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#16 -- Flyers at Canadiens -- November 15, 2008 -- 7:00 PM (ET)

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11-17-2008, 07:35 PM
  #626
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**** Campbell is frustrating. That he even brought up first time offender vs repeat offender proves he isn't doing his job. Ruutu doesn't deserve more than 3 games for a flying elbow because he's never been suspended for a head shot before? That's ********.

If I was an NHL disciplinarian, my suspensions would be very clear:

First hit to the head - minimum 5 game suspension - number of games increase due to intent and seriousness of injury occurring on the play.

Second hit to the head - minimum 15 game suspension - same rules apply to increase number of games suspended.

Third hit to the head - banned from the NHL - playing in the NHL is a privilege. If you're dumb enough to inititiate a head shot three times, you deserve to be banned.

I don't want to see players scale back their aggressiveness because they're afraid of being punished, but I do want to see the players protected by the league.

There's also obvious subjectivity to varying the number of games as a punishment, but the players clearly have little to no respect for each other; without something written in stone, they won't change. And when you have Simon Gagne ready to police the matter himself, you know there are serious problems with supplemental discipline in the NHL.

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11-18-2008, 10:50 AM
  #627
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Holmgren sides with Campbell on this issue...

Quote:
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/...heap_shot.html

Flyers general manager Paul Holmgren saw the memo, as did every other GM in the league and most players, and agreed with the position.

But when it came to Kovalev's hit on Gagne, a late shoulder hit to the head, Holmgren agreed with the league's position that it was not the kind of hit they were referring to.

Holmgren said he didn't see the hit until Sunday night, when the Flyers played Atlanta at the Wachovia Center.

"I talked to Colin Campbell just because when I talked to [coach John Stevens] after the game, he told me that Simon was upset," Holmgren said. "So I called [Campbell], we talked and they looked at it, and in their opinion, it was not a bad hit.

"I think he said it was a little bit late, but it was one of those things," Holmgren said. "And because of the player - it's Kovalev, he's not that kind of player - and in this case, he doesn't have time to react one way or the other.

"It was not an elbow," Holmgren said. "I have a lot of trouble calling that a head shot."

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11-18-2008, 12:19 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Holmgren sides with Campbell on this issue...
I'd love to know how that wasn't a head shot.

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11-18-2008, 01:22 PM
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Holmgren sides with Campbell on this issue...
Holmgren makes two statements in one:

Quote:
"It was not an elbow," Holmgren said. "I have a lot of trouble calling that a head shot."
It may not have been an elbow, but it was definitely a shot to the head.

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11-18-2008, 01:22 PM
  #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Holmgren sides with Campbell on this issue...
Quote:
Originally Posted by opus View Post
I'd love to know how that wasn't a head shot.
Are we really shocked? It's the "old school" entrenched attitude from the 70s and 80s--the people currently in management roles in the NHL--that is the problem with legislating against that stuff. Holmgren is a direct descendant of that group and is, of course, going to share their values.

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11-18-2008, 01:28 PM
  #631
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Oh c'mon, Holmgren whined and complained last year when Hartnell got suspended and then again when Cote did too, and I don't think he was even really on board with the Jones suspension. If it was a big deal I'm sure Holmgren would side with his player. He probably has the same feeling I did "keep your head up."

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11-18-2008, 01:57 PM
  #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Oh c'mon, Holmgren whined and complained last year when Hartnell got suspended and then again when Cote did too, and I don't think he was even really on board with the Jones suspension. If it was a big deal I'm sure Holmgren would side with his player. He probably has the same feeling I did "keep your head up."
He whined and complained because it truly looked like the Flyers were being singled out by Campbell, not necessarily because of the hits themselves. Not to mention the fact that the Hartnell/Alberts hit was an odd sequence of events in and of itself.

And that hit wasn't that big a deal, but it was late (which Campbell himself admitted), and it was a blow to Gagne's head...which makes it a head shot by any definition of a blow to the head.

To quote Campbell's memo:

"We cannot and will not tolerate blows to the head that are deliberate, avoidable and illegal."

Well, the old guard is tolerating them...consistently. Now, guys are always going to take shots to the head playing this sport; that's just the nature of things. However, when a guy delivers a late hit and the blow is directly high it should be something they give out suspensions for. You don't wait for the really ugly ones, you take it out at the lower level first.

All of this is a laissez faire attitude with regard to this crap that just needs to stop. It was an illegal and dangerous hit...act like it was. Was it a 20 game hit? No. But you know what? They don't act like 20-game hits are that big a deal. Randy Jones should have missed 20 games for that hit on Bergeron...Why? Because we just saw Tom Kostopoulos (your boy) do the exact same thing to Van Ryn...and, once again, only get a 3-gamer. It's a joke, and it's going to end in someone getting seriously, seriously hurt. It's epidemic and all connected.

