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the real trade lacroix needs to make!

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Old
03-01-2004, 09:32 PM
  #1
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the real trade lacroix needs to make!

after another poor showing at home adding to a total of 4 goals in 6 home games, lacroix needs to make a blockbuster trade,


but forget about kolzig or gonchar, they cant solve what is ailing this team, no the trade that lacroix must make is
tony granato for joel quenville.

its the avs only chance at righting this ship, constant line juggling, misjudging talent-selanne is not a defense first player, horrible 4th line combinations(mcallister-cummins-worrell) and arguing with the fellow coaches on camera are ruining the avs cup chances.
adding gonchar is only going to band-aid this team, lacroix needs to pull a lou and replace his coach late in the season with the best available option, for the sake of all avs fans out there!

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03-01-2004, 09:37 PM
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In the words of our TV announcer:

thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU!

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03-01-2004, 09:41 PM
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Paul Maurice > Joel Quennville.

Unfortunately, Maurice implements a defensive system that wouldn't work with this hockey club.

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03-01-2004, 09:53 PM
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i want you call p.l. and tell him this
be greatly appreciated

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03-01-2004, 09:55 PM
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i think this thread belongs to the game night board...

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03-01-2004, 10:03 PM
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ho ho uh, I don't see what the problem is , Maybe Granato is doing all the juggling because Forsberg is still out. Although only getting 16 shots on net is still pretty pathetic when you've got guys like Sakic, Kariya, Selanne, etc. out there.

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03-01-2004, 10:18 PM
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03-01-2004, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stastny
<---------
It wasn't even that long ago that the Avs were on a roll and at the top of the conference and now that they are mired in a slump it's time to fire the coach? Come on! This team has a overrated goalie, they're missing their #1 D-man, their best player is out with an injury the new D-man they dealt for is hurt too and yet this is all the coaches fault? Right! Well, you do need to blame someone don't you? Lacroix is a big boy and he will trade away what is left of the youth on this team for one last run at the cup. He always does. Now, if it fails you might want to point that crooked finger his way and send them both packing. The Avs aren't going to fade away overnight. Every team goes through a slump. Look at Dallas. The Avs will be back in time to conquer the playoffs and go head to head with their old foe the Stars in the Conference finals.

Stanley cup prediction:
Ottawa in 7 games over the Avalanche


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03-02-2004, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Angered Hab
It wasn't even that long ago that the Avs were on a roll and at the top of the conference and now that they are mired in a slump it's time to fire the coach? Come on! This team has a overrated goalie, they're missing their #1 D-man, their best player is out with an injury the new D-man they dealt for is hurt too and yet this is all the coaches fault? Right! Well, you do need to blame someone don't you? Lacroix is a big boy and he will trade away what is left of the youth on this team for one last run at the cup. He always does. Now, if it fails you might want to point that crooked finger his way and send them both packing. The Avs aren't going to fade away overnight. Every team goes through a slump. Look at Dallas. The Avs will be back in time to conquer the playoffs and go head to head with their old foe the Stars in the Conference finals.

Stanley cup prediction:
Ottawa in 7 games over the Avalanche

Aebischer has been good during this stretch. Blake and Foote are both in the lineup...so that cannot be used as an excuse. The Avs are not scoring. And Granato has no clue about how to get the team to start scoring. He has NO coaching experience to fall back on. Hiring him was a mistake. Keeping him after he failed in the playoffs last year was a mistake. Firing him and hiring a real coach is a logical act.

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03-02-2004, 01:00 AM
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This thread is funny. I mean get rid of Tony Granato? Why? Because his team is playing with no heart, which he's been known for his whole career. It's the players responsibility out there, to show up every night. They're in a slump like "angered hab" said, and every teams goes through it. If they go into panic mode (like they are) and make a stupid deal like aquiring Kolzig, it will definitely send that team into a tailspin! Aebischer is solid, and i'm so over that BS every year of having a playoff goalie. Where they ***** are they supposed to start if they're never given that chance. They need to stand pat, and suck it up! I'm a hardcore Kings' fan and we've dealt with more ***** the last two years than any team combined. I'd love to have a roster like the Avs have right now. And as far as the line juggling, check around the league because AM does that same ***** over here in LA. As do many other coaches. Is it TG's fault that Kariya and his bed buddy, ain't translating what everybody thought they would on the ice. They were big fish in a little pond, and now they're playing with all this talent and don't have much to show for. They asked to go there! Playoffs are not even here yet, so they just need to grab their sacks and start playing the way they can!

