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11-16-2008, 09:34 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by DevilFisch View Post
We all want Elias to be a big time scorer in the same way; but this thread isn't about Patrik Elias - it's about Larry Brooks' argument that Patrik Elias should be traded You've stated that you think Brooks' point is correct: that Elias should be traded. The point of my - and many others - criticisms of this article is that Brooks' reasoning for trading Elias is flawed. You've stated earlier that you've agreed with Brooks' assertion and so far you've turned this into a discussion about Elias: which is relevant but not really why the article was posted in the first place. Let's go back to your inital response that I didn't quote just now:



First, yes, Elias had some great years with Gomez and Arnott. He's also had those sub-par seasons with them too. Look at 2001-2002, which ended with Arnott in a different uniform; and 2006-2007 for examples of each. Second, where is Elias wishing that he was with Havlat? Brooks only suggests it because he's friends with him. Third, and most importantly, how would trading Elias benefit the team - which is what Brooks is ultimately arguing as being taking a step back to go two steps forward?

-For starters, the trade would have to bring a skilled winger back lest you want to have opposing defenses be able to focus solely on Zach Parise's unit every night as he'd be left as the one true skilled forward on the team. Unless you have a lot of faith in Nicklas Bergfors or some other prospect who hasn't shown they can step in just yet. That alone makes it more than a step back, it's actually a massive leap.

-Let's also consider what else could happen, especially based on the wishes of some here on HF: If this trade brings back a top 4 defensemen - even if the Devils score Phanuef/Bouwemeester in some crazy way by dealing Elias; they aren't going to be replacing the 60-70 points that Elias in a "sub-par" brings. They won't replace how he can drive into the zone and draw a call. They won't (or at least not easily) replace his shots on net, his ability to make a difficult pass down low on offense, or even his skill to drive into traffic and if not get a shot on net, draw a call. A top d-man would benefit in other ways, but it'd be at the cost of losing what Elias does. And if the trade brings back a goalie, well, you're throwing those points away really. Especially when Marty gets back.

-Lastly, if Elias is truly the under performing and invisible player that Brooks makes him out to be, how can the Devils trade him and get fair value back? If the idea is to trade Elias for some young and upcoming player, it's going to take more than just Elias to pry him away from a team. Lou would have to trade from weakness as he's offering a player away, should he do what Brooks is arguing here. Brooks mentions that Lou needs to go one step back and two steps forward. How? Would prospects and picks be a step forward? Maybe in a few years, but at the cost of trading away one of the few scoring forwards the Devils have, it'd be a huge step back and put an amazing pressure on the scouting and development staff to fill in his skates. All while we watch an offense that sorely needs more skill.

These are issues that Brooks' doesn't even consider in his article. I know he has limits to his article, but there's no sign that he even thinks about it in some detail. He just states what Elias isn't scoring as he once was (true), falsely concludes that he's been a non-factor and a non-contributor to the team, and then jumps off from that false conclusion into thinking that Lou should trade him away for the benefit of the team as a whole. It's terrible reasoning and it's why we're so particular in criticizing it.
OK. fine. I think at this point in time, the amicable thing to do will be to wait until April to make another assessment of Patrik Elias.

If there even is an April that is. First things first.

That's fair for everyobody.

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11-16-2008, 10:01 PM
  #102
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Thanks, Muttley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW, Chicago is not trading Cam Barker. Or Duncan Keith. And I don't want Huet or Khabibulin. Anyway, one of them will end up with Ottawa IMO.

I want a young goalie to take over when Marty retires. I don't know if Corey Crawford is that goalie and Chicago won't trade him to us.

We need Elias but we don't need Arnott and I don't want Gomez back.

To be honest, I want to see what happens when Rolston returns. If they don't click, we can look for some playmaking centers at the deadline.

