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Martin Ordered To Make Playoffs, Sign Jaybo AND Cut $3 Mil In Payroll

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Old
11-16-2008, 04:15 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by ratmanfu View Post
We need to direct this energy towards Cohen & Friends, tbqh.

GR mentioning there's some truth to Garrioch's report has me worried now. Every time Cohen interferes, my heart skips a beat.
Agreed and this thread has gone way off course. I'd to see how this would be if Cohen would keep his stinkin nose out of things.

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11-16-2008, 04:18 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trombone Olesz View Post
your theory is so flawed it's laughable.

you're spewing the same garbage traditionalists up north consistently throw as a need for relocation but none of it holds any merit. florida's lack of success has nothing to do with the "culture" in this market - it has to do with the "culture" of the organization - something that would persist regardless of whether or not they play in sunrise or ontario.

carolina had no problem winning in a similar market. tampa had no problem. nashville has had consistent success as well. anaheim is no different, especially pre-stanley cup where the pond was more than half-empty any game.

it has nothing to do with the market. nothing.. you are using it as a crutch for the failures of management while ignorant northerners use it as fuel for relocation talk, regardless of how irrelevant it really is. notice how anaheim suddenly improved when brian burke/randy carlyle were brought in? notice how the same happened in tampa with torts (and feaster...although he was a moron)....same in carolina with laviolette?

deboer is trying to do the same here.....but it doesn't happen instantly.

you're so far off here it's not even funny so if i were you, i'd quit now before you dig yourself into a hole you can't get out of. i'll never understand how people can be so misguided and delusional but to each his own.
I wouldn't say Nashville is doing well. Yeah they are consistently in the playoffs. But what good does that do if nobody is there to support the team. I don't like the fact that apparently because Cohen's wallet is empty, he's imposing on how this team should be ran. That can't speak well of the situation there. The only time the BAC is really full is if half or even more than half of it is filled with the opposing team's fans.. and even then those hockey fans don't show up on other nights. It sucks. So lets say Florida does start making the playoffs consistently? Who's to say the same meager attendance numbers wouldn't still exist? All that I'am saying is, I would welcome a change. I would like to see this team be actually supported instead of the camera panning around to a 3 quarters empty BAC. That's actually embarrassing. I'm just saying, if they did move to Canada, and say it was Ballsillie, I don't believe their would be a financial strain like there is here, and I believe he would bring in people who know how to run an organization unlike Yormark. And I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be lousy attendance numbers.
I also do believe their is fan and media pressure, perhaps not on the organization per se, but the players. Which can either make a player thrive or dismantle a player.

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11-16-2008, 04:23 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratmanfu View Post
We need to direct this energy towards Cohen & Friends, tbqh.

GR mentioning there's some truth to Garrioch's report has me worried now. Every time Cohen interferes, my heart skips a beat.
i think you misread what GR meant...

he's saying there's some truth in Garrioch's report sarcastically. of course cohen wants to make the playoffs, re-sign your supposed franchise defensman and clear salary cap at the same time....

i think alot of people here are missing the fact that it's bruce garrioch....

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11-16-2008, 04:25 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Agreed and this thread has gone way off course. I'd to see how this would be if Cohen would keep his stinkin nose out of things.

It really says something about the quality of his ownership when longtime fans are willing to have the team sold off at all costs, even if it means moving the Cats out of Florida.

IMO, it's not so much a case of giving in to the anti-South sentiment as it is wanting what's best for the players this organization has dicked around since Cohen took the helm.

It's just brutal when you read about "demands" like Cohen's when it seems we're finally headed in a positive direction with stability in the front office and promising leadership behind the bench.