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11-18-2008, 02:09 PM
  #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
He whined and complained because it truly looked like the Flyers were being singled out by Campbell, not necessarily because of the hits themselves. Not to mention the fact that the Hartnell/Alberts hit was an odd sequence of events in and of itself.
That's because they kept doing stupid things that were suspension worthy and it got to the point where the NHLPA was on board with the league TO single them out.

Quote:
And that hit wasn't that big a deal, but it was late (which Campbell himself admitted), and it was a blow to Gagne's head...which makes it a head shot by any definition of a blow to the head.

To quote Campbell's memo:

"We cannot and will not tolerate blows to the head that are deliberate, avoidable and illegal."

Well, the old guard is tolerating them...consistently. Now, guys are always going to take shots to the head playing this sport; that's just the nature of things. However, when a guy delivers a late hit and the blow is directly high it should be something they give out suspensions for. You don't wait for the really ugly ones, you take it out at the lower level first.

All of this is a laissez faire attitude with regard to this crap that just needs to stop. It was an illegal and dangerous hit...act like it was. Was it a 20 game hit? No. But you know what? They don't act like 20-game hits are that big a deal. Randy Jones should have missed 20 games for that hit on Bergeron...Why? Because we just saw Tom Kostopoulos (your boy) do the exact same thing to Van Ryn...and, once again, only get a 3-gamer. It's a joke, and it's going to end in someone getting seriously, seriously hurt. It's epidemic and all connected.
Randy Jones was not a 20-game suspension, and neither was Kostopoulos.

If it was something that shouldn't be tolerated, then I'm sure Holmgren would have come out vehemently against it like he has in the past. The fact that not only did he not even suggest there should be a suspension, let alone not even call it a head shot, going as far as saying Kovalev doesn't have a questionable record of hits (which he does) is evidence in its self that this is a major overreaction and people here are just pissed because it happened to their beloved Gagne that since he had a concussion last year, he shouldn't be touched. This got a bigger reaction from fans here than when Karel Rachunek elbowed Gagne in the back of the head last year, which was a far worse play (which I believe is the reason Gagne missed the rest of the season), and if I recall, the team did go after Rachunek for it.

We've had one media member go as far as give his own opinion about it. There wasn't a 700+ reply thread about it, and there wasn't a segment on TSN about it (as far as I know, because Bob McKenzie almost always comments on this stuff, sometimes twice). Maybe another reason why no one went after Kovalev was because the rest of the team didn't feel there was a reason to.

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11-18-2008, 02:19 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Randy Jones was not a 20-game suspension, and neither was Kostopoulos.
Those are the single most dangerous, stupid, reckless, and irresponsible hits in the sport of hockey. Moreover, they were both completely avoidable if the player showed an ounce of recognition for the fact that he was putting another human being's well-being in danger. Those hits--high speed collisions from behind--are the ones that are going to end with a player paralyzed or dead at some point. If ANY hit is worthy of a 20-game suspension, it's those hits. The fact that they haven't come down harder on them is a gross miscarriage of responsibility and continues to place every player on the ice at grave risk while those hits continue to happen.

If you don't think those hits are 20-game+ suspension worthy for the sake of protecting players, then you should opine that the suspension system should just be removed from the sport.

As far as why Holmgren would be careful about vehemently coming out about anything...he doesn't want to get fined.

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11-18-2008, 02:36 PM
  #635
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He doesn't want to get fined? He's the GM of the Flyers, who are owned by Comcast. When has this team ever given a damn about what the league thinks of them?

What are they going to do? Fine the team whose owners provide their TV contract? That would be like if I owed you a drink and you left the tip. This is a team who willingly broke NHL rules for Ron Hextall night. Fines? They don't care about fines. Doesn't want to get fined? Seriously? It would be almost irrelevant.

If there was any question whatsoever, either Holmgren would leave a veiled comment, or he would let it all out. I'm sure one of his star players would appreciate it since Holmgren is the one who instructed his players to talk to the media about it.

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11-18-2008, 03:11 PM
  #636
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Just because a player has their head down doesn't mean they should be subject to a direct head shot. Sorry, I can't agree with that.