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03-02-2004, 01:30 AM
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Many will point the finger at Selanne, and possibly even at Kariya for the scoring woes. Those who know me will expect me to defend Teemu to no end, against all good sense. And I might. Still, there is more to this than simply defending my favorite player. The fact is that Teemu hasn't performed. From the games I've seen recently, he hasn't been the defensive liability he's been in the past. He simply hasn't scored. A great deal of this falls on Teemu, obviously. Its great that he's playing the good teammate, the good team player, and taking the demotions and the line shake-ups with class. However, that only goes so far, and he's definitely paid to score. He hasn't, and he HAS to get it together before the playoffs.

That said, I think Granato has handled his situation specificially, and just the forwards in general, in a very clumsy way. I'll be the first to admit that I haven't watched as many Avs games as Avs fans have (if I could, I'd be watching Ducks and Yotes games before watching the Avs), but obviously I've followed the fortunes of my favorite player. It seems to me Selanne hasn't had the chance to regain any chemistry with Kariya, or to form any with Sakic. Injuries have a part to play, but Selanne's also been given a very short rope. Any goal scorer will tell you that confidence is half the battle. Selanne's is likely to be as low as its ever been. Part of the job of the coach is to put his players into positions where they'll succeed, and from a distance I don't really think thats been the case here. Again, more than a fair portion of Selanne's season-long slump falls on his shoulders. The popular view of him is that he's in a steep career decline, however his production actually increased by ten points last season. A drop would be somewhat understandable, but a drop THIS large speaks to something more than just his play.

This isn't the biggest of the Avs problems either. The fact is that this team could, and has, get by with Selanne simply not being a defensive liability and chipping in the odd goal. However, the goals have stopped coming from EVERYONE. Also, again from a distance, the fortunes of this club (offensively anyways), seem to rise and fall with Forsberg being in the lineup. Not a great indicator for the effects of the coaching staff.

I dunno guys, I could be talking out of my rear here. I haven't seen the team play game in, game out. I check the gamesheets, check out the boxscore. Maybe catch every 6th or 7th game on tv. Maybe Selanne is as bad as his numbers would suggest, maybe his injured knee is really that debilitating that it'd cause a 30 point drop in production. Maybe this group isn't as good as we all thought. However, I've still been baffled by a number of Granato's ploys with the forwards this season, and the drop in production from a few of these guys (Selanne, Kariya, Hejduk...yes, Milan's on pace for a 20 point drop) and the problem the team as a whole is having right now, just seems to be too much to me. I'm definitely no expert, and if I'm off-base, well i'm not entirely surprised. And I'm not saying Granato should be fired. It just seems like SOMETHING is off-kilter here.

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03-02-2004, 01:40 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swinginutter
This thread is funny. I mean get rid of Tony Granato? Why? Because his team is playing with no heart, which he's been known for his whole career. It's the players responsibility out there, to show up every night. They're in a slump like "angered hab" said, and every teams goes through it. If they go into panic mode (like they are) and make a stupid deal like aquiring Kolzig, it will definitely send that team into a tailspin! Aebischer is solid, and i'm so over that BS every year of having a playoff goalie. Where they ***** are they supposed to start if they're never given that chance. They need to stand pat, and suck it up! I'm a hardcore Kings' fan and we've dealt with more ***** the last two years than any team combined. I'd love to have a roster like the Avs have right now. And as far as the line juggling, check around the league because AM does that same ***** over here in LA. As do many other coaches. Is it TG's fault that Kariya and his bed buddy, ain't translating what everybody thought they would on the ice. They were big fish in a little pond, and now they're playing with all this talent and don't have much to show for. They asked to go there! Playoffs are not even here yet, so they just need to grab their sacks and start playing the way they can!
You actually make a few decent points in all the nonsense. The best of which is that it isn't the playoffs yet. This team is built for the Cup, and perhaps Granato's building the team up for the playoffs. Maybe his strategies will payoff, and Selanne, Kariya, and the rest of them will suddenly start lighting it up come playoff time. I mean, really Selanne could finish the season with 15 goals, but if he scores a few key goals on the way to a Cup, then its all worth it. However, neither Selanne or Kariya are complaining about Granato, so I don't think its a matter of them being pissed at the lack of playing together, or them needing to "grab their sacks".