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11-16-2008, 04:25 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Booootthh View Post
I wouldn't say Nashville is doing well. Yeah they are consistently in the playoffs. But what good does that do if nobody is there to support the team. I don't like the fact that apparently because Cohen's wallet is empty, he's imposing on how this team should be ran. That can't speak well of the situation there. The only time the BAC is really full is if half or even more than half of it is filled with the opposing team's fans.. and even then those hockey fans don't show up on other nights. It sucks. So lets say Florida does start making the playoffs consistently? Who's to say the same meager attendance numbers wouldn't still exist? All that I'am saying is, I would welcome a change. I would like to see this team be actually supported instead of the camera panning around to a 3 quarters empty BAC. That's actually embarrassing. I'm just saying, if they did move to Canada, and say it was Ballsillie, I don't believe their would be a financial strain like there is here, and I believe he would bring in people who know how to run an organization unlike Yormark. And I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be lousy attendance numbers.
I also do believe their is fan and media pressure, perhaps not on the organization per se, but the players. Which can either make a player thrive or dismantle a player.
Nashville's problem hasn't been fan support, it's been big company support. You're honestly speaking of what you don't know. You don't know if moving will help anything, nor do you know how winning will change things here. Dude, it's absolutely mindboggling that you're remotely Ok with the team moving. I'd welcome, gladly, new ownership, but only if like Nashville they keep the team here.

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11-16-2008, 04:26 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trombone Olesz View Post
i think you misread what GR meant...

he's saying there's some truth in Garrioch's report sarcastically. of course cohen wants to make the playoffs, re-sign your supposed franchise defensman and clear salary cap at the same time....

i think alot of people here are missing the fact that it's bruce garrioch....
Thanks for clarifying...I totally missed that as sarcasm. You just made me feel 100X better, tbqh.

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11-16-2008, 04:27 PM
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It's painful to read all this stuff. I hate it when there's talk about franchises moving. Hopefully it works out in south Florida.

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11-16-2008, 04:27 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trombone Olesz View Post
i think you misread what GR meant...

he's saying there's some truth in Garrioch's report sarcastically. of course cohen wants to make the playoffs, re-sign your supposed franchise defensman and clear salary cap at the same time....

i think alot of people here are missing the fact that it's bruce garrioch....
Both points are true, Richards certainly has sarcasm from time to time. I missed that, thanks for pointing it out...

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11-16-2008, 04:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ratmanfu View Post
It really says something about the quality of his ownership when longtime fans are willing to have the team sold off at all costs, even if it means moving the Cats out of Florida.

IMO, it's not so much a case of giving in to the anti-South sentiment as it is wanting what's best for the players this organization has dicked around since Cohen took the helm.

It's just brutal when you read about "demands" like Cohen's when it seems we're finally headed in a positive direction with stability in the front office and promising leadership behind the bench.
I just don't understand how moving the team is possibly good for anyone or anything, it's sure as hell not good for the fans. Take VanMurph for example, yes he's been marketed like crazy, but if I can toot my friend's horn for a minute, it's well deserved. This guy just spent last week following the team from LA, to Phoenix, to Anaheim. He and a lot of others support this team immensely, why should they be left out? Why should they lose their team? They support this team tremendously, and likely more than some in the north support their's. Let's put a winning team together and keep Cohen's nose out of things, then see what happens.

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11-16-2008, 04:38 PM
  #60
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WTF is with this talk of people actually wanting the team to leave Florida???? How can a fan say this!! To me, this is flat out betrayal of the franchise and fans. You actually want the team to change it's name and move? I'd rather have this franchise miss the playoffs for the next decade then to see it move! If you want to be a fan of a good team just switch allegiances to a good team, but don't actually push for the team to move. IF they move, they are no longer the Florida Panthers, and there will NEVER be another Florida Panthers.

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11-16-2008, 04:40 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laus723 View Post
Nashville's problem hasn't been fan support, it's been big company support. You're honestly speaking of what you don't know. You don't know if moving will help anything, nor do you know how winning will change things here. Dude, it's absolutely mindboggling that you're remotely Ok with the team moving. I'd welcome, gladly, new ownership, but only if like Nashville they keep the team here.
Nashville was ranked 27 out of 30 teams last season in terms of attendance, and that certainly helps revenue and I'm sure very well contributed to why Nashville firesold their team. Anyway I'm not going to argue it anymore. just two different opinions.

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11-16-2008, 04:40 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Booootthh View Post
I wouldn't say Nashville is doing well. Yeah they are consistently in the playoffs. But what good does that do if nobody is there to support the team.
doesn't matter. your original point was that florida is struggling because of the nonchalant attitude of the market they play in. nashville plays in a similar market (probably worse) and has no problem sustaining success.

you're wrong. plain and simple.


