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Old
11-16-2008, 03:15 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by devilzrule27 View Post
the bum has 17 goals and ONE assist in the KHL right now. haha.
apparently Mika Noronen is on his team. I was wondering what happened to that guy. Ok so maybe i wasn't.
Well, I was a bit harsh on him. He has been performing well for the past two years in Swedish elite league and now in Russia. But I stand my ground upon his performance in Finland

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11-16-2008, 03:58 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by paulytits View Post
patrik elias is not going anywhere.
Maybe next season, Elias can play with either Havlat or Hossa--on the Devils!!!

Larry Brooks is a Rangers fan. The only time he sees the Devils play is when they play the Rangers.

Gionta won't be re-signed. If we trade him at the deadline, it will be for a prospect or a pick.

We need to dump a salary here or there, but not Elias's salary.

Does anyone have a link to the Devils players, and other NHL players who have No Trade Clauses?

I really like Colin White, but we have to dump his salary. Wish we could get a #2 pick for him, but he has a NTC and I doubt he will waive it. Real good character guy, too.

I would like to sign Dubinsky (and if he doesn't come to the Devils, at least we can cap out the Rangers!!!), and a defenseman along the lines of J-Bo, but he would probably be too expensive.

Holik's salary comes off the cap after this season. No reason to bring him back unless he'll play for the NHL minimum. Gio's salary comes off the cap. We have to sign John Madden, hopefully for no more than two or three years until we can develop another shutdown line.

And we have to hope that Corrente or Eckford can make the Devils next season and be a top 4 defenseman. Salmela seems to be the real deal and I hope he stays. Wish we could find another one like him!!!!

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11-16-2008, 05:01 PM
  #78
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2008-2009: 17 games, 7 goals, 6 assists, 13 points, +1, 66 shots
2007-2008: 17 games, 3 goals, 6 assists, 9 points, -6, 56 shots
2006-2007: 17 games, 3 goals, 9 assists, 12 points, -9, 56 shots

I hardly see this as the season to start talking about an Elias trade. Through 17 games he has better stats across the board than he did the previous 2 seasons.

He's on pace for about 35 goals and 65 points without Rolston, whom he looked excellent with. Really, with the exception of a couple games this year I haven't been dissapointed in his play. In fact, when you look back he could have had a couple more goals here and there like against Detroit, that I'd bet 9 times out of 10 he'd score on.

He hasn't really had a chance to develop chemistry with anyone either. He's played with Madden, Pando, Zubrus, Gio, Rolston, Parise, Zajac, and Langs at random points this year.

What get's lost for some people with Elias is how much of a big game player he is. Look at the number of game-winners and overtime goals he has. Look at his numbers every year in the playoffs. Another thing that get's lost is his defensive play. For how talented he is offensively, their aren't many players better defensively, with that offensive talent.

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11-16-2008, 05:05 PM
  #79
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Elias is not on pace for 35 this season, just fyi.

Parise's on pace for 96 points though

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11-16-2008, 05:22 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
Elias is not on pace for 35 this season, just fyi.

Parise's on pace for 96 points though
Well, he is on pace for 34, which is why I said "about". If he get's 34 at the end of the season, we'll just tack on his no-goal in detroit

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11-16-2008, 05:29 PM
  #81
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id love to see a 30+ goal season from patty.

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11-16-2008, 05:29 PM
  #82
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1. Elias should not be traded
2. Elias would not be easy to move because of the length of his contract
3. Brooks is a moron

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11-16-2008, 05:37 PM
  #83
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And just when I thought Brooks couldn't get any more stupid

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11-16-2008, 07:13 PM
  #84
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Brooks is pointing out is that Elias' production has gone down and he is getting older, so maybe it might be in Lou's best interest to trade him while he is still valuable in the eyes of other GM's.

However, I think he is still productive, especially in the playoffs, and unless a young No. 1 goalie is part of the package, I think trading Elias should be the last thing on Lou's mind

Brooks was bored, obviously

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11-16-2008, 07:23 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Goose Huckabee View Post
Muttley, who in your opinion ears their salary and isn't trade-worthy? Zach and maybe Marty, or should we expect more consistency from him at $5.2?
Those are the only 2 right now who I would consider untradeable.

