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Zednik for O'neill- NAHHHHHHH

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Old
03-02-2004, 08:56 AM
  #1
Mooch
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Zednik for O'neill- NAHHHHHHH

Hey guys,


As we know zed has been playing awsome lately, especially after being reunitued with Koivu. The chemistry the have is awsome. Having said that, why would anybody wana trade zednik for oneill. It would mean that new chemistry would have be built between koivu and oneill. On top of that when zednik plays with desire, he is just great to watch. I say we keep zed, forget oneill. This guy has still has some potential IMO, and he is cheaper than oneill, who hasent done squat this season.

I never really liked oneill anyways!

Thoughts!

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03-02-2004, 09:00 AM
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Darz
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I like O'Neill but I don't see what a Zednik for O'Neill trade accomplishes. I mean we replace one top line sniper with another. Doesn't really solve a problem or fill a gap for us, imo.

Also don't see Carolina's motivation for making this trade. I assume they would want to recieve a good prospect or two for O'Neill.

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03-02-2004, 09:23 AM
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IMO O'neil is an upgrade on Zednik. He got a better size, a little more experience and he's not really older (1 month and 3 weeks older). He got already 3 seasons of 30 goals or more while Zednik got only 1. Another plus: O'Neil shoots right, not a big plus but the habs would benefit more from a right handed right wing than a left handed one. And O'Neil's production if a little better than Zednik's.

Zednik : gp: 497, g: 139, p: 117, pts: 256, pts per game : 0.515
O'Neil : gp: 670, g: 197, p: 218, pts: 415, pts per game : 0.619


Last edited by 8b: 03-02-2004 at 09:28 AM.
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03-02-2004, 09:34 AM
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Marksman
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O'Neill makes almost twice what Zednik makes - is he really twice as good player?

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03-02-2004, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marksman2
O'Neill makes almost twice what Zednik makes - is he really twice as good player?
Zednik: $1,850,000.00
O'Neil : $3,700,000.00

Definitively a good point. Why spend 2M$ to have a little more... The best thing that could happen is to get O'Neil without giving Zednik, a Zednik - Koivu - O'Neil line would look very nice!

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03-02-2004, 09:55 AM
  #6
Bob Bastards
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8b
IMO O'neil is an upgrade on Zednik. He got a better size, a little more experience and he's not really older (1 month and 3 weeks older). He got already 3 seasons of 30 goals or more while Zednik got only 1. Another plus: O'Neil shoots right, not a big plus but the habs would benefit more from a right handed right wing than a left handed one. And O'Neil's production if a little better than Zednik's.

Zednik : gp: 497, g: 139, p: 117, pts: 256, pts per game : 0.515
O'Neil : gp: 670, g: 197, p: 218, pts: 415, pts per game : 0.619
I am not sure if Zednik was playing on the top line in Washington, wich was the case for O'neil in Carolina, so is point per game average would have been higher if it was the case. Anybody is willing to make the math for Zed taking only is year with the Habs?
Anyhow, a Zed for O'neil trade is a lateral move at best and Zednik start to be scary once the playoff start...

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03-02-2004, 10:04 AM
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Guy Caballero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marksman2
O'Neill makes almost twice what Zednik makes - is he really twice as good player?
You don't have to be twice as good as someone else to make twice as much as them. You only have to be a little bit better. Salaries increase exponentially that way.

For example:

Modano: $9,000,000
Sundin: $9,000,000
Leclair: $9,000,000
Guerin: $8,866,445

Koivu: $4,250,000

Now, these are all damn good players, and most would agree they're better than Koivu (or at least were when they signed), but twice the player Saku is? I think not. If you don't think it's fair to put Saku there for whatever reason, replace him with Elias, Hejduk, or Roberts and the point stands.

Having said that, I wouldn't want to trade Zed for O'Neill, not because I think it's a bad deal, but because I think it's not necessary. Carolina is a non-playoff team. A prospect and a pick should be enough. While many might cringe at the notion of dealing something like Perezhogin and a first rounder for O'Neill, I think this is a fair and realistic deal that will help both teams.


Last edited by Guy Caballero: 03-02-2004 at 10:07 AM.
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03-02-2004, 10:08 AM
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You guys are all forgetting the chemistry factor however. As good as koivu is, he wont build chemistry with oneill like he has with zednik in less than a few weeks.

IMO, keep zednik, a get a rental player who is a top 6 for a pick or two, who can play alongside zed and koivu.

I think this is the one thing (chemistry) gainey talked about, when considering trading in a press confrence!

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03-02-2004, 10:11 AM
  #9
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I like O'Neil in MTL but not for Zednik, no way! Remember the playoff series Zed had 2 years ago 'till McLaren decided to take his head off?

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03-02-2004, 10:13 AM
  #10
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If we get O'neil I dont want to give up zednik. Just rerember how well he played in the playoffs 2 years ago before geting that concusion. When zednik plays like he has during the last 3 or 4 games hes a big part of our offense, therefore if we get red of him in order to acquire O'neil we still have a hole in our offense that has to be solve.

