Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
What? You are a newbi hockey fan, I have had enough of this thread.
You must be new as well. Have you not seen hockey players get "smarter" as they mature? See Mike Modano. Or Rick Nash. A fresh-faced Rob Blake used to run around out of position all the time. They weren't known for being cerebral players entering the league as youngsters. A players hockey sense can improve with some teaching and maturity. What you can't teach is skill, size and determination.
HAHA, you can say all the things you want about my posts but this one takes the cake and shows who I am arguing with. Hockey sense is a nack, Drew Doughty has it, Mike Richards has it and Zach Parise has it. You don't develop it, you just have it. Some people just understand the game. Thats not saying he can't be effective without it but the game doesn't come as easily. Like I said before many players aren't overly smart but solid coaching will help.
Jack Johnson has always had the knack. He may not think the game as well as Doughty does at such an early age, but defense more than anything is something you learn. At the same age many thought of Komisarek as a bust because he was having a rough time defensively. Look at him now, one of the top defensive defensemen in the league. Jack will be too, in time, but his offense will make him a star sooner than later.
His problem has been over-aggression and everyone knows it. It's precisely the reason USA Hockey took Lee over him for the WJCs during their draft year. USA Hockey (more specifically, the NTDP) held him back more with the U-18 team, but Michigan gave him full reign to run loose. He and Hunwick could do whatever they wanted, Michigan played like they had five forwards out there and they got burned a lot because of it. They did put up a lot of offense though, which is Jack's style. Run-and-gun free-wheeling offense, with a hard-hitting, but sacrificial defensive game.
Jack runs around a lot in his zone right now, but he's already begun to calm down since his last year at Michigan. He's also bulked up quite a bit, over 20 lbs since he was drafted. That's a big change, 10 lbs since last year. It's easy to tear him down now because he's not playing, but when he comes back he will make more progress this year, guaranteed. He's stronger and will be more effective defensively.
He's obviously not been an overnight success, but a player with his skating, slap shot, wrist shot (better than most forwards'), passing ability, open-ice hitting, and tough in-your-face style isn't just going to top-out as 2nd pairing guy. Especially not since he's just 20 years old learning to play defense in the NHL.
If your memories are too foggy for the early Komisarek years, just look at Luke Schenn now, the kid makes mistakes every single game yet he's glorified non-stop. Is he going to make those mistakes his whole career? Of course not, he needs to learn the game, just like everyone else. Doughty himself has made some costly mistakes this year.
Jack's problem is the hype that was built up by fan boys so now he's an easy target to take aim at. Neither Doughty nor Schenn have been built up to the level Johnson was up to before his first NHL game.
You must be new as well. Have you not seen hockey players get "smarter" as they mature? See Mike Modano. Or Rick Nash. A fresh-faced Rob Blake used to run around out of position all the time. They weren't known for being cerebral players entering the league as youngsters. A players hockey sense can improve with some teaching and maturity. What you can't teach is skill, size and determination.
Defense is different than the hockey sense he's talking about, anyway. Parise has that extra sense of where to be offensively and where his teammate's are. What does that have to do with fundamental defensive hockey, which is about playing one-on-one, percentages, positioning, and knowing what to do in certain situations.
The difference between Parise, Richards, and Johnson is that Johnson is a defenseman. Defense takes time. Doughty does have better offensive sense, but his defense is right there where Johnson's was at the end of the year, IMO. He's made some mistakes that have resulted in goals, just like Johnson did last year, but being younger and doing it right away he's obviously ahead in development when it comes to that. That doesn't mean Johnson won't learn when to pick his spots, where to be positionally, etc. those are all things that can be and have been taught to 95% of the league. Doughty is in that 5% that pick it up naturally right away. Johnson is learning. As he gets more comfortable, his offense will come around as well. The real question is, how much of it will translate.
Johnson's problem last season was that he was trying to do too much and I think there were too many people getting in his ear (and head) as to how to approach and play the game. Just let the kid play; which is what Terry Murray is doing with Doughty.
And even then, Johnson was still by far the best defenseman the Kings iced last season. Statistics wouldn't display that but if you watched the Kings last season you would take notice.
You cannot gain hockey sense. You see guys who get drafted high all the time, who come to the NHL and flop just because they aren't very intelligent when it comes to the X's and O's of hockey. I think what some people are confusing with hockey sense is just comfort. Guys get comfortable in a system and they know where to be and where their linemates are going to be.
I don't think JJ lacks hockey sense. I just think he's a rambunctious 21 year old who is looking to do entirely too much on a bad team. His mistakes stick out much more because there is no one there to pick up his slack. Just my take.