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11-16-2008, 07:31 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
Elias is not on pace for 35 this season, just fyi.

Parise's on pace for 96 points though
Quote:
Originally Posted by devs4L View Post
Well, he is on pace for 34, which is why I said "about". If he get's 34 at the end of the season, we'll just tack on his no-goal in detroit
Let's keep our fingers crossed, hope he doesn't disappear like he usually does and wish for the best. We have been down this road before when Elias teases us with these games where he looks like the player he once was.

Despite what Brooks and those of us who all think Elias underperforms say, we are stuck with him and his huge contract (and its NTC) for a long time and really, really, really need him to score 30+ goals for the betterment of the team, the fans and for Patrik Elias himself.

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11-16-2008, 07:37 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Muttley View Post
Let's keep our fingers crossed, hope he doesn't disappear like he usually does and wish for the best. We have been down this road before when Elias teases us with these games where he looks like the player he once was.

Despite what Brooks and those of us who all think Elias underperforms say, we are stuck with him and his huge contract (and its NTC) for a long time and really, really, really need him to score 30+ goals for the betterment of the team, the fans and for Patrik Elias himself.
LOL. I love how you say we are "stuck" with our 2nd best offensive player like Patty is some detriment to the team.

His salary may be a million high or so, but I find it hilarious that Patty is bringing down the team.

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11-16-2008, 07:41 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Clarkson Falls Down View Post
LOL. I love how you say we are "stuck" with our 2nd best offensive player like Patty is some detriment to the team.

His salary may be a million high or so, but I find it hilarious that Patty is bringing down the team.
Yea, its getting old. I thought all this riff raff ceased after his strong second half last season, and even after doing pretty well to start this year, we are going to have this conversation again?? Come on. He and Parise are the best forwards on the team. Trading him would be an absolute joke. He isn't causing this team an ounce of trouble, and right now, he is getting on a hot streak.

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Old
11-16-2008, 07:44 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Niedermayer27 View Post
Does anyone have a link to the Devils players, and other NHL players who have No Trade Clauses?
http://www.nhlscap.com/no_trade.htm

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11-16-2008, 07:49 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Muttley View Post
Those are the only 2 right now who I would consider untradeable.
I feel like you'd like the Devils a lot more if they were run by a brain-trust of Al Davis, Dan Snyder, and maybe Hank Steinbrenner.

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Old
11-16-2008, 07:52 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Goose Huckabee View Post
I feel like you'd like the Devils a lot more if they were run by a brain-trust of Al Davis, Dan Snyder, and maybe Hank Steinbrenner.
Um, O.K.

Edit: And actually, I'm quite content with Jeffrey Vanderbeek and I'm still clinging to the hope that Lou will improve the defense at the trade deadline and during th FA signing period next summer.

So basically, there goes your idiotic assessment of the wanting of Al Davis, Dan Snyder & Hank Steinbrenner

In the meantime, I want more out of Patrik Elias (and apparently so do others) even if being the 2nd leading scorer on the offensively challenged Devils is the equivalent of being the 2nd tallest midget in a circus.


Last edited by Muttley*: 11-16-2008 at 08:05 PM.
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Old
11-16-2008, 08:15 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttley View Post
Come on, are we really going to use this stat to try to defend Patrik Elias?
Quote:
This is exactly along the subjective lines of the plus/minus argument: If a player you are defending has a decent + rating, be sure to bring it up as a positive. But if this same player has a poor negaitive rating, totally marginalize it and use the "oh but the plus/minus stat is not always indicative of what happens on the ice" excuse:
It's shots on net. It's not subjective at all. It's a countable stat. Like goals, assists, penalty minutes, etc. You either have taken a shot on net or you didn't. It's not subjective at all and you really can't marginalize it. If a player isn't scoring, but they are getting shots on net, then it's clear that the player is trying to score. This is part of why Brooks' argument falls flat: he assumes no points = no contribution; but that's not true at all. That Elias is among the top players in the league in putting pucks on net is indictive that he's getting opportunities to score and he's taking advantage of them. Scoring forwards who have become useless don't do that.