I like him quite a bit as a player but if he dident sufer that knee injure, a player that we might of been able to put in a package of 2 or 3 players could of been Jan Bulis along with some prospects.

Anyways Rutherford said that he wanted a player thats in his first season and that he was young. I dont think gainey would trade any of are first year player we have on are roster because the've all been part of our succes this year.

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03-02-2004, 10:48 AM
  #11
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not a fan of either team, but I'd suggest that O'Neill is a step up on Zednik. O'Neill is a proven 30+ goal, 65 point forward. Zednik is not. His career high of 50 points is safe for another year.
I find the comments of remember Zednik's run in the playoffs two years ago amusing. Using that logic, you should have never trade Savage since for limited periods of time he showed that he could be one of the hottest players in the league.

The question of chemistry going into the playoffs is a good one and the issue of salary should not be ignored, but if it comes down simply to a question of who is better, I'd suggest that it's clearly O'Neill.

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03-02-2004, 10:58 AM
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Its not the start of the season when you try to build your team for the long regular season. Its for the playoffs, you dont give aways your best assets. I didn't see any teams that have already moved give a 20 goal scorer for a 30 goal. Even the best player of the league right now, Lang needed just two young guys. If you guys think Gainey would give Zednick for O'neil going into the playoffs, its impossible. The biggest player that was traded from a playoffs team was Comrie, and it was for an all star goaltender on the only power house in the NHL with a backup as a starter.

The biggest player i can see go from our roster is Bulis, and i dont think it would be a great idea, because Juneau wont last the first round of the playoffs and we will need Bulis on the 3rd line. And next year its almost sure that we will see Bulis and Begin on the 3rd line.

I cant wait for the playoffs!!! whoohooo!!!

Yo Habs Yo!

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03-02-2004, 11:02 AM
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Guy Caballero
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Since we've been talking salaries in this thread, I just realized that this season, Ribeiro, Ryder, Dagenais, Bouillon, and Begin are making as much money, combined, as Yannic Perreault. That's freaking me out.

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03-02-2004, 12:07 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8b
IMO O'neil is an upgrade on Zednik. He got a better size, a little more experience and he's not really older (1 month and 3 weeks older). He got already 3 seasons of 30 goals or more while Zednik got only 1. Another plus: O'Neil shoots right, not a big plus but the habs would benefit more from a right handed right wing than a left handed one. And O'Neil's production if a little better than Zednik's.

Zednik : gp: 497, g: 139, p: 117, pts: 256, pts per game : 0.515
O'Neil : gp: 670, g: 197, p: 218, pts: 415, pts per game : 0.619

Can we just look at the last two and a half years? Zed is scoring at the same pace as O'neill at a lower salary and already established chemistry within the team.

The right handed shot is the only interesting thing but I still think that Ward ( a right handed shot) would COMPLEMENT Zed and Sax very well by being a constant presence in front of the net. Then with Ryder and Ribs making some noise (especially on the nights Dags disappears) we have two lines with a combination of grit, skill and shots (each line has a righty and two lefties)...I do not think Gainey needs to make a move of any kind.

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03-02-2004, 12:10 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooch
You guys are all forgetting the chemistry factor however.
And what if the chemistry is even better with Koivu and O'Neil?

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03-02-2004, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8b
And what if the chemistry is even better with Koivu and O'Neil?
I don't like O'Neill's attitude...he is a big whiner...PASS!!!

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03-02-2004, 12:22 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8b
And what if the chemistry is even better with Koivu and O'Neil?

Would not be this season, maybe next if there is one...

Why take on the extra salary?

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03-02-2004, 12:44 PM
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Mooch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8b
And what if the chemistry is even better with Koivu and O'Neil?
You didnt get my point.

My point was that it takes TIME to build chemistry. By getting oneill your not gona see instant chemistry between koivu and him, like we see with zednik and koivu. Gainey mentioned the same thing in his last press confrence.

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03-02-2004, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob In Kitchener
I don't like O'Neill's attitude...he is a big whiner...PASS!!!
I agree on the attitude part BOB. Any one who wines of not been called to play for something (in his case team canada), instead on working to improve is just not needed in our organization. We already got rid of some winers in donald, marius, etc. Its paid off big time this season!

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03-02-2004, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooch
You didnt get my point.

My point was that it takes TIME to build chemistry.
I must desagree. Depends of players, depends of teams. One good example is Mark Recchi, when he got in Flyers from Pittsburg he fitted really good in the line up. When he got in Montreal, he was creating chemistry (remember him playing with Koivu??). And then he went back to Flyers and again he raised his production.

Another good example: Damphousse. Each time he changed team (Toronto, Edmonton, Montreal & San Jose) he raised his numbers, always bringing good chemistry to the team.

Chemistry may comes like magic or may comes with time.. Koivu dont play often with Selanne but in olympics it was magic. Chemistry isnt a factor IMO, too unpredictable...

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03-02-2004, 01:53 PM
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I'd prefer to stick to Zednik...