If we can stay in the playoff hunt and be healthy heading into the playoffs, this is our roster:

Elias--Rolston--Gio or Vrana
Parise--Zajac--Langenbrunner
Pando--Madden--Zubrus
Rupp/Vasyunov???--Holik--Clarkson
Bergfors

Martin--Salvador
Oduya--Salmela
Mottau--White/Greene
Brookbank

Brodeur
Weekes
Clemmensen



That is not too shabby!

Oh, and by the time Elias is ready to call it quits, or we trade him in three years, Mattias Tedenby should be ready and Vasyunov should be a regular. And if Matt Corrente progresses, he will replace Sheldon Brookbank next season. And Jeff Frazee played well on Saturday night in Lowell.

So we just have to be patient and everything will be fine!

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11-16-2008, 10:21 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Niedermayer27 View Post
Thanks, Muttley!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not sure if that site is 100% accuarate, but it seems right. Also it has not been updated since July as for example, they still show Brian McCabe as being a Leaf.

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11-16-2008, 10:24 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Muttley View Post
Not sure if that site is 100% accuarate, but it seems right. Also it has not been updated since July as for example, they still show Brian McCabe as being a Leaf.
This is what I always use.. Updated all the time

http://nhlnumbers.com/

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11-16-2008, 10:26 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Jiri Bicek View Post
This is what I always use.. Updated all the time

http://nhlnumbers.com/
Yeah but where does it show if the contract is a NTC, NMC, etc?

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11-16-2008, 10:26 PM
  #106
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Larry Brooks articles aren't worth whiping my rear with.
Not worth the paper they're written on and the ink they're printed with. He can shove it up, well you get the idea

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11-16-2008, 10:30 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Muttley View Post
Yeah but where does it show if the contract is a NTC, NMC, etc?
Ah, thought you were just talking about basic contracts

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11-17-2008, 12:41 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Muttley View Post
I am disappointed in several Devils forwards, but since this thread is about Patrik Elias, why is this so hard to understand?
Muttley, you have had a hate boner for Elias for how many seasons now? So retarded articles like this one must be like pornography for you.

Patrik Elias is the most skilled forward this franchise has ever known, whose past performance alone would likely merit his number's inclusion in the rafters with Stevens, Dano and, ultimately, Marty. And, most importantly, he is playing great hockey RIGHT NOW.

On a team devoid of scoring threats, removing perhaps our best overall weapon, and for a temporary stop-gap goalie rental no less (as the Brooks article seems to suggest, amid the mindless drooling) is beyond mind-numbingly stupid and downright disrespectful to Patty.

So, you choosing this as a moment to re-ignite the Elias bashing is simply peeing in our collective punchbowl, as fans, without a shred of merit to the argument.

Elias has been a good soldier, doing whatever has been asked of him within the ever-shifting whims of Brent Sutter, however blunt or misbegotten the notions (playing center, left wing, off-wing, scorer, checker, PP, PK, shootout, any and everything...)

And, importantly, he has been a loyal Devil, which should mean a lot to us fans (and does.)

Do we all have high expectations for him. Yes. Has he met them, for the most part, during his dozen years in Black and Red. Hell, yes.

And I, for one, do not need to watch until April to know, without a shadow of doubt, how important he is to this team.

The Devils may have 99 problems, but Patrik Elias ain't one.

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11-17-2008, 01:36 AM
  #109
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I've always wanted to see what trying times would do to the post 1990 fanbase.

I guess I'm getting my answers.

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11-17-2008, 03:26 AM
  #110
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Nah, I dont like extra grease on my allready greasy chips.

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11-17-2008, 08:07 AM
  #111
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I find the article interesting. Say Elias for Khabibulin and Barker. And if we're out of the playoffs we could move Khabibulin for picks and hope that Barker is a late bloomer.

Plus, Elias is off the books and gives the Devils more cap space to go after Jay-bo and maybe a forward in the off season.

I would also love to go into the June draft with 2 first rounders and a couple of 2nds.

We have Gio, Madden, Holik and Elias or Bulin to move at the deadline and we can always pull a St. Louis and bring back Madden.