Quote:
Patrik Elias was given this huge contract to play the way did in the early 2000's and especially that 4 month period from January through February 2006.

This is udisputable
Actually, Muttley, I am disputing this. You fail to recognize his proclivity to scoring clutch goals, his ability on the ice to try and go for the big play when others would just dump the puck into the corners, and that even when he is having a poor season under his standards, he still leads the team in scoring.

Quote:
Based on what was just said above, either you accept the fact that Elias has been absolutely underperforming....or you deny this fact and blame everyting/everybody else, from line changes, coaching, or whatever is the flavor of the week excuse.
It's not either/or, Muttley. That's why I keep bringing up the shots on net number. It's conclusive proof that Elias is at the least attempting what he needs to do on offense, and does so regularly. However, hockey is a team sport and as result how you're coached (e.g. see how Sutter didn't put Gionta in the slot at all last season despite his past success there), who your linemates are, and what the chemistry is there are all serious factors to how a player performs. To say otherwise shows a misunderstanding of the sport of hockey.

Then again, I'm not surprised - you think a player that manages to get just under an average of 4 shots on net per game is invisible. Maybe a ghost scored those two goals last night?

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11-16-2008, 08:17 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by DevilFisch View Post
It's shots on net. It's not subjective at all. It's a countable stat. Like goals, assists, penalty minutes, etc. You either have taken a shot on net or you didn't. It's not subjective at all and you really can't marginalize it. If a player isn't scoring, but they are getting shots on net, then it's clear that the player is trying to score. This is part of why Brooks' argument falls flat: he assumes no points = no contribution; but that's not true at all. That Elias is among the top players in the league in putting pucks on net is indictive that he's getting opportunities to score and he's taking advantage of them. Scoring forwards who have become useless don't do that.



Actually, Muttley, I am disputing this. You fail to recognize his proclivity to scoring clutch goals, his ability on the ice to try and go for the big play when others would just dump the puck into the corners, and that even when he is having a poor season under his standards, he still leads the team in scoring.



It's not either/or, Muttley. That's why I keep bringing up the shots on net number. It's conclusive proof that Elias is at the least attempting what he needs to do on offense, and does so regularly. However, hockey is a team sport and as result how you're coached (e.g. see how Sutter didn't put Gionta in the slot at all last season despite his past success there), who your linemates are, and what the chemistry is there are all serious factors to how a player performs. To say otherwise shows a misunderstanding of the sport of hockey.

Then again, I'm not surprised - you think a player that manages to get just under an average of 4 shots on net per game is invisible. Maybe a ghost scored those two goals last night?
We're often are at odds but...

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Old
11-16-2008, 08:31 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by fortheloveof666 View Post
We're often are at odds but...
Yes, he nailed it.

Elias' numbers are up this season, but more importantly, so is his INTENSITY. He is smashing sticks on the ice, finishing checks, playing a nasty two way game, and firing pucks on net. I have never seen him this motivated.

I think a "hot streak" has already begun, frankly, and Elias is typically a "second half" player anyway -- so my money is on 35+ goals, 70+ points. Book it.

Brooks Must Go... To Hell.

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11-16-2008, 08:35 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by devs4L View Post
2008-2009: 17 games, 7 goals, 6 assists, 13 points, +1, 66 shots
2007-2008: 17 games, 3 goals, 6 assists, 9 points, -6, 56 shots
2006-2007: 17 games, 3 goals, 9 assists, 12 points, -9, 56 shots

I hardly see this as the season to start talking about an Elias trade. Through 17 games he has better stats across the board than he did the previous 2 seasons.

He's on pace for about 35 goals and 65 points without Rolston, whom he looked excellent with. Really, with the exception of a couple games this year I haven't been dissapointed in his play. In fact, when you look back he could have had a couple more goals here and there like against Detroit, that I'd bet 9 times out of 10 he'd score on.

He hasn't really had a chance to develop chemistry with anyone either. He's played with Madden, Pando, Zubrus, Gio, Rolston, Parise, Zajac, and Langs at random points this year.