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11-18-2008, 03:11 PM
  #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Those are the single most dangerous, stupid, reckless, and irresponsible hits in the sport of hockey. Moreover, they were both completely avoidable if the player showed an ounce of recognition for the fact that he was putting another human being's well-being in danger. Those hits--high speed collisions from behind--are the ones that are going to end with a player paralyzed or dead at some point. If ANY hit is worthy of a 20-game suspension, it's those hits. The fact that they haven't come down harder on them is a gross miscarriage of responsibility and continues to place every player on the ice at grave risk while those hits continue to happen.

If you don't think those hits are 20-game+ suspension worthy for the sake of protecting players, then you should opine that the suspension system should just be removed from the sport.

As far as why Holmgren would be careful about vehemently coming out about anything...he doesn't want to get fined.
I do agree that the league is too leniant on certian types of hits. the checking from behind hits into the boards. The thing I have a problem with is players are now being taught to turn with their numbers facing twords the oncoming player in attempt to draw a penalty. Not saying that was the case with TK's hit on Van Ryn, but its a problem that needs to be corrected by coaches. The player delivering the hit is not always at fault. I realize there is that fine line where a player has time to see a player in a vulnerable position and has time to stop and doesnt have time to stop.
Anyone remember Lindros's hit on Dackell? How would a hit like that be looked upon today.
As far as Holmgren not wanting to be fined I am not buying that, Comcast bleeds money, they can cover whatever fines Holmgren would get by going off.
There was no need for the Flyers to retaliate after Gagne got hit by Kovalev. Players have long memories and if someone wants payback there will be plenty of opportunites. Of course any kind of similar hit a Flyer does would be deemed illegal by the canadain press.
Funny how 2 players on canadian teams have already been suspended and TSN is basically sweeping them under the rug with their selective memory.

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11-18-2008, 03:45 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
Just because a player has their head down doesn't mean they should be subject to a direct head shot. Sorry, I can't agree with that.
That's the whole idea over the lack of guidelines over it. Gary Bettman directly cited Zdneo Chara when asked about this in the offseason. Any hit Zdneo Chara gives could be deemed a head shot since he's 6-10 inches taller than some players in the league.

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11-18-2008, 03:51 PM
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That Kovalev hit could have been easily avoidable. I think if Simon was upset about the hit (as per the story provided) Holmgrem has a responsibility to defend his player.

This story is a dissapointment, and I feel the leagues bias towards the Flyers rears it's ugly head again.

If is was the other way round and Gagne laid out Kovalev, he would have been suspended. I fully believe that.

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11-18-2008, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
That's the whole idea over the lack of guidelines over it. Gary Bettman directly cited Zdneo Chara when asked about this in the offseason. Any hit Zdneo Chara gives could be deemed a head shot since he's 6-10 inches taller than some players in the league.
What does this have to do with the Kovalev hit on Gagne?

Kovalev - 6'1"
Gagne - 6'0"

There's a difference if a guy checks a player and his shoulder comes through the guys chest, and then his head...rather then mainly focusing on the head itself. That's exactly what Kovalev did.

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11-18-2008, 03:57 PM
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It's the example of why you can't just outlaw every single head shot because you're making something black and white that's impossible to be black and white. Then you're going to have players putting their heads down on purpose to draw penalties and suspensions someone will be just as likely to get seriously hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
That Kovalev hit could have been easily avoidable. I think if Simon was upset about the hit (as per the story provided) Holmgren has a responsibility to defend his player.
Which shows how much of a big deal this particular incident is not, because he chose not to. I'm sure if it was Bob Gainey he would talk about it more as to why, but that wasn't necessary.

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11-18-2008, 04:00 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
All of this is a laissez faire attitude with regard to this crap that just needs to stop. It was an illegal and dangerous hit...act like it was. Was it a 20 game hit? No. But you know what? They don't act like 20-game hits are that big a deal. Randy Jones should have missed 20 games for that hit on Bergeron...Why? Because we just saw Tom Kostopoulos (your boy) do the exact same thing to Van Ryn...and, once again, only get a 3-gamer. It's a joke, and it's going to end in someone getting seriously, seriously hurt. It's epidemic and all connected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Those are the single most dangerous, stupid, reckless, and irresponsible hits in the sport of hockey. Moreover, they were both completely avoidable if the player showed an ounce of recognition for the fact that he was putting another human being's well-being in danger. Those hits--high speed collisions from behind--are the ones that are going to end with a player paralyzed or dead at some point. If ANY hit is worthy of a 20-game suspension, it's those hits. The fact that they haven't come down harder on them is a gross miscarriage of responsibility and continues to place every player on the ice at grave risk while those hits continue to happen.
In the case of both the Jones hit and the Kostopolous hit...the victim contributed to the disaster by not putting themselves in a better position in case someone was approaching. Don't get me wrong, I would have liked to see both Jones and Kostopolous be more careful, but the contributing factor of the victim's action can't be overlooked. It happened moreso with Van Ryn, where he really tried to do a quick and strange kind of little duck/turn sort of thing at the very last split-second.