I really believe it's time for Lou to turn the page and look forward. But, knowing Lou, he'll wait for the team to get healthy and hope we make the playoffs. Maybe the hockey Gods will give us a break and we'll be out of a playoff spot by the trade deadline.

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11-17-2008, 08:12 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Brooklyndevil View Post
I find the article interesting. Say Elias for Khabibulin and Barker. And if we're out of the playoffs we could move Khabibulin for picks and hope that Barker is a late bloomer.

Plus, Elias is off the books and gives the Devils more cap space to go after Jay-bo and maybe a forward in the off season.

I would also love to go into the June draft with 2 first rounders and a couple of 2nds.

We have Gio, Madden, Holik and Elias or Bulin to move at the deadline and we can always pull a St. Louis and bring back Madden.

I really believe it's time for Lou to turn the page and look forward. But, knowing Lou, he'll wait for the team to get healthy and hope we make the playoffs. Maybe the hockey Gods will give us a break and we'll be out of a playoff spot by the trade deadline.
Barker's blooming now. We better make a move for him while we still have a shot. 9 points in 8 games.

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11-17-2008, 10:18 AM
  #113
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Barker's blooming now. We better make a move for him while we still have a shot. 9 points in 8 games.
Well, that's not good for at least the Devils.

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11-17-2008, 12:28 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Brooklyndevil View Post
I find the article interesting. Say Elias for Khabibulin and Barker. And if we're out of the playoffs we could move Khabibulin for picks and hope that Barker is a late bloomer.

Plus, Elias is off the books and gives the Devils more cap space to go after Jay-bo and maybe a forward in the off season.

I would also love to go into the June draft with 2 first rounders and a couple of 2nds.

We have Gio, Madden, Holik and Elias or Bulin to move at the deadline and we can always pull a St. Louis and bring back Madden.

I really believe it's time for Lou to turn the page and look forward. But, knowing Lou, he'll wait for the team to get healthy and hope we make the playoffs. Maybe the hockey Gods will give us a break and we'll be out of a playoff spot by the trade deadline.
That's exactly my way of thinking, although you stated it much more tactfully and most likely won't have to deal with the obnoxious vitriol about having a "boner" or silly allusions of pornogrpraphy as referenced above.

Again, it's always refreshing to think past next year and away from the present and show some form of objectivity no matter how much we can't stand Brooks.

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11-17-2008, 12:57 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Muttley View Post
That's exactly my way of thinking, although you stated it much more tactfully and most likely won't have to deal with the obnoxious vitriol about having a "boner" or silly allusions of pornogrpraphy as referenced above.

Again, it's always refreshing to think past next year and away from the present and show some form of objectivity no matter how much we can't stand Brooks.
I just don't see this team going far even with a healthy line-up. The defense is at best average, who knows about Marty and Gionta, Langenbrunner and Elias are less the players they were say 3 seasons ago. And more importantly, we have at best a C+ group of prospects and no young goaltending other than Frazee. If Lou doesn't stop drinking his own koolaide, he will leave this organization in a situation were it will take several years of rebuilding. We got 0 return for Nieds, Gomez and Rafalski. Don't do the same with Gio, Madden and Holik and maybe a few others. But, that's my opinion. I know many fans rather make the playoffs and hope the team gets hot at the right time, but I don't see it.

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11-17-2008, 01:19 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Brooklyndevil View Post
I just don't see this team going far even with a healthy line-up. The defense is at best average, who knows about Marty and Gionta, Langenbrunner and Elias are less the players they were say 3 seasons ago. And more importantly, we have at best a C+ group of prospects and no young goaltending other than Frazee. If Lou doesn't stop drinking his own koolaide, he will leave this organization in a situation were it will take several years of rebuilding. We got 0 return for Nieds, Gomez and Rafalski. Don't do the same with Gio, Madden and Holik and maybe a few others. But, that's my opinion. I know many fans rather make the playoffs and hope the team gets hot at the right time, but I don't see it.
I can't disagree with anything you have said. Brian Rolston & Bobby Holik were band-aid solutions to the problems at hand and I would like to believe are only part of a slow and discrete rebuilding process. I (and a few others here) are giving Lou from the trade deadline in March through the FA signing period in July to continue to remake the team.