What get's lost for some people with Elias is how much of a big game player he is. Look at the number of game-winners and overtime goals he has. Look at his numbers every year in the playoffs. Another thing that get's lost is his defensive play. For how talented he is offensively, their aren't many players better defensively, with that offensive talent.
Good post. I agree for the most part, and there is no doubt in my mind that Elias is the most talented player on this team aside from Brodeur. He's clearly the best skater on the team and he surprises his teammates with passes that I couldn't even concieve. I just wish that Sutter would try Parise-Zajac-Elias just once this season because last season when Elias played with Parise they did really well.

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11-16-2008, 08:41 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by DevilFisch View Post
It's shots on net. It's not subjective at all. It's a countable stat. Like goals, assists, penalty minutes, etc. You either have taken a shot on net or you didn't. It's not subjective at all and you really can't marginalize it. If a player isn't scoring, but they are getting shots on net, then it's clear that the player is trying to score. This is part of why Brooks' argument falls flat: he assumes no points = no contribution; but that's not true at all. That Elias is among the top players in the league in putting pucks on net is indictive that he's getting opportunities to score and he's taking advantage of them. Scoring forwards who have become useless don't do that.



Actually, Muttley, I am disputing this. You fail to recognize his proclivity to scoring clutch goals, his ability on the ice to try and go for the big play when others would just dump the puck into the corners, and that even when he is having a poor season under his standards, he still leads the team in scoring.



It's not either/or, Muttley. That's why I keep bringing up the shots on net number. It's conclusive proof that Elias is at the least attempting what he needs to do on offense, and does so regularly. However, hockey is a team sport and as result how you're coached (e.g. see how Sutter didn't put Gionta in the slot at all last season despite his past success there), who your linemates are, and what the chemistry is there are all serious factors to how a player performs. To say otherwise shows a misunderstanding of the sport of hockey.

Then again, I'm not surprised - you think a player that manages to get just under an average of 4 shots on net per game is invisible. Maybe a ghost scored those two goals last night?
I'll tell you what. You can keep the amount of shots on goal taken stat. We will never agree on how important that is vs. other criteria that are used to judge a players performance.

And yes, we know his ability to score GWG and how he performs in the shootout etc, but looking at the team as a whole, the last 2+ seasons have been a collective failure on both sides of the ice.

Some of us want Patrik Elias to being the 30+ goal scorer we know he can be in addition to scoring clutch goal etc. If he continues to play the way he has the last several games, then he will have the long awaited comeback season that he and this team needs. But he has to continue this and perhaps do more, especially due to our rash of injuries.

I am disappointed in several Devils forwards, but since this thread is about Patrik Elias, why is this so hard to understand?

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11-16-2008, 08:43 PM
  #97
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Im Larry Brooks, I have a lisp and have diabetes.
Another one. Nice

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11-16-2008, 08:44 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Goose Huckabee View Post
I feel like you'd like the Devils a lot more if they were run by a brain-trust of Al Davis, Dan Snyder, and maybe Hank Steinbrenner.
And Omar Little in a Devils Jersey...

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11-16-2008, 08:49 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by DevilFisch View Post
It's shots on net. It's not subjective at all. It's a countable stat. Like goals, assists, penalty minutes, etc. You either have taken a shot on net or you didn't. It's not subjective at all and you really can't marginalize it. If a player isn't scoring, but they are getting shots on net, then it's clear that the player is trying to score. This is part of why Brooks' argument falls flat: he assumes no points = no contribution; but that's not true at all. That Elias is among the top players in the league in putting pucks on net is indictive that he's getting opportunities to score and he's taking advantage of them. Scoring forwards who have become useless don't do that.



Actually, Muttley, I am disputing this. You fail to recognize his proclivity to scoring clutch goals, his ability on the ice to try and go for the big play when others would just dump the puck into the corners, and that even when he is having a poor season under his standards, he still leads the team in scoring.



It's not either/or, Muttley. That's why I keep bringing up the shots on net number. It's conclusive proof that Elias is at the least attempting what he needs to do on offense, and does so regularly. However, hockey is a team sport and as result how you're coached (e.g. see how Sutter didn't put Gionta in the slot at all last season despite his past success there), who your linemates are, and what the chemistry is there are all serious factors to how a player performs. To say otherwise shows a misunderstanding of the sport of hockey.