Quote:
I don't like the fact that apparently because Cohen's wallet is empty, he's imposing on how this team should be ran. That can't speak well of the situation there.
first of all - cohen's wallet is not empty. according to the sun-sen he made $9.1 million last year from sunrise sports and entertainment.

the panthers as a hockey operation lose about $3-5 million a year - but alan cohen is not losing money.


Quote:
The only time the BAC is really full is if half or even more than half of it is filled with the opposing team's fans.. and even then those hockey fans don't show up on other nights. It sucks. So lets say Florida does start making the playoffs consistently? Who's to say the same meager attendance numbers wouldn't still exist?
the only two years florida has had real success, they sold out every single game and you couldn't get tickets from scalpers for anything cheaper than $100.

you're so wrong it's criminal. just stop.


Quote:
All that I'am saying is, I would welcome a change. I would like to see this team be actually supported instead of the camera panning around to a 3 quarters empty BAC. That's actually embarrassing.
first of all, the BAC is never 3/4ths empty. want to know how i know? i'm there every game. the wild game was the most empty it's been all year and the announced crowd of around 12,000 was pretty accurate. 12,000 out of 19,250 is not 3/4ths empty...sorry to break it to you.

if it bothers you that much - why don't you show up to a game or two instead of watching on TV? pot...kettle....

Quote:
I'm just saying, if they did move to Canada, and say it was Ballsillie, I don't believe their would be a financial strain like there is here, and I believe he would bring in people who know how to run an organization unlike Yormark.
yormark isn't well liked by alot of fans but the truth is, he is probably one of the most successful business-minds in sports. i wrote a report about him (and his brother - president of the NJ Nets) and it's amazing what they do on the business side of the organization. yormark got ADT to shell out $3.5 million dollars to name the club seats.....

point is - yormark is one of the biggest reasons why this team will stay in sunrise. you might not like all the advertisements arounf the building or the fact that our "president" doesn't know diddly squat about hockey....but if he keeps the organization from bleeding to death. keep him on board.

nashville's biggest problem is lack of corporate support. the panthers have so much corporate support they cut back on some of it last season.

Quote:
And I'm pretty sure there wouldn't be lousy attendance numbers.
I also do believe their is fan and media pressure, perhaps not on the organization per se, but the players. Which can either make a player thrive or dismantle a player.


you're so mistaken i just don't know what to tell you. toronto plays in the "hockey mecca" and the last 2-3 years have been one of the most enigmatic clubs in the sport. is it just me or did some team walk in there last year and beat them 8-0? the effort was so bad their own fans started cheering the opposing teams goals!

oh wait...that was us!!!

the rangers in the mid-late 90's were the same. should they be moved to hamilton too?

this is silly....do us a favor and just stop.

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11-16-2008, 05:28 PM
  #63
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Hey guys, guess what--you're ALL right.

Move any team to Canada and people show up, lots of them. Toronto's had a joke of a team for years (I know, I cheered for them, watched all the games) and sold-out as the games might be, the product on the ice wasn't good.

At the same time, we're fans of the Florida Panthers, so I can completely see the viewpoint of the others too. No-one wants their team to pack up and go.

I remember rats raining down a certain time ago. All these Panthers have to do to fill this building is start winning. They're already quite entertaining. They will get the DeBoer system, and changes will still be made.

So, let's kiss and make up.

But no kisses or hugs for the owner. I'm new to the team and far behind all of you, but what I'm seeing here (see thread title) doesn't make any sense at all.

On the other hand--look at the way Toronto approched their team-wide change this year. Sundin openly insulted. McCabe snubbed and insulted. Tucker bought out and tossed away. Welwood gone (and don't you think he was grinning ear to ear when he scored against the Leafs last night).

Now look at what the Panthers did. They traded Jokinnen (spelling?) who was unhappy..and picked up two really entertaining and good players. We have a really good defense. We have good goaltending. All we have to do is fiddle a bit with the forwards. This team--in spite of the points at the moment--is doing a better job of changing things around than the Leafs, I think. Florida is close. The Red Wings coach himself said so, didn't he, just the other night?