O'Neil is a good player, but Zednik is a piece that we need in order to survive... He potted # 20 last night, and I believe now that he's finally got that one under his belt, he'll get on a little pace... O'neill has been streaky at best for 2 years now.

Zedder has speed, and tree trunk legs... He is definately not any shrinking violet (he's not overtly physical, but he does his job)

I just can't see trading a key piece that brought us to where we are now, for another piece where we are potentially risking whatever chemistry players have with Zed.

Previous performance aside, Zednik also shows up every night... I find he'll struggle, but he's performing every night. O'Neill is a head case at times, he hates to excercise (Zednik doesn't)... Just think... Carolina would rather give up a 3 time 30 goal man/1 time 40 goal man, than a 4 goal defenceman, or an aging Leader (Hill & Francis)... That being said, I would take O'Neill, but not for a key prospect... nor a first rounder (with the CBA coming up...)

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03-02-2004, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8b
I must desagree. Depends of players, depends of teams. One good example is Mark Recchi, when he got in Flyers from Pittsburg he fitted really good in the line up. When he got in Montreal, he was creating chemistry (remember him playing with Koivu??). And then he went back to Flyers and again he raised his production.

Another good example: Damphousse. Each time he changed team (Toronto, Edmonton, Montreal & San Jose) he raised his numbers, always bringing good chemistry to the team.

Chemistry may comes like magic or may comes with time.. Koivu dont play often with Selanne but in olympics it was magic. Chemistry isnt a factor IMO, too unpredictable...

Ok fair enough on the chemistry thing, but then think of it this way now. If we were to keep zednik and not get oneill, that would leave us with exactly 1.850 million dollar to spend. With that money, we could go out and get a forward for draft picks, lets say for example lindros.

Now which line is better?

Koivu, Oneill, Bulis

or

Koivu, Zednik, Lindros.

To me the second line would be far more effective in the playoffs than the first.

Bottom line, oneill wont give is "THAT" much more than zednik. He is not as physical as he should be anyways. With oneill we might get maybe 5-10 more goals. Not a big difference when spread out over a span of 82 games, especially when you consider that guys like ryder and ribs should be able to pot more goals next season to make up for the difference.


Last edited by Mooch: 03-02-2004 at 03:56 PM.
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03-02-2004, 04:46 PM
  #23
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Zednik For O'Neil

I would take O'Neil but I wouldn't trade one for the other. I think Zednik is overated!! The guy had 4 great games in the playoffs and than took a cheap shot. But since then, have you seen Zednik make the inside move with speed since?? Not often. I been really watching Zednik the last four or five games especially after a post about Zednik coughing up the puck as much as Dagenais or something to that affect. The PP shoots the puck in Zednik coughs it up and out the puck comes. The guys has been terrible along the boards and he needs to be more hungrey for the puck. He doesn't win the one on one battles and Zednik has been far from great lately!! If you take your bais eyes off the prize for a second you will see what Im talking about. I expected Zednik to step up and be a leader this year and he hasn't done that and I think he can play bettter. Maybe the playoffs is what he needs!!!!

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03-02-2004, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garnet
I would take O'Neil but I wouldn't trade one for the other. I think Zednik is overated!! The guy had 4 great games in the playoffs and than took a cheap shot. But since then, have you seen Zednik make the inside move with speed since?? Not often. I been really watching Zednik the last four or five games especially after a post about Zednik coughing up the puck as much as Dagenais or something to that affect. The PP shoots the puck in Zednik coughs it up and out the puck comes. The guys has been terrible along the boards and he needs to be more hungrey for the puck. He doesn't win the one on one battles and Zednik has been far from great lately!! If you take your bais eyes off the prize for a second you will see what Im talking about. I expected Zednik to step up and be a leader this year and he hasn't done that and I think he can play bettter. Maybe the playoffs is what he needs!!!!
I disagree, when zed has played with koivu he has been hungry for the puck and played with desire and intensisty. Just look at the last few games he has played with saku as an example. For some reason he only performs well with the captain. Thats why last season he was excellent.

So in other words, if zed had played with saku all season, he would have poted between 25-30 goals or more like last season.

Even this season, he is on pace for around 20-25. That many goals now a days are very hard to get, especially from a guy who gets paid less than 2 mill.

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03-02-2004, 05:20 PM
  #25
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Zednik

I agree Zednik played a better game in the fact that he went to the net and got rewarded with a couple scoring chances. But you can't actually say Zednik game has been descent in the last 15 games?? Can you?? He has been Montreal worst top six forward for almost a month!! Say what you want the stats are there. The guy can not create chances on his own and like Dagenais as he needs to be set up. I guess this is what separates good players from superstars in the league. O'Neil can do it all, more round and phyiscal and yes a better leader with 40 goal potential. Zednik doesn't have any of this. But Zednik is a streaky player and one goal is probably what he needed. Zednik in my mind in a solid second line winger who can put up about 25 goals a season. I good comparsion is Mark Parrish stats wise.

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