talking 100s of pieces, maybe just a handful. See how people react then work off word of mouth. Have someone on here unrelated to the company make a review. Relentlessly offer or ask pros to try out things and ask for feedback (Kevin Weekes is a perfect example of this, get him to get some other goalies to try it out if he likes it so much, see what he has to say about it). It's not easy, but that's the business. Just making a great product simply isn't good enough (Same goes for lashing out on a huge hockey message board that is the perfect mediator for more business, especially from guys like you and MikeD). I could go on, but I've veered far enough off topic, if he wants an opinion (Yes, I'm very young, still in university, but I have helped start and make successful two small businesses in New Jersey, so I must be doing something right), PM is always available. But I'm certain he knows everything I'm going to say, but I would be a proponent to his products on these boards if he could learn to be more personable (Mr. Maltese seems to have gotten ahead of himself in his image of his company). Like I said, I apologize for snapping back, but it's a message board and it's hard to tell where people are coming from sometimes.

Back on topic, I'm actively looking around for neck guards now. If they're ungodly uncomfortable then I'm giving them up for good, but it's more than worth a try to pick one up.

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11-25-2008, 05:53 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by GongShowHockeyNYR View Post
I said that you have to wear one in High School hockey, and about 99.99% of kids in my league don't wear neck guards. And yes, I have never made a travel team, but miraculously made a Junior A team.
Federation is one of the most well known HIGH SCHOOL HOCKEY League in NYS. Anyone who has played hockey in NYS knows Federation. They even trump any travel league in schedule conflicts. Most H.S. leagues (USA) do NOT mandate neck protection. The mandates are now happening because of recent skate cut injuries that were high profile. Playing JR. A does not mean much in regards to signifying a high skill level. My comment about your not making travel was not a swipe at your level of skill. Just at your level of experience...

There was a time when 100% of the Hockey players went with out mask or helmet. Times change as people become more interested in plying their trade for as long as possible, regardless of peer pressure. Peer pressure should be the LEAST of a players concern yet its brought to bear against each other constantly. Makes no sense really, does it?


As was discussed earlier....the higher the skill level, the less risk of skate cut injury there is. It is understandable that Juniors and above do not YET have a mandate to wear the item. The incident is low and risk marginal. However, who wants to be the DEAD GUY that becomes the impetus for the change to mandated neck protection? As long as you go unprotected, your name remains on the list of "whos it gonna be" because it WILL HAPPEN. Thats you can be sure of, for as long as there are players who worry more about what peers may think than they do about their own personal safety.

"a stupid person learns nothing from their mistakes and is doomed to repeat them. A smart person learns much and rarely repeats them. A WISE person learns from OTHERS mistakes."

Which are you?

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11-25-2008, 06:53 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by NYRSinceBirth View Post
Like it or not, Maltese has to do more, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
DO NOT THANK ME as if I am supporting you or that my opinion supports your concept. I stipulate RETAIL SALES. This is not the direction that Maltese is going. Phil wants his products to FIT the user. He just doesnt choose to be like the rest of the industry. The man cares about hockey people and those who are going to use his products. His concept of doing this best means a custom, order by order basis. I dont have his heart. I would put em out there mass produced. Let the user find one close enough, take your money and forget about you, just like all the major players in the hockey gear industry. Better yet, have them made in Indo-China, ship them into the US for pennies on the dollar and GET FREAKING RICH!

You fail to look at his business model before passing your judgement on him....
I undestand your point of view(RETAIL) but you dont have the information to pass such a judgement. You can not disrespect the man and not expect a response less than you received. I would have probably been much more heated but most who know me, understand I have very little tolerance for disrespect. Imagine putting out the kind of effort you speak of and obsorbing the costs associated with it, only to have the pros basically take your product and USE IT with out so much as a thank you. TOTAL LOSS...wait, Phil explained that yet you feel he should keep going back to them for more abuse? Do you have any idea how much money has gone down that rat hole?