When you say things like...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Those are the single most dangerous, stupid, reckless, and irresponsible hits in the sport of hockey.
and...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If ANY hit is worthy of a 20-game suspension, it's those hits.
...you're generalizing too much. Every single hit is different, you can't lump them together and say "those hits." There is tons of physical contact and bodychecks made in every NHL game that is technically "from behind." I don't think I need to point out how often it happens...how often players get thumped straight in the numbers and put into the glass. There are players who make the same kind of play Kostopolous did every night, in every NHL game...but we're not talking about them because the player they hit put themselves in a better position than Van Ryn did. Again, I think Kostopolous should have shown more caution, and I think throughout the league players need to proceed with more caution in those situations. But I think that's about as far as you can take it without detracting from the sport.

The truth is, as you suggested, some player may very well end up paralyzed or even dead as a result of a hit made from behind someday. But if that happens, it will more than likely be due in part to a stupid action by the victim. Sounds awful, but it's the truth of the matter. And if it does indeed go down that way...as horrible as it will be, it still won't be a reason to drastically change the rules. The only way you could hope to guarantee avoidance of such an incident would be by removing physical contact initiated from behind from the game altogether. And how would you really even do such a thing?

All players initiating contact with another from behind need to make more of a cautious effort. At the same time, all players need to always try to be as aware as possible of potential impending doom when they head towards the boards with their back turned. You can't be as aggressive as Kostopolous was, and you can't get cute and try to make a fancy play to avoid the hit like Van Ryn did.

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11-18-2008, 04:06 PM
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This belongs in this thread...


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11-18-2008, 04:14 PM
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This belongs in this thread...

Who did Richards lay out anyway?

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11-18-2008, 04:18 PM
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Who did Richards lay out anyway?
I believe it was Higgins.

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11-18-2008, 04:23 PM
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I believe it was Higgins.
Shame.

I wish it was Kovalev or Plekanec

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11-18-2008, 04:54 PM
  #647
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He doesn't want to get fined? He's the GM of the Flyers, who are owned by Comcast. When has this team ever given a damn about what the league thinks of them?

What are they going to do? Fine the team whose owners provide their TV contract? That would be like if I owed you a drink and you left the tip. This is a team who willingly broke NHL rules for Ron Hextall night. Fines? They don't care about fines. Doesn't want to get fined? Seriously? It would be almost irrelevant.

If there was any question whatsoever, either Holmgren would leave a veiled comment, or he would let it all out. I'm sure one of his star players would appreciate it since Holmgren is the one who instructed his players to talk to the media about it.
I think you have a general lack of understanding of how corporate finances work...It's also a big assumption that Holmgren wants to expose his own personal bank account to a fine. Comcast would not necessarily just pick that tab up for a variety of reasons.

So, yes, the GM of the Flyers isn't going to just go out and flame Campbell recklessly just because he's the GM of the Flyers.

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I do agree that the league is too leniant on certian types of hits. the checking from behind hits into the boards. The thing I have a problem with is players are now being taught to turn with their numbers facing twords the oncoming player in attempt to draw a penalty. Not saying that was the case with TK's hit on Van Ryn, but its a problem that needs to be corrected by coaches. The player delivering the hit is not always at fault. I realize there is that fine line where a player has time to see a player in a vulnerable position and has time to stop and doesnt have time to stop.
Anyone remember Lindros's hit on Dackell? How would a hit like that be looked upon today.
As far as Holmgren not wanting to be fined I am not buying that, Comcast bleeds money, they can cover whatever fines Holmgren would get by going off.
There was no need for the Flyers to retaliate after Gagne got hit by Kovalev. Players have long memories and if someone wants payback there will be plenty of opportunites. Of course any kind of similar hit a Flyer does would be deemed illegal by the canadain press.
Funny how 2 players on canadian teams have already been suspended and TSN is basically sweeping them under the rug with their selective memory.
We're past coaches correcting this, and I'm fully aware of the offensive player turning into the boards situation, which wasn't the case in either the Jones-Bergeron or Kostopoulos-Van Ryn hits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It's the example of why you can't just outlaw every single head shot because you're making something black and white that's impossible to be black and white. Then you're going to have players putting their heads down on purpose to draw penalties and suspensions someone will be just as likely to get seriously hurt.
There's already black-and-white legislation in the game. There are legal, and illegal hits, something everyone understands. If you get your head knocked off with a legal check out there, those are the risks you assume. When you deliver an illegal hit that severely injures someone, then you should suffer consequences...and for some of these hits the consequences should be severe; the stakes are far too high.

