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Old
11-21-2008, 12:23 PM
  #51
DontStepanMe
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
So I guess making the playoffs, beating the Devils and adding 5 young guys into the lineup to begin their development (including two of your top defenseman and one of your top 3 centers) is being in neutral .
i still think this team isn't improving at all so yea we are stuck in neutral. and we can't add the types of players we need (ie a sniper or top 6 winger) because we have no freakin cap room. Even if we did we would have to take away from either defense, or center. Again neutral.

until we can free up that cap room and address the issues properly I don't see us getting past the second round of the playoffs (i don't even see this team making the playoffs) so that would be stuck in neutral.

In fact last year we won one less game in the playoffs, so technically we took a step back. Sometimes you need to take a step back to go forward, but in the case of this team's makeup and contract situations. I think we might just start to go into reverse.

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11-21-2008, 12:27 PM
  #52
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UFA does not equal big paycheck. Look at Lecalvalier, Richards, St. Louis, Ovechkin, Crosby, heatly, Sakic, Lidstrom etc.... they never were UFAs. they all have big contracts. They earned them though w/ extremely good play.
All but 2 of those players would have been UFA's, would have tested the market if they didn't get an offer they thought was fair and would have gotten the league maximum in some cases.

This isn't even a hockey discussion. It's pretty basic free market economics. You can disagree with the choices that the team made, but it's how the system works, period.

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11-21-2008, 12:27 PM
  #53
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Singin,

I said the PRE-LOCKOUT ISLANDERS. not the current one. They had players in the farm system. they chose to trade them all away. But the Pre-Lockout Islanders were always in the Playoffs but never did anything in them. Thus they didn't get high end picks. Thus their prospect pool started dwindling.

unlike them we don't make boneheaded trades though. But we do make bonheaded signings.

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11-21-2008, 12:56 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
All but 2 of those players would have been UFA's, would have tested the market if they didn't get an offer they thought was fair and would have gotten the league maximum in some cases.

This isn't even a hockey discussion. It's pretty basic free market economics. You can disagree with the choices that the team made, but it's how the system works, period.
I know economics. It still doesn't mean that the right thing to do is sign overpaid players. What they were paid was re-signed Superstar money. Does that make you feel better? Sometimes you can spend money better by not overpaying players so grossly like they did.

it still doesnt change the fact taht they were both BAD signings. which is the point. I don't care the reason that they were overpaid (which was because of the market), but the fact that they are overpaid, and taking up valuable cap space. Now we have to face other problems b/c of their signings.

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11-21-2008, 01:24 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
Singin,

I said the PRE-LOCKOUT ISLANDERS. not the current one. They had players in the farm system. they chose to trade them all away. But the Pre-Lockout Islanders were always in the Playoffs but never did anything in them. Thus they didn't get high end picks. Thus their prospect pool started dwindling.

unlike them we don't make boneheaded trades though. But we do make bonheaded signings.
I still don't see the connection.

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11-21-2008, 01:39 PM
  #56
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it still doesnt change the fact taht they were both BAD signings. which is the point.
That's an opinion, not a fact. Only time will tell if the signings are bad or not.

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11-21-2008, 02:21 PM
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yes we are stuck in neutral, and will continue to be until we unload some big contracts.
Huh? Unload the best players on the team will lead to missing the playoffs which by definition means going in reverse? No?



In any discussion with Renney, people will defend him by pointing to him making the PO every year, being in first right now, best defense... basically all the stats the indicate success which is fair. But then you guys say making the playoffs every year isn't enough for Sather (wouldn't he be one of the few GMs to make the PO every year?). He needs to go further each year. They're in first but that doesn't mean anything in November. He has to either win the cup or draft a lotter pick. Sather is lucky to have Lundqvist because that is the key to winning, but he doesn't get credit for drafting him and Renney's winning goes beyond Lundqvist. Sounds a bit unfair to me.

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11-21-2008, 03:02 PM
  #58
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Why I oughta...
give him a spanking?