Heck, you guys pulled off a major heist with McCabe alone!

Toronto is playing over its head. Florida is just beginning to "get it." But this set of three "must do's" for Martin is unbelievably stupid.

Fire the owner, keep the GM, and keep the Panthers in Florida.

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11-16-2008, 05:31 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by MisterBouw View Post
Well, he doesn't exactly confirm it, but he does agree that expecting Martin to meet all three of those demands is an impossible request.
i really wish we had press covering the team that would challenge cohen and not let him off with easy answers (and not retort in their blogs, where it'll get no response). i think the coverage of the team now from GR is probably as good as it's ever been but it's got to get better and tougher.

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11-16-2008, 05:33 PM
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IMO, these are completely reasonable demands. It would be better if the owner didn't apply pressure through the press or make specific hockey-related requests, but it's time for some accountability.

Martin has been GM for over 2 years. His job was to retain the young core and get the team to the playoffs. Nothing has changed. If he can't sign our most valuable core player or make the playoffs in 3 years, he should be fired. That is more than fair.

As for the salary cut...an economic downturn and a drop in ticket sales means you've got to cut costs. That's life.

I don't love the fact that we have a meddling owner, but in this case, what's the downside to an ultimatum? It's about time someone in this franchise demanded some accountability.

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11-16-2008, 05:50 PM
  #66
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IMO, these are completely reasonable demands. It would be better if the owner didn't apply pressure through the press or make specific hockey-related requests, but it's time for some accountability.

Martin has been GM for over 2 years. His job was to retain the young core and get the team to the playoffs. Nothing has changed. If he can't sign our most valuable core player or make the playoffs in 3 years, he should be fired. That is more than fair.

As for the salary cut...an economic downturn and a drop in ticket sales means you've got to cut costs. That's life.

I don't love the fact that we have a meddling owner, but in this case, what's the downside to an ultimatum? It's about time someone in this franchise demanded some accountability.

exactly. I'm glad someone said it.

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11-16-2008, 05:50 PM
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DeBoer is making people sit, that's accountability. Ask Boynton. I'm sure he wasn't happy.

Anderson got two starts in front of Vokoun. That's accountability.

You may not have had it here before, but I think we're beginning to see it now.

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11-16-2008, 06:07 PM
  #68
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I'll never complain about accountability at all and agree it's necessary, hoever, everytime Cohen sticks his nose into things, things get messed up. See: Keenan, Luongo, and Olli, to name a few. But, c'mon, demand playoffs and signing Bouw while simultaneously (sp) cutting salary? Doesn't jive, and it seems GR confirmed that.

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11-16-2008, 06:23 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Panthers/Leafs fan View Post
DeBoer is making people sit, that's accountability. Ask Boynton. I'm sure he wasn't happy.

Anderson got two starts in front of Vokoun. That's accountability.

You may not have had it here before, but I think we're beginning to see it now.
I do too and I think making demands like he did (If he did) at this point is the worst possible time to do it. We may not be the top of the East and our PP definately needs some work, but we beat the Ducks, TB,and then kept up with Detroit the ENTIRE game, so I think that speaks volumes for where this team was and where it is headed.
I honestly doubt JBO is going to stay with the Panthers, although I am very impressed with his play as of late, finally hitting guys and working hard, I think he will be traded come Jan/Feb. ( I do hope I am wrong and he signs a good contract)

Cutting 3 mil, well what's the deadline for that? Does he have a time limit? The only players I can see going anywhere to cut payroll is Dvo,Zednik,Pelt,and Murphy. Not sure if it equals 3mil,but if he cuts anyone else, he is limiting the chances of the playoffs.

As for selling out games and attendance at the BAC, just look at last season,with the 7 game win streak.. Probably anywhere between 15k-sold out every one of those nights, so I think if the Panthers make the playoffs this season (and I want the cup, but if they make the playoffs) and continue for seasons to come, the fans will show up and spend the money, they just need a reason ya know. I mean who wants to spend money going to watch your hockey team, if they lose every game? Can just plop down on the couch and watch it for free.

