Isn't even about Briere hate, I think he's a fantastic player on the PP. However, to act like our PP has been some disaster without him is simply not living in reality...and holding him up as some outlier of offensive production on this team isn't true either. Richards has just flat been better offensively than Briere.
The broadcast was absolutely horrible though. It was tough to watch.
Did you watch CSN or MSG?
I watched the MSG broadcast but the Buffalo announcers suck royally. Ask for icing when the team is a man down and mix up players of the opposing team. They were constantly calling Richards "Hartnell" (18 and 19 is soooooo hard to distinguish...) and Metro "Vaananen" (13 and 23...). Well, I didn't expect too much from announcers that after 3 years still can't pronounce the name of their star player.
I only watched MSG because it had the better picture. I would have tried to combine it with the audio of the CSN broadcast but unfortunately the CSN stream I had was lagging behind.
I dont think so, I dont remember that many flyer jerseys in the stands right behind the goalie. That looks more like a home game, I could easily be wrong though. Happens all the time.
Nope, those are the away jerseys. I watched the highlights, and that was definitely last night, there were that many fans there!
Did you watch CSN or MSG?
I watched the MSG broadcast but the Buffalo announcers suck royally. Ask for icing when the team is a man down and mix up players of the opposing team. They were constantly calling Richards "Hartnell" (18 and 19 is soooooo hard to distinguish...) and Metro "Vaananen" (13 and 23...). Well, I didn't expect too much from announcers that after 3 years still can't pronounce the name of their star player.
I only watched MSG because it had the better picture. I would have tried to combine it with the audio of the CSN broadcast but unfortunately the CSN stream I had was lagging behind.
It was broadcast on CN8 last night, which is a station that should never be given anything important to broadcast as the resolution (for whatever reason) is simply horrid for them. For example, I had no idea Hartnell lifted the puck like that until they showed the replay.
i don't see the flyers as an elite offensive team. they're very good, and if you look at results, sure, we're really good. but until we can put sustained pressure on an opposing team, maintain puck possession, and score goals consistently up and down the roster, i can't call us elite.
we look fine without briere; hopefully we're even better when he gets back.
4th in the league...Briere has played less than HALF of the games to this point. If Briere's absence was killing our PP, we'd be in the middle of the league, not one of the most dangerous PPs out there.
I mean, are you serious with this? Pittsburgh would trade PPs with us right now, and you're complaining about what they're doing out there?
And you think my critique of Carle is a joke.
You're talking about a 10 game sample size here. Briere had 37 PP points last year and along with Kimmo and Knuble were the main catalysts for the PP.
I'm not saying that our PP is going to be 1st with Briere and 30th without him, but there will eventually be a downgrade.
The fact remains that you are creaming yourself over a 10 game sample size and declaring us to have an elite offensive without Briere.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Richards has been the better offensive player of the two and it isn't even close. He's been a better even strength player, and a dangerous point player on the PP. More than half of Briere's points come off of the PP--something he excels at--but that doesn't equate to him being a "better offensive player" than Richards.
As far as the secondary assist comment...you say this as if Briere doesn't pick up those points, too?
Is Briere more important? I'd agree with that...but our production on the PP has been more than fine without him on the PP. Elite in the league, in fact.
Well, Richards had more assists than Briere last year (in less games)...and is on pace to blow that number out of the water this year. So if you think Briere is "an elite playmaker," then you're going to have to concede that Richards is too.
All about who you play with. As I demonstrated in a previous post, in the 25-30 games last year when Briere played with competent offensive players, he was over a PPG pace and was a positive player. This is also the same guy who led the league in ES points in 06-07.
It's funny how so many people here are quick to rush and defend Downie for his treatment by Stevens, but then we see Briere stuck with Knuble for 50 games last year and it's Briere's fault, not Stevens'.
Richie is obviously benefiting from the talent around him, heck, you can't crucify him for that, he's just doing his job, but he's playing with one of the elite goalscorers in the league, obviously he's going to have pretty good numbers.