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11-21-2008, 03:52 PM
  #59
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This is becoming a serious debate. Can I just bring up the question- which players would you guys rather have had for the money they've spent? Jagr? Campbell? Would any ONE player being here instead of either Redden or Roszival really make us that much more of a contender? The only player I thought we've missed out on in the last few years who would have improved our D drastically was Jay Mckee. because when he became a UFA he was everything we needed on the blueline. I'm sure there are others that people can bring up especially Hossa but we supposedly made a play for him and he decided to take less money to go play for the Cup Champs...what exactly would you guys want this team to look like right now?


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11-21-2008, 04:01 PM
  #60
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I think you're right to an extent. I think it's obvious from the type of defensemen that Sather has brought in here that he wants that run and gun style. The question I have is what would this team look like if it has less so called 'puck moving' dmen and a couple more guys who were just in your face hard hitting defense first blue liners?
I'll tell you right now I would take the latter. We played all of those years with Leetch. Before him you had Park. I mean you really only need that one key guy who can bring the puck up and be more of an offensive d-man.

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11-21-2008, 04:56 PM
  #61
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I'll tell you right now I would take the latter. We played all of those years with Leetch. Before him you had Park. I mean you really only need that one key guy who can bring the puck up and be more of an offensive d-man.






I agree. And that's one thing I will put the blame on Sather for. I mean Neil Smith understood that. And that's why we had guys like Beukeboom and Samuelsson and Lidster and Lowe on our blue line during his tenure.(generously overlooking the additions of guys like Quintal and Lefebvre for the sake of argument). It wasn't til Slats got here that we had to deal with the likes of Poti and Ozo and the counteless other clowns who were meant to be puck movers. It's a lil disturbing with Rozsi Redden and Kalinin signed long term and our only real defensive prospects being guys who are of the same mold- Sangs and Del Zotto....It's a shame Dave Liffiton couldn't have progressed more...

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11-21-2008, 05:00 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by JamesG1221 View Post
I agree. And that's one thing I will put the blame on Sather for. I mean Neil Smith understood that. And that's why we had guys like Beukeboom and Samuelsson and Lidster and even Karpotsev on our blue line during his tenure. It wasn't til Slats got here that we had to deal with the likes of Poti and Ozo and the counteless other clowns who were meant to be puck movers. It's a lil disturbing with Rozsi Redden and Kalinin signed long term and our only real defensive prospects being guys who are of the same mold- Sangs and Del Zotto....It's a shame Dave Liffiton couldn't have progressed more...
Kalinen has a long deal?

Its a shame alot of guys didnt progress more after we aquired them. You know whugh i'm talking about

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11-21-2008, 05:45 PM
  #63
NYR Sting
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Look, this is how I see Glen Sather's tenure with the Rangers: From the time when he took over for Neil Smith until the trade deadline of the season before the lockout, 2003-04, he was horrendous. One terrible acquisition after another.

Sather deserves praise for getting Bure, because Bure could have completely turned this team's fortunes around had he not gotten injured. A happy, healthy and motivated Bure would have instantly given us a superstar scorer to build around, not to mention a damn fun player to watch. For that, "Slats" deserves some credit.

But Bure aside, his moves were brutal. At the '04 deadline, he made some decent, though not particularly incredible trades. If you recall, most of those trades did not bring back anything of significance in return. Maybe if Jarkko Immonen would have been given a real chance...but I digress. However, it was implied, at least in my opinion and the opinion of others that Sather was dedicated to a necessary rebuild of the organization.

In 2005-06, Glen Sather got extremely lucky. Everything that could have went right for him did. Henrik Lundqvist emerged faster than even the team could have hoped as a franchise goaltender. Petr Prucha cane out of nowhere to score 30 goals. 30! Michal Rozsival and Marek Malik somehow managed to be the serviceable first pair of a pretty solid blueline. Michael Nylander, Martin Straka, and Marty Rucinsky all revitalized their careers on the same team, in the same season. Even nobodies like Jason Ward and Dominic Moore were better than expected.