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11-16-2008, 06:34 PM
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I know JFJ wasn't there for fourty years. Instead of pointing out the most underachieving franchise in Canada, why not point out Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary. How many people care about this team, when they are in Florida right now? Not many honestly. The dwindling fan base supports that. You've pointed it out yourself in an earlier post, that no one goes because they lose. What does that tell you about the culture in south Florida? Compare that to Toronto. The economy only hurts this franchise even more.
Calgary Saddledome used to be referred to as the "library" where old ladies would come to knit and businessmen would turn each other on by talking about their stock portfolio's totally ignoring the action on-ice. Things can change...but in a non-hockey market like Florida... it might just be too much for this team to stay down there long-term.


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11-16-2008, 06:39 PM
  #71
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Sounds like something Jeremy Jacobs would say...and look what happened the last 40 years to the Bruins!

I really think that Bouwmeester has played out his days, and judging from many of your comments, has not shown any passion or desire to be there. Add in the article from his father and now you have a negative aspect in the dressingroom where you are trying to rebuild and hold players accountable.

It sounds like DeBoers is trying to make people accountable in Florida and Martin has done an amazing job building one of the best defense corps in the east...even without Bouwmeester.

To me it just seems like Florida doesn't have that scoring punch on the first or second line that would bring the fans some hope...I think the Bouwmeester move could bring that and shed the $3,000,000 needed.

A new face up front and a new leader to look to in the dressingroom might also bring the wins which would make them competative in the stretch to win that 8th spot.

When you look at this team, I see a team with more skill than the Islanders, Leafs, and more youth and optimism than Ottawa, New Jersey, and Tampa Bay...to me it looks like a new leader in the dressingroom is needed and for that to happen it is time to part ways with the old.

By trading Bouwmeester and not just letting him walk, Florida will instantly shed the money he demands and become a more passionate and competative team.

Cheers

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11-16-2008, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Panthers_Fan View Post
WTF is with this talk of people actually wanting the team to leave Florida???? How can a fan say this!! To me, this is flat out betrayal of the franchise and fans. You actually want the team to change it's name and move? I'd rather have this franchise miss the playoffs for the next decade then to see it move! If you want to be a fan of a good team just switch allegiances to a good team, but don't actually push for the team to move. IF they move, they are no longer the Florida Panthers, and there will NEVER be another Florida Panthers.
They will still be the same franchise. And people questioning others' fandom just because they'd be OK with the team moving is ridiculous. Not every Panthers fan lives in South Florida or likes the team just because they are in Florida.

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11-16-2008, 09:09 PM
  #73
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They will still be the same franchise. And people questioning others' fandom just because they'd be OK with the team moving is ridiculous. Not every Panthers fan lives in South Florida or likes the team just because they are in Florida.
It's not so much about whether you're a fan or not, I wasn't thinking (if I did in fact do that), but I question anyone being OK with their favorite team moving. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

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11-16-2008, 09:12 PM
  #74
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You guys can be a good team with better forwards. You shouldn't be counting on the Dvorak's etc for scoring. If you guys kept the shot totals away from being around 40 per game, you'd have better success.

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11-16-2008, 09:54 PM
  #75
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The targets that Cohen has defined makes it obvious that he wants Martin out. Excuse my pessimism, but if we can't get the results we want with our current budget, how can we expect to do so with a reduced budget? Finally, how can we demand the GM to sign a player, when signing is at the player's discretion?

It thrills me to see ambition reaching a complacency ridden franchise. But this is the wrong kind of ambition. The ambition we need must begin in the locker room; players need to feel "the fire in the belly", so to speak, and develop an insatiable appetite to win. In other words: we need bottom-up ambition. The ambition that Cohen seeks to impose (top-down) will translate merely to a negative sentiment (in the form of pressure, poor decision making, and a negative attitude) that will trickle down through management, coaching, and ultimately the players. Consequently, from the perspective of the players, the beautiful and exciting sport that they grew up loving will become a tedious and repetitive job. And that is not the environment that breeds a successful team.

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