I'd also agree with your comment about playoff goaltenders. They definitely need a solid backup, but Aebischer's earned his playoff shot.

I'll point out, however, that theres a difference between slumping and playing without heart. I'll also suggest that you undervalue the impact the coach has on the team. When a team slumps the players shoulder a great deal of repsonsibility, but the coach shoulders a good deal of the responsibility as well. Otherwise, whats the point of having a coach do more than open the gates for line changes?

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03-02-2004, 01:55 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
This team is built for the Cup, and perhaps Granato's building the team up for the playoffs. Maybe his strategies will payoff, and Selanne, Kariya, and the rest of them will suddenly start lighting it up come playoff time.
I have seen absolutely nothing that would indicate that Tony Granato has a stategy or is capable of formulating one. He certainly had no strategy in the playoffs last year. And if the Avs insist on sticking with him this year, I will doubt they will achieve the results they want.

Even if one does not believe that Granato is the problem, it is very difficult to see him as the solution...

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03-02-2004, 02:59 AM
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While this is just my opinion, I think Lacroix should trade most of the "Avs fans." They either want a "blockbuster deal" or the coach/gm to be fired. I cant wait till 2034 when the Avs are in the basement. You guys will be long gone. Personally, I love a lot of your players but the way you guys behave is shocking sometimes.

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03-02-2004, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicpea
While this is just my opinion, I think Lacroix should trade most of the "Avs fans." They either want a "blockbuster deal" or the coach/gm to be fired. I cant wait till 2034 when the Avs are in the basement. You guys will be long gone. Personally, I love a lot of your players but the way you guys behave is shocking sometimes.
If the Avs manage to stay out of the basement until 2034, I will be the one who is shocked.

All fans complain and call for change when their team is underachieving. Avs fans are no different...they are just held to different standards by some of the more self-righteous posters on this board.


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03-02-2004, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Wawan 66
The best deal for the Avs : Selanne, Kariya out! I don't know which player can be traded to Colorado but these 2 players do nothing this year. Great dispointment for all the Avs fans. Maybe, they can get a 1st draft pick. It'd be a good idea in order to improve their prospects roster which the worst of the league.
Well...the Avs are struggling with the offense right now. You are suggesting getting draft picks for Selanne/Kariya? Who goes into their spots? The Avs already have guys like McCormick, Worrell, Cummins, McCallister and Brigley in their lineup NOW. What other 4th line guys come up to take Selanne and Kariya's spot?

I know these guys have struggled, but I think its a combination of things. I think Granato is miss-using Selanne. He wants him to be a great 2 way player. Well...I dont think thats why they picked him up. And I also think Kariya is playing hurt. Wrist injuries take FOREVER to heal. I hurt my wrist almost 3 years ago, and even these days I feel some pain while doing simple things.

The Avs are struggling right now, but trading Selanne and Kariya away for draft picks wont help. Atleast not this year. If the Avs throw up the white flag (which wont happen) then I could fathom it. But I find it highly unlikely.

But...what do I know?