So he and Renney ran with it. Except it was clear after 2006-07 that Jaromir Jagr and even Brendan Shanahan were only going to take you so far and only for so long. Unfortunately, without them, the Rangers weren't much, Lundqvist aside. There was a lot of commitment, discipline and energy, but not much talent or skill. The organization's prospect pool produced a number of quality role players thanks to a much-improved scouting department, but there were still no impact players among the ranks. Later, we had Alexei Cherepanov, but without him, the cupboard is bare for high-end talent, at least where forwards are concerned.

But the short-lived success of the Jagr-era Rangers should only have delayed the Rangers rebuilding effort, not put an end to it altogether. Sure, you can point to the fact that the Rangers are one of the youngest teams in the league and that perhaps the team's best players, like Henrik Lundqvist, Brandon Dubinsky, Nikolai Zherdev, Marc Staal and Dan Girardi, have all yet to reach their prime. But when they do, it's unlikely that either Dubinsky or Zherdev will ever become the game-breaking scorer that the team sorely lacks.

Simply look at the teams that, along with the Blueshirts, are among the Eastern Conference's elite: the Montreal Canadiens, the Pittsburgh Penguins, the Washington Capitals and the Boston Bruins. Each has at least one, if not more, big-time (or soon-to-be) goal scorers that were drafted when those teams underwent real, honest reconstructions.

Sather never bothered to go all the way, though. Instead, he decided to take a mediocre team with aging stars and a great goalie and add semi-star complimentary players while wildly overpaying for them. Sure, all of the role players are relatively young and good and will likely be around for a while, but what good is that when your core is, compared to almost every team in the league, completely mediocre, except for the goaltender position?

Instead of coming out of a tough rebuild with a starting lineup's worth of young superstars, the Rangers have Henrik Lundqvist and more young complimentary role players than any other team in the league. But no star goalscorers.

Worse, not much of a chance of getting one any time soon. And I don't see us winning any Cups without one, especially not with the core (Gomez, Drury, Rozsival, Redden).

Just to be clear, it isn't just because I like saying that my team has one that I desperately wish the Rangers could acquire a star goalscorer. Obviously, any fan would love for their team to have one. But I truly believe that right now, you need one to win. I don't think the scoring by committee thing works when you don't have at least one or two guys putting up big numbers. Someone has to be there, a go-to guy offensively.

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Old
11-21-2008, 05:47 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by JamesG1221 View Post
I agree. And that's one thing I will put the blame on Sather for. I mean Neil Smith understood that. And that's why we had guys like Beukeboom and Samuelsson and Lidster and Lowe on our blue line during his tenure.(generously overlooking the additions of guys like Quintal and Lefebvre for the sake of argument). It wasn't til Slats got here that we had to deal with the likes of Poti and Ozo and the counteless other clowns who were meant to be puck movers. It's a lil disturbing with Rozsi Redden and Kalinin signed long term and our only real defensive prospects being guys who are of the same mold- Sangs and Del Zotto....It's a shame Dave Liffiton couldn't have progressed more...
I personally thought that bringing in Commodore at 6'5" 230lbs couldn't have hurt this team. He's obviously big, tough, can hit hard, will drop the gloves and help the team protect their cornerstone of the franchise. I mean at the very least what about Kurt Sauer who went and signed with Columbus I believe? While we're waiting for his younger brother Michael to prove he can stay healthy and be a stud back there on the blue line, we couldn't use his 6'4" 220lbs hard hitting older brother? This guys not afraid to drop the gloves either. Heck, Slats could've picked up both of these guys and without Rozival and Redden and a tougher Mara, Girardi and Staal this could have been a really tough defensive squad for any team to deal with.

We're too weak. We don't intimidate opposing teams top forward enough and are not getting out of the East this year. You're absolutely correct. You need to have a Beukeboom in there to basically send the message that their will not be any garbage going on or guys like semin running into our best player in the goal crease.

We wouldn't even have a need for Orr really anymore as well. Thus giving us a fourth line just as good as the third. IMO, much better team. Disagree?

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