Rob Brown had 115 points in 89-90, while Brian Propp had Luc Robitaille had 98, but who's the better offensive player?
I enjoy how you use the straight stats argument when it suits because by your logic, Rob Brown is a better offensive player than Luc Robitaille and Joe Sakic.
EDIT: BTW if I were you and attempting to structure this argument, I would go for the fact that Briere needs to have good chemistry with his linemates unlike Richie who can play with anything, definitely a point in Richards' favor.
shouldnt it take more than a ******** "slash" that had no effect on the play, while we were already down a man, to give them another 5 on 3.
and, maybe its just me, but why did it seem to take 10 years to review that "miss of the season" no-goal. after seing the replay once i knew it wasnt a goal.
were they trying to appease the home crowd, or maybe they really wanted to give the goal to the sabres and just kept saying "look at it again'
i don't see the flyers as an elite offensive team. they're very good, and if you look at results, sure, we're really good. but until we can put sustained pressure on an opposing team, maintain puck possession, and score goals consistently up and down the roster, i can't call us elite.
we look fine without briere; hopefully we're even better when he gets back.
We're an elite offensive team...this group of forwards should score a lot of goals this year, and the PP should be good all year as well (with or without Briere). However, being an elite offensive team does not an elite team make, so we have to improve in other areas of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh
You're talking about a 10 game sample size here. Briere had 37 PP points last year and along with Kimmo and Knuble were the main catalysts for the PP.
I'm not saying that our PP is going to be 1st with Briere and 30th without him, but there will eventually be a downgrade.
The fact remains that you are creaming yourself over a 10 game sample size and declaring us to have an elite offensive without Briere.
Wait, your using sample argument against me when you're using that same exact sample to argue that our PP has been struggling? Holy Hypocrite Batman!
I'm creaming myself over nothing. I'm pointing out that your argument that our PP has been a struggling mess is wrong any way you look at it. I'm pointing out that your claims that the PP is "missing" Briere is factually wrong anyway you look at it. Might that change over time? Certainly, but the loss of Briere hasn't slowed them down one bit, and, therefore, you can't put forward the argument that you're making here.
And, to counter your 37 PP point argument...Briere played the majority of last season. What's to say our PP wouldn't have been fine without him last year given the emergence of Richards? Something neither of us know, so it's not really worth debating. But what is absolutely certain is the strident argument about Briere's absence hurting us so much is false. In fact, we've been a demonstrably better team without him to this point in the season...does that necessarily indicate that Briere was the problem in the losses? No. However, it does indicate that it's pretty silly to act like he's holding this team back when all but one of their wins have come without him in the lineup.
Quote:
All about who you play with. As I demonstrated in a previous post, in the 25-30 games last year when Briere played with competent offensive players, he was over a PPG pace and was a positive player. This is also the same guy who led the league in ES points in 06-07.
It's funny how so many people here are quick to rush and defend Downie for his treatment by Stevens, but then we see Briere stuck with Knuble for 50 games last year and it's Briere's fault, not Stevens'.
Richie is obviously benefiting from the talent around him, heck, you can't crucify him for that, he's just doing his job, but he's playing with one of the elite goalscorers in the league, obviously he's going to have pretty good numbers.
The logic here is so flawed and pathetic it borders on not being worthy engagement. Richards linemates were juggled ALL of last season, but you know what the one constant was? Richards centered the best line we were putting out there. You set him up with Umberger and Lupul...they put points on the board. You set him up with Downie and Hartnell...they put points on the board.
I mean, give me a friggin break. You say I use stats and don't contextualize crap...try painting with a wider brush while looking at the team, as opposed to just using samples that prove your case to yourself. EVERY center on this team had their linemates swapped throughout the year last year. Every single one of them. The "poor Briere is getting screwed over by Stevens" trope of storytelling last year is simply stupid. No one had