But as you have stated, Lou will most likely hold his ground and once again stay the course for the rest of the season. Either this team makes the playoffs and quickly exits in the first round or the worst case scenario of missing the playoffs and missing out on making any trades and getting draft picks.

But then again, we have never seen a Devils team without Martin Brodeur for such an extended period of time, let alone this many injuries, so if we stay out of playoff contention or barely in 8th place, anything can happen.

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11-17-2008, 03:53 PM
  #117
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I just don't see this team going far even with a healthy line-up. The defense is at best average, who knows about Marty and Gionta, Langenbrunner and Elias are less the players they were say 3 seasons ago. And more importantly, we have at best a C+ group of prospects and no young goaltending other than Frazee. If Lou doesn't stop drinking his own koolaide, he will leave this organization in a situation were it will take several years of rebuilding. We got 0 return for Nieds, Gomez and Rafalski. Don't do the same with Gio, Madden and Holik and maybe a few others. But, that's my opinion. I know many fans rather make the playoffs and hope the team gets hot at the right time, but I don't see it.
I for one fully agree to everything that is mentionned above. Don't get me wrong, I want this team to win but over the last few years we've lost alot of assets... AMAZING assets for nothing and Lou signed some guys to LTC's that aren't justifying his "smarts". He's suppose to be one of the Elite... if not the Elite but his recent signings make me kinda so-so on the hole debate.

That's why i actually think that Marty's injury is a blessing in disguise. Lou has about 3 to 4 months to evaluate his REAL personnel. Now if this guy doesn't see that our defensive unit WITHOUT MARTY looks like a good AHL caliber blueline, then the man is crazy !!! He'll also see a kid that has the will and fire to play the game and that he needs to give him the support and help the kids deserves to do what the does best... SCORE GOALS. How do we score goals... by bringing the puck up the ice... and if you have a good OFFENSIVE DEFENSEMEN that can actually start a rush then you'll utilise Parise to his fulless. But I guess we'll just settle for Colin White (a..k.a. mister icing) and other guys that work the puck just like him. Other then Odyua and Martin our "offensive minded" d-men aren't that scary.

If Elias does end up leaving for a top "ready to step in now" bluechip prospect plus a goaltender (that will end up being a good barganing chip at the deadline... ala Huet) that can help us untill Marty comes back, then i'm all for it. Same thing with pending UFA's. Not all of them but those who aren't part of the "picture" in the next two years or so. We can't continue losing key players and end up getting sweet ****all in return.

WAKE THE DUCK UP !!!

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11-18-2008, 09:01 AM
  #118
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Larry Brooks main reason to trade Elias is his decline over the last years. And yes it is fact that Elias dropped from 69 points in 2006-2007 to 55 points last season. 14 points less with just one game less.

What Brooks fails to mention is the reason why Elias scored less points. Like everybody on this board knows, we lost Gomass and Rafalski during the offseason without replacing them with equal talent. Less talent to play with could be a good reason to score less points, but 14 seems too much.

The other reason for Elias bad season last year is that he was forced to play center. And he needed time to adjust to his new postion until mid-december. Just take a look at his number from last year. Over the first 32 games Elias scored only 17 points (0.53 ppg). In the remaining 42 games Elias scored 38 points (0.9 ppg), which is slightly better than his career numbers (0.84 ppg). Not so much a decline.

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11-18-2008, 09:20 AM
  #119
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Larry Brooks main reason to trade Elias is his decline over the last years. And yes it is fact that Elias dropped from 69 points in 2006-2007 to 55 points last season. 14 points less with just one game less.

What Brooks fails to mention is the reason why Elias scored less points. Like everybody on this board knows, we lost Gomass and Rafalski during the offseason without replacing them with equal talent. Less talent to play with could be a good reason to score less points, but 14 seems too much.