Then again, I'm not surprised - you think a player that manages to get just under an average of 4 shots on net per game is invisible. Maybe a ghost scored those two goals last night?
Golden.

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11-16-2008, 09:26 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muttley View Post
Some of us want Patrik Elias to being the 30+ goal scorer we know he can be in addition to scoring clutch goal etc. If he continues to play the way he has the last several games, then he will have the long awaited comeback season that he and this team needs. But he has to continue this and perhaps do more, especially due to our rash of injuries.

I am disappointed in several Devils forwards, but since this thread is about Patrik Elias, why is this so hard to understand?
We all want Elias to be a big time scorer in the same way; but this thread isn't about Patrik Elias - it's about Larry Brooks' argument that Patrik Elias should be traded You've stated that you think Brooks' point is correct: that Elias should be traded. The point of my - and many others - criticisms of this article is that Brooks' reasoning for trading Elias is flawed. You've stated earlier that you've agreed with Brooks' assertion and so far you've turned this into a discussion about Elias: which is relevant but not really why the article was posted in the first place. Let's go back to your inital response that I didn't quote just now:

Quote:
3) Acknowledge that yes, he played better with Scott Gomez and Jason Arnott and will most likely never return to that form with this current roster of Devils forwards and perhaps could use a change of scenery. But since Gomez & Arnott are most likely never comming back, perhaps it is finally the time (for the benefit of everyone) to grant him his wish of playing with what appears to be a good match of playing with his friend Havlat.
First, yes, Elias had some great years with Gomez and Arnott. He's also had those sub-par seasons with them too. Look at 2001-2002, which ended with Arnott in a different uniform; and 2006-2007 for examples of each. Second, where is Elias wishing that he was with Havlat? Brooks only suggests it because he's friends with him. Third, and most importantly, how would trading Elias benefit the team - which is what Brooks is ultimately arguing as being taking a step back to go two steps forward?

-For starters, the trade would have to bring a skilled winger back lest you want to have opposing defenses be able to focus solely on Zach Parise's unit every night as he'd be left as the one true skilled forward on the team. Unless you have a lot of faith in Nicklas Bergfors or some other prospect who hasn't shown they can step in just yet. That alone makes it more than a step back, it's actually a massive leap.

-Let's also consider what else could happen, especially based on the wishes of some here on HF: If this trade brings back a top 4 defensemen - even if the Devils score Phanuef/Bouwemeester in some crazy way by dealing Elias; they aren't going to be replacing the 60-70 points that Elias in a "sub-par" brings. They won't replace how he can drive into the zone and draw a call. They won't (or at least not easily) replace his shots on net, his ability to make a difficult pass down low on offense, or even his skill to drive into traffic and if not get a shot on net, draw a call. A top d-man would benefit in other ways, but it'd be at the cost of losing what Elias does. And if the trade brings back a goalie, well, you're throwing those points away really. Especially when Marty gets back.

-Lastly, if Elias is truly the under performing and invisible player that Brooks makes him out to be, how can the Devils trade him and get fair value back? If the idea is to trade Elias for some young and upcoming player, it's going to take more than just Elias to pry him away from a team. Lou would have to trade from weakness as he's offering a player away, should he do what Brooks is arguing here. Brooks mentions that Lou needs to go one step back and two steps forward. How? Would prospects and picks be a step forward? Maybe in a few years, but at the cost of trading away one of the few scoring forwards the Devils have, it'd be a huge step back and put an amazing pressure on the scouting and development staff to fill in his skates. All while we watch an offense that sorely needs more skill.

These are issues that Brooks' doesn't even consider in his article. I know he has limits to his article, but there's no sign that he even thinks about it in some detail. He just states what Elias isn't scoring as he once was (true), falsely concludes that he's been a non-factor and a non-contributor to the team, and then jumps off from that false conclusion into thinking that Lou should trade him away for the benefit of the team as a whole. It's terrible reasoning and it's why we're so particular in criticizing it.

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