Imagine your personal finances taking the brunt of this, trying to build something that is desperately needed in the industry, to have those inside the industry who know the need, rip you to shreds for no cause and then keep plugging along at it. All this while, your family, your wife and children, do with less while you keep working toward your goal. Then to pop onto a forum to have some snot nosed kid rip into you telling you how to spend you money?

Imagine you have two choices.....continue to barely manage to stay afloat with custom orders putting every dime back into the company and NOT turning a profit while you continue to try and make a difference OR Submit for BNQ certification risking a total financial tank of what you have worked so hard at for a decade or longer.

And then having someone who has but a casual understanding pass judgement and tell you what you MUST do. That is one of the great things about Mr. Phil Maltese. He is straight forward, no BS and he will tell you like it is. He wont shine you on and behind your back speak of you poorly. You get the straight up. It may not be PC but being PC is being a poser and being less than respectable.

He told you..put up or shut up....nothing wrong with that. He didnt come here asking for any of this or to make sales...just answer questions and offer his opinion on a topic (neck protection and hockey) that he, above ALL others is familiar with and you attempt to make him look like a bad guy? Its wrong and your dead wrong. You do not know the man well enough to assume what is his best asset. To offer an apology but with stipulation is no apology and then to take further slaps at the guy...incredible.

The direction this topic went disgusts me. Here is a guy whos product has probably saved a few lives already and he gets treated like this? Those of you who disagree with the mandate for neck protection should be thanking the guy! It is very likely that his product has forestalled the inevitable. I would bet that had it been MY SON that day, the mandate would have been written 5 years ago and this would all be moot! doubt all you like....100 lbs behind a skate blade traveling at about 20 mph slams into your neck, drives you into an NHL net, knocking it off its moorings, all with skate blade still against your neck. Enough force to then spin that goal frame and you around and slam into the end boards....that is one life saved because of the Maltese Slash guard. Maltese needs to DO MORE? NO....THE REAL NEED IS FOR THE HOCKEY WORLD TO GET ITS HEAD OUT OF THE SAND before a life IS LOST. WE ALL NEED THIS.

BACK ON TOPIC:

Purchase a Maltese Guard and you wont have to wonder or "give up" when you find nothing else that fits your needs....you will get exactly what works best, what will fit you best and is the most comfortable, most durable available on the market. I sure wished I had. I purchased 7 or 8 different goal neck guards at costs from 65.00 to 110.00 US as well as 4 lexan danglers, over the years, (60.00 US EACH) to end up giving away(the neck guards) before I found the Maltese product.


Last edited by MikeD: 11-25-2008 at 07:14 PM.
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Old
11-26-2008, 03:39 PM
  #67
Bluefan75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SyracuseBulldogs View Post
That wasn't the question I asked, but, based on your answer, you would be the type of parent who gets stuff for his kids based on endorsements rather then safety.
Last time I checked, most items that are certified "safe" did come with a $20,000 annual fee in order to remain being called "safe.'

Seriously, if the BNQ is the be all and end all of "what is safe", then why do they charge a manufacturuer $20,000 per year in order to keep that logo on there?

This is about safety about as much as Brittney Spears is about original music.

I suppose we could say you are the type of parent who doesn't have any judgment of their own?

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11-26-2008, 05:17 PM
  #68
Old Time Sauce
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when you have to wear a next guard, just take out a pocket knife and just cut it right down the middle and tape it back up .... i'm in a league where its mandated and it was bugging me so i did that and i hardly notice it now

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Old
11-26-2008, 11:37 PM
  #69
Superfly Jimmy Snuka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GongShowHockeyNYR View Post
only benders wear neckguards.......but everyone has to wear one for HS Hockey as I know. If you see anyone in Juniors wearing neckguards, kids a bender.
yep every kid in the OHL is a bender....

i play junior and dont have to wear one although if i had to its not like nobody hasnt worn one growing up..

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