The other reason for Elias bad season last year is that he was forced to play center. And he needed time to adjust to his new postion until mid-december. Just take a look at his number from last year. Over the first 32 games Elias scored only 17 points (0.53 ppg). In the remaining 42 games Elias scored 38 points (0.9 ppg), which is slightly better than his career numbers (0.84 ppg). Not so much a decline.
Good points JW. I will say that I don't know if it was an adjustment as much as him finally playing with a quality forward. he didn't start the year at center, it was when he switched to centering Parise that he picked it up.

While I agree that even healthy I think this team is still a solid offensive D man and maybe another center away from really having a shot to win anything - if you trade Elias than you may as well trade Marty too because if we are going to start rebuilding and trade away our second best forward - that to me means you are giving up trying to win while Marty is still here so why not trade him too. I don't think the Devils need that drastic an overhaul just yet and I personally would rather try to go for it for the next couple of years while Marty is still here than give up like that and trading Elias is just that, giving up.

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11-18-2008, 09:43 AM
  #120
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Good points JW. I will say that I don't know if it was an adjustment as much as him finally playing with a quality forward. he didn't start the year at center, it was when he switched to centering Parise that he picked it up.

While I agree that even healthy I think this team is still a solid offensive D man and maybe another center away from really having a shot to win anything - if you trade Elias than you may as well trade Marty too because if we are going to start rebuilding and trade away our second best forward - that to me means you are giving up trying to win while Marty is still here so why not trade him too. I don't think the Devils need that drastic an overhaul just yet and I personally would rather try to go for it for the next couple of years while Marty is still here than give up like that and trading Elias is just that, giving up.
No one is suggesting to trade Elias for picks and prospects. IF Elias does get traded, it will be for a solid puck moving d-men... nothing less.

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11-18-2008, 09:48 AM
  #121
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No one is suggesting to trade Elias for picks and prospects. IF Elias does get traded, it will be for a solid puck moving d-men... nothing less.
I found that highly unlikely as any team willing to trade for Elias and his salary at this stage of his career is most likely looking to win now, so moving a puck moving dmen isn't going to make sense for them.

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11-18-2008, 09:53 AM
  #122
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I found that highly unlikely as any team willing to trade for Elias and his salary at this stage of his career is most likely looking to win now, so moving a puck moving dmen isn't going to make sense for them.
I'm not saying that a 1 vs 1 trade is in the works but a team like the Panthers who has Bouwmeester on the block since this summer or another team like the Hawks or the Preds, who are stacked with offensive d-men can be a legit option for Lou I.M.O. We have a better chance getting what we want if we dangle Elias as trade bait rather then Gionta... no ?!?!?

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11-18-2008, 09:55 AM
  #123
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I'm curious as to why we trade Elias?

Also, you guys keep mentioning Nashville, Chicago, Florida etc etc... These teams are building a young core for their futures? Why do they trade those guys when they dont have other pieces to go with the Elias's or the Gionta's to make a cup run?

Use your damn brains please...

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11-18-2008, 09:59 AM
  #124
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I've always wanted to see what trying times would do to the post 1990 fanbase.

I guess I'm getting my answers.
ha yea, goodcall. Who would you rather have, Billington or Clemmenson? Or I guess to be before 1990, Burke or Weekes (I'd take Burke!)

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11-18-2008, 10:03 AM
  #125
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I'm curious as to why we trade Elias?

Also, you guys keep mentioning Nashville, Chicago, Florida etc etc... These teams are building a young core for their futures? Why do they trade those guys when they dont have other pieces to go with the Elias's or the Gionta's to make a cup run?

Use your damn brains please...
Yeah... the Hawks really have a crappy team and Nashville aren't a top 8 team out West with Elias. I can understand your point regarding the Panthers but the 2 other teams aren't as bad as you think.

Use your damn brain... PLEASE

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