I feel that hockey sense is something that can be gained
Hockey sense is tricky, I think stuff like learning defensive positioning can be learned but knowing when and when not to jump in the play is instinct, watch Doughty, then watch Johnson and I think you will see the difference right there.
multiple canes fans have already said this in this very thread, and i for one agree that jj is a top prospect and still legit candidate to reach his potential. i still think that was the dumbest trade we ever did - and i love gleason. rutherford rushes top prospects, he wants quick return out of them and jj just sisnt think he was ready. i dont believe any of the "he wasnt ever gonna sign" crap, he just wanted to fulfill his promise to berenson and keep living his lifelong dream of playing for the wolverines. rutherford panicked cuz he felt he had to win the cup again, and had to fill some holes to keep the ball rolling. it backfired obviously, we'd be much better off with jj in the long run. gleason is very serviceable for us as we struggle to even make the playoffs, but that isnt enough in comparison for the long run.
I agree that it's silly to write off Johnson at this point and I do see him as a very good NHL D. The potential he has though was overhyped and I don't see him reaching those levels as they weren't realistic.
As far as his reasons to not sign with the Canes and playing at UM, the facts are contrary to your assertions and it was all chronicled on the Carolina board earlier this year. He never once told Canes' management about his two-year commitment to Michigan and only trotted out that story to deflect the criticism after he signed with the Kings. He was no doubt pressured by the Canes which was a misread on their part but he and his camp weren't fully forthcoming on his issues either. He was traded partly out of need and partly because the experience left management wondering out his mindset and desire to compete.
Second worst +- on the kings last year, very little offense shown. All he has shown for me is that he will play a mean physical game and when given a lot of minutes is a minus. Stats don`t tell the full story but when you are second worst +- on the team it does.
JM- how many games did you actually watch him play last year? LA was the worst team in the league - so throwing out stats downplaying a young guys value is just ludicrous IMO, and I ussually respect your opinion about this stuff. (EDIT: ALREADY ANWSERED)
JJ was a 21 YO kid in his rookie season, playing on a brutal team with crappy coaching. Not sure why you expect to be able to evaluate him based on last years lack of production. Almost every NHL defenseman takes time to transition from NCAA's/junior/overseas. That makes the guys that can immediately step up (like Doughty) all that more special.
Last edited by Beukeboom Fan: 11-17-2008 at 10:15 AM.
Good job proving me wrong, I used stats to atleast prove my case...you used "He didn't see him play" which is silly. I seen Johnson play many times, twice as a pro. He isn't all that smart of a player.
So you're forming your opinion on the potential of a guy based on TWO games at the NHL level? Are you serious? JM- that is the definition of hubris.
I think my proposal makes it pretty clear it matters not how he performed last year. The guy has tremendous potential that makes him an expensive asset to acquire. You dont throw a 2nd round pick and pick up a potential Franchise Defensemen.
My proposal was interesting though probably not realistic.
Kindl (1st round blue chip defensive prospect) (bit younger then JJ)
Hudler (nice young winger with upside)
1st round pick
Lija balances salary (gives kings a stop gap whos prob better then ur current bottom pair)
Tbh if detroits 1st wasnt going to be essentially a high 2nd pick I would say detroit turns it down. Kindl's potential isnt all that far behind JJs. Both are somewhat of enigmas but Kindl is showing some real progress this year. But alas top 2pick vs 19th pick.
Thats the kind of package you should expect if the kings are "giving up on him"
Imo the kings have little incentive to make that trade. But I am not sure what quality they would like in return. Do they really need more franchise forwards? Seems silly to trade a franchise defensmen for the another prime franchise defensemen. Do they need a franchise Goalie? Maybe but honestly they better off developing their young talent.
So after evaluating how they dont really need more top end talent we come to the conclusion that JJ nets a package of prospects and young contributors. (which LA has plenty of already)
So you're forming your opinion on the potential of a guy based on TWO games at the NHL level? Are you serious? JM- that is the definition of hubris.
If it makes any difference I watched them last night and was impressed with Doughty and O`Sullivan. I have little need usually to watch them play but from what I seen in the 2 games last year and plenty before pro is that his decision making is sub par, he runs around, and his positioning is poor. He has good size, good speed and a mean streak but I don't see any first line potential unless someone like Larry Robsinson gets a hold of him.
a healthy Jack Johnson is leading the Kings defense in ice time this season, Drew Doughty or no Drew Doughty, Kyle Quincey or no Kyle Quincey... period.
Give or take imo. Id be tempted to lower that 1st to a 2nd but then i might be accused of Homerism.
That much for JJ?...Wow, I'd keep Lilja, Hudler, Kindl and the 1st for him..
Kindl is going to be a beast once he comes...Lilja is just a filler for now...The 1st, hmm, a Detroit First, will likely turn out to be a 30+ goal scorer by his third season (they find Datsyuk, Zetty, Franzen, etc. in the late rounds, just imagine what they can find in the first), and Hudler is a solid player who may not put up the points he should, but will find his groove soon.