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03-02-2004, 09:47 AM
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why dont they hire Quinville as head coach
and put maurice as assistant

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03-02-2004, 11:13 AM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
You actually make a few decent points in all the nonsense. The best of which is that it isn't the playoffs yet. This team is built for the Cup, and perhaps Granato's building the team up for the playoffs. Maybe his strategies will payoff, and Selanne, Kariya, and the rest of them will suddenly start lighting it up come playoff time. I mean, really Selanne could finish the season with 15 goals, but if he scores a few key goals on the way to a Cup, then its all worth it. However, neither Selanne or Kariya are complaining about Granato, so I don't think its a matter of them being pissed at the lack of playing together, or them needing to "grab their sacks".

I'd also agree with your comment about playoff goaltenders. They definitely need a solid backup, but Aebischer's earned his playoff shot.

I'll point out, however, that theres a difference between slumping and playing without heart. I'll also suggest that you undervalue the impact the coach has on the team. When a team slumps the players shoulder a great deal of repsonsibility, but the coach shoulders a good deal of the responsibility as well. Otherwise, whats the point of having a coach do more than open the gates for line changes?
what a joke, i wouldnt be suprised if half the members on this board coached the avs this year that wouldnt be where they are today, what postive effect has tony had on the avs. it has ruined selanne confidence ndfor that matter you are wrong as selanne has complained about coaching earlier in the season.

to help u understand how crappy a coach granato is i am challenging avs fans to list at least 5 things granato has done this year to illustrate why lacroix must get quenville or another QUALIFIED coach.

1) dressing 3 strictly goons for games- why the hell do u need 3 guys who bring nothing to the game other than fighting when fighting barely plays a role in the nhl anymore, macillister barely fights or takes the body, worrell is a penalty machine and cummins bless his heart couldnt make the penguins never mind playing for a contender! yet this idoit dresses all 3 even thought it is not a rivalary game, i could see if u were the isles or rags for one of their tilts but its not.

2) this one really bugs- sitting on a lead and taking NO SHOTS AT ALL! there have been at least 4 games this year where the avs took zero-3 shots on goal in the final period, add to the fact that oppostion scored in ever one of those third periods andu can really see granato's brillance, this team best defence should be their ability to trap teams in their own zone with their offensive skills but granato tells them to dump and stay back, i could see doing this for the last 10 minutes or so but the whole friggin period! come on. let all analyst say as u stay back too much your in trouble.

3) the line juggling- ok like u sid ever coach does it but does AM do it 50 times a game each game, i am serious he does like 50 line combos every flippin game. selanne plays with guys with hustle but lack the hands selanne needs to make plays.

4) he gave martin skoula more ice time than derek morris in like 60% of the games, this idoit is the reason morris is having an off-year and now is in trade talks, because granato is giving a guy used to 25min+ around 12-15, thats brutal and just adds to another player granato has ruined.

5) this guy refuses or simply cant match lines, when a line of larsen-macillister-cummins is on for 2 goals againgst the thornton-knuble-murray line u know your coach is a moron, last night the 4th line was on for another key goal in the hockey game againgst the oppositions top line,that crap can not an should not happen!

so avs fans please add on to show why tony is the farthest thing from a coach!

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03-02-2004, 11:17 AM
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Fire the moron. I've said that all along. He hasn't the foggiest idea what he's doing.

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03-02-2004, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by DRL
what a joke, i wouldnt be suprised if half the members on this board coached the avs this year that wouldnt be where they are today, what postive effect has tony had on the avs. it has ruined selanne confidence ndfor that matter you are wrong as selanne has complained about coaching earlier in the season.

to help u understand how crappy a coach granato is i am challenging avs fans to list at least 5 things granato has done this year to illustrate why lacroix must get quenville or another QUALIFIED coach.

1) dressing 3 strictly goons for games- why the hell do u need 3 guys who bring nothing to the game other than fighting when fighting barely plays a role in the nhl anymore, macillister barely fights or takes the body, worrell is a penalty machine and cummins bless his heart couldnt make the penguins never mind playing for a contender! yet this idoit dresses all 3 even thought it is not a rivalary game, i could see if u were the isles or rags for one of their tilts but its not.

2) this one really bugs- sitting on a lead and taking NO SHOTS AT ALL! there have been at least 4 games this year where the avs took zero-3 shots on goal in the final period, add to the fact that oppostion scored in ever one of those third periods andu can really see granato's brillance, this team best defence should be their ability to trap teams in their own zone with their offensive skills but granato tells them to dump and stay back, i could see doing this for the last 10 minutes or so but the whole friggin period! come on. let all analyst say as u stay back too much your in trouble.

3) the line juggling- ok like u sid ever coach does it but does AM do it 50 times a game each game, i am serious he does like 50 line combos every flippin game. selanne plays with guys with hustle but lack the hands selanne needs to make plays.

4) he gave martin skoula more ice time than derek morris in like 60% of the games, this idoit is the reason morris is having an off-year and now is in trade talks, because granato is giving a guy used to 25min+ around 12-15, thats brutal and just adds to another player granato has ruined.

5) this guy refuses or simply cant match lines, when a line of larsen-macillister-cummins is on for 2 goals againgst the thornton-knuble-murray line u know your coach is a moron, last night the 4th line was on for another key goal in the hockey game againgst the oppositions top line,that crap can not an should not happen!

so avs fans please add on to show why tony is the farthest thing from a coach!
You follow your team on a constant basis, so you know better than I do as to what happens when they play. But I watch a boatload of Avs games, and all i'm saying is that you can't put the blame on one guy or his coaching staff for that matter. I'm not trying to protect TG, because I have serious problems with AM in Los Angeles and he may get coach of the year. But in the end they know more than we do, and all we can do is voice our opinion.
Your first issue is why i'm so pissed off with our coaching staff. Why do you dress three goons? Lets figure out why you guys haven't dealt with so many injuries? You guys police your own actions, and although three may be excessive, at least other teams know that they can't ***** with your star players. On every game that we've (LA) had a star or superstar injured, there was nobody in the line-up to get any type of justice. You also have to remember that TG and RT were no softies when they played.
As far as your other issues, you have to look at TG's numbers since he's been in Colorado, and they're simply phenonmenal. Over 75 wins and most likely 2 divisional titles in two years. I'll take that! And, maybe a cup to boot!

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03-02-2004, 12:09 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRL
what a joke, i wouldnt be suprised if half the members on this board coached the avs this year that wouldnt be where they are today, what postive effect has tony had on the avs. it has ruined selanne confidence ndfor that matter you are wrong as selanne has complained about coaching earlier in the season.

to help u understand how crappy a coach granato is i am challenging avs fans to list at least 5 things granato has done this year to illustrate why lacroix must get quenville or another QUALIFIED coach.

1) dressing 3 strictly goons for games- why the hell do u need 3 guys who bring nothing to the game other than fighting when fighting barely plays a role in the nhl anymore, macillister barely fights or takes the body, worrell is a penalty machine and cummins bless his heart couldnt make the penguins never mind playing for a contender! yet this idoit dresses all 3 even thought it is not a rivalary game, i could see if u were the isles or rags for one of their tilts but its not.

2) this one really bugs- sitting on a lead and taking NO SHOTS AT ALL! there have been at least 4 games this year where the avs took zero-3 shots on goal in the final period, add to the fact that oppostion scored in ever one of those third periods andu can really see granato's brillance, this team best defence should be their ability to trap teams in their own zone with their offensive skills but granato tells them to dump and stay back, i could see doing this for the last 10 minutes or so but the whole friggin period! come on. let all analyst say as u stay back too much your in trouble.

3) the line juggling- ok like u sid ever coach does it but does AM do it 50 times a game each game, i am serious he does like 50 line combos every flippin game. selanne plays with guys with hustle but lack the hands selanne needs to make plays.

4) he gave martin skoula more ice time than derek morris in like 60% of the games, this idoit is the reason morris is having an off-year and now is in trade talks, because granato is giving a guy used to 25min+ around 12-15, thats brutal and just adds to another player granato has ruined.