Quote:
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In the case of both the Jones hit and the Kostopolous hit...the victim contributed to the disaster by not putting themselves in a better position in case someone was approaching. Don't get me wrong, I would have liked to see both Jones and Kostopolous be more careful, but the contributing factor of the victim's action can't be overlooked. It happened moreso with Van Ryn, where he really tried to do a quick and strange kind of little duck/turn sort of thing at the very last split-second.
BS...that's absolute BS. Jones and Kostopoulos were never in a position to deliver a legal hit on the player they ran through the wall. If you are trailing the player down the ice you cannot come in at full speed and assume he's going to present the opportunity for you to deliver a legal hit to the guy...that very attitude is what is going to lead to someone getting paralyzed or killed. The rules are there for a reason...abide by 'em or suffer accordingly.

And in the case of these hits from behind...it needs to stop. A concussion basically leads to permanent brain damage based on the studies that have been put out. Sure you can recover to some extent, but pretty much everything says the ramifications of a concussion are permanent to one extent or another...it's borderline criminal how little the NHL/NHLPA seem to care about this stuff. Van Ryn is out at minimum a month, right? Bergeron missed more than half the season...3 games? Gimme a break.

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11-18-2008, 05:27 PM
  #648
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BS...that's absolute BS. Jones and Kostopoulos were never in a position to deliver a legal hit on the player they ran through the wall.
BS...that's absolute BS, right back atcha. I'm sure I could dig up clips to demonstrate my point, but it doesn't seem necessary at all considering the commonality and frequency with which the plays that would demonstrate my point occur. With plenty of regularity, in every NHL game, players are taken hard into the glass from behind. It happens all the time. And it's not a penalty. If Bergeron and Van Ryn do what Jones and Kostopolous expected them to do, we're not talking about either play...no one even remembers either play because it's a completely ordinary play that happens all the time in hockey. Again, I don't think that should altogether excuse Jones and Kostopolous from their actions...I do think there should be some accountability, and I do think all players need to be more cautious about it.

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Gimme a break.
Ok, but only a small one.

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11-18-2008, 05:39 PM
  #649
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Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
BS...that's absolute BS, right back atcha. I'm sure I could dig up clips to demonstrate my point, but it doesn't seem necessary at all considering the commonality and frequency with which the plays that would demonstrate my point occur. With plenty of regularity, in every NHL game, players are taken hard into the glass from behind. It happens all the time. And it's not a penalty. If Bergeron and Van Ryn do what Jones and Kostopolous expected them to do, we're not talking about either play...no one even remembers either play because it's a completely ordinary play that happens all the time in hockey. Again, I don't think that should altogether excuse Jones and Kostopolous from their actions...I do think there should be some accountability, and I do think all players need to be more cautious about it.
And right there you reach the illogical point of view as far as legislating against these things happening. People are never going to act exactly as they're "supposed to" in anything, let alone a high speed game like hockey where players are buzzing around at 35 mph. Randy Jones literally took skating strides and moved himself even more behind Bergeron on that hit.

Similar to driving a car, when you're behind someone it's YOUR responsibility when the collision occurs. You cannot ASSUME the person in front of you is going to act in a fashion where everything ends well, that's how someone ends up in the hospital.

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11-18-2008, 06:00 PM
  #650
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Similar to driving a car, when you're behind someone it's YOUR responsibility when the collision occurs. You cannot ASSUME the person in front of you is going to act in a fashion where everything ends well, that's how someone ends up in the hospital.
And right there you've reached an illogical analogy. Lol...it's not similar to that at all. When I'm in my car, I'm not driving around and throwing bodychecks into other cars by smashing into them. Although the thought of that is pretty hilarious. When I smash into somebody from the side or head-on, the officer doesn't say, "no problem, that was a legal accident. Good hit, good accident."

If Randy Jones was never allowed at any point to make contact with Bergeron any which way, then I would certainly have more of a problem with what he did, and the car analogy would be relevant. In turn, if I was allowed to smash into other cars on the road(and maybe steal from them a giant hockey puck that they are pushing ), then I would follow them pretty closely sometimes, even if I was coming up from behind them. If they were driving towards the guardrail, I'd try and take them hard into it, and give them a good bump....just like hockey players take other hockey players hard into the glass all the time. But if at the last second, the car made some kind of strangefangled maneuver and tried to fancily duck around my car like a dummy...I might wind up flattening their car into the guardrail. It would be unfortunate, and the police may even have to suspend my license for a few days. There, now the analogy works.

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