IMO, enough for Jack Johnson is, in this situation, Hudler and a 1st, heck thats an overpayment..
I agree that it's silly to write off Johnson at this point and I do see him as a very good NHL D. The potential he has though was overhyped and I don't see him reaching those levels as they weren't realistic.
As far as his reasons to not sign with the Canes and playing at UM, the facts are contrary to your assertions and it was all chronicled on the Carolina board earlier this year. He never once told Canes' management about his two-year commitment to Michigan and only trotted out that story to deflect the criticism after he signed with the Kings. He was no doubt pressured by the Canes which was a misread on their part but he and his camp weren't fully forthcoming on his issues either. He was traded partly out of need and partly because the experience left management wondering out his mindset and desire to compete.
i was talkin jj on the canes board since the day he was drafted, it was long chronicled before anything this year. i dont believe for a second jr didnt know about the commitment jj made, he just assumed any kid would toss aside such thoughts to play for a cup team, and was greatly pissed off when jj wouldnt even join them for the cup run, which made me admire he kid even more. he made a promise and stuck with it, and we as canes fans imo need to stop making excuses for why its ok we traded him for clearly lesser talent.
i dont believe for a second that the "facts" are contrary to my assertions. jj was publicly stating he wanted to stay for two years when he was drafted, problem was he also told the canes when they interviewed him that he would consider leaving early. only the canes would want an 18 y/o defenseman to skip college and jump into the nhl without even seeing him in training camp and earning a spot - which even on our team he likely wouldnt have deserved at that point.
If it makes any difference I watched them last night and was impressed with Doughty and O`Sullivan. I have little need usually to watch them play but from what I seen in the 2 games last year and plenty before pro is that his decision making is sub par, he runs around, and his positioning is poor. He has good size, good speed and a mean streak but I don't see any first line potential unless someone like Larry Robsinson gets a hold of him.
Which is why you needed more than TWO games last year to evaluate him. You can look at the numbers all you want, but defensively, his decision making improved by leaps and bounds. Which is why anyone who watch Johnson before the NHL should be really impressed with the progress he made last year. Now, all that needs to be done is to give him similar offensive freedom similar to Doughty, and look out.
IMO, enough for Jack Johnson is, in this situation, Hudler and a 1st.
Holland would take that in .5 seconds and laugh all the way to the bank.
I think you overate Kindl. Hes a very rough prospect. He has at least another 2 years of development in the AHL before we will know if he will be a solid Top 2 dman. Hes much overated on these boards. He his just starting to show the potential that this board has long expected of him.. He sucked last year. Luckily he plays on detroit and will be given plenty of years to develop in the AHL.
Lidstrom JJ <- can mix and match but Lidstrom might make a nice mentor
Kronwall Rafalski
Stuart Meech/Chelios
Ericsson
Would be insane.... However that makes the cap really tight. Not sure there would be enough minutes for all those Top shelf defensemen until Lidstrom retires.
But post Lidstrom Chelios era
Wings would have
Kronwall Stuart
JJ rafalski
Meech Ericsson
Works nicely. Loss of Hudler is trivial we have Leino & helm would need roster spots.
So in short if JJ is available and cheep Holland makes the move. But i am 1000% sure some team would out bid a Hudler+1st(high first) offer.
Bruins would love JJ. IMO if the Kings trade JJ he will go right to the Bruins for Lucic++
If it makes any difference I watched them last night and was impressed with Doughty and O`Sullivan. I have little need usually to watch them play but from what I seen in the 2 games last year and plenty before pro is that his decision making is sub par, he runs around, and his positioning is poor. He has good size, good speed and a mean streak but I don't see any first line potential unless someone like Larry Robsinson gets a hold of him.
Did it occur to you that having a real coach might make a hell of a difference? The Kings were a wreck last year, and no one could look good on that team.
I doubt you would see anybody trade for Jack Johnson without knowing how much he plans to make next season. It could really go either way. I would guess he takes a one year deal in the $2 million range to try to establish his long term value. That would probably be the smartest move. However, if he has an agent that wants to cash in on his name before his game arrives then we may see him attempt to draw the Kings into a 2 or 3 year pact for an elevated amount of money that could end up being a deal or a steal from Johnson. I don't think there will be a more interesting contract negotiation this offseason than to see what Johnson asks for and what he gets.
I'll tell you one thing though, and it's that they're running out of ice back there for defensemen. It wouldn't hurt the Kings to lose Johnson considering they have Hickey, Doughty, Teubert, etc. back there coming up. Most teams could build a decent future core from their scraps. Quite a unique situation they have there. I just can't figure out how they're not winning hockey games at a more consistant rate.