5) this guy refuses or simply cant match lines, when a line of larsen-macillister-cummins is on for 2 goals againgst the thornton-knuble-murray line u know your coach is a moron, last night the 4th line was on for another key goal in the hockey game againgst the oppositions top line,that crap can not an should not happen!

so avs fans please add on to show why tony is the farthest thing from a coach!
Easy buddy, read the post I made previous to this one. I lean towards agreeing with you. I'm simply trying to keep an open mind where its all concerned, because I don't get to see the team play regularly. And Selanne hardly complained about the coaching. He said something along the lines of "we need to play together for more than a period to gain chemistry", likely in response to a question from a reporter about why he and Kariya haven't showed the chemistry they held previously. By no means can that be taken as "complaining about coaching".

Again, I'm just keeping an open mind about it all. I don't watch enough games to be an expert. I'm not going to say a coach should be fired when I don't watch his team play game-in, game-out.

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03-02-2004, 12:34 PM
  #22
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Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
Easy buddy, read the post I made previous to this one. I lean towards agreeing with you. I'm simply trying to keep an open mind where its all concerned, because I don't get to see the team play regularly. And Selanne hardly complained about the coaching. He said something along the lines of "we need to play together for more than a period to gain chemistry", likely in response to a question from a reporter about why he and Kariya haven't showed the chemistry they held previously. By no means can that be taken as "complaining about coaching".

Again, I'm just keeping an open mind about it all. I don't watch enough games to be an expert. I'm not going to say a coach should be fired when I don't watch his team play game-in, game-out.

i am sorry if i came across as attacking you, your post was the last one i read before responding, i used your post for the teemu example, he was really pissed at granato awhile back, it was reported somewhere.

anyways the coaching issue has always been a sorespot for the avs since the gm's son ood friend got the job v

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03-02-2004, 06:05 PM
  #23
Stastny
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I personally feel that we shouldn't axe Granato just so that he's gone, but we should axe him for a serious upgrade in coaching talent, ie. Joel Quenneville. Granato can handle talent when they do what they are supposed to, but he has not shown any capacity for motivation and creative thinking in tight spots. Winning a cup takes four rounds of tough hockey, and the coach needs to be able to guide their team through it, rather than just call for a line change every so often.

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03-02-2004, 06:29 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stastny
I personally feel that we shouldn't axe Granato just so that he's gone, but we should axe him for a serious upgrade in coaching talent, ie. Joel Quenneville. Granato can handle talent when they do what they are supposed to, but he has not shown any capacity for motivation and creative thinking in tight spots. Winning a cup takes four rounds of tough hockey, and the coach needs to be able to guide their team through it, rather than just call for a line change every so often.
Exactly, Stastny. Exactly.

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03-02-2004, 07:07 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by swinginutter
You follow your team on a constant basis, so you know better than I do as to what happens when they play. But I watch a boatload of Avs games, and all i'm saying is that you can't put the blame on one guy or his coaching staff for that matter. I'm not trying to protect TG, because I have serious problems with AM in Los Angeles and he may get coach of the year. But in the end they know more than we do, and all we can do is voice our opinion.
Your first issue is why i'm so pissed off with our coaching staff. Why do you dress three goons? Lets figure out why you guys haven't dealt with so many injuries? You guys police your own actions, and although three may be excessive, at least other teams know that they can't ***** with your star players. On every game that we've (LA) had a star or superstar injured, there was nobody in the line-up to get any type of justice. You also have to remember that TG and RT were no softies when they played.
As far as your other issues, you have to look at TG's numbers since he's been in Colorado, and they're simply phenonmenal. Over 75 wins and most likely 2 divisional titles in two years. I'll take that! And, maybe a cup to boot!



Please, your cracking me up!

First of all, Avalanche have had TONS of injuries, their top 6 have played in less then 40% of the games...

Second of all, I have NEVER EVER seen such mixing of lines going on as TG does game in game out. SERIOUSLY!!! I have yet to see a SINGLE game where Tony G has kept consistent lines, not a SINGLE one.

Then the whole point about making Teemu a defensive player, what the hell has Tony G been smoking?

I think you guys need to leave the criticism to those who know TG and his coahcing habits. Anything BUT the cup would be a disappointment for the Avs, and I will bet my money it will NOT happen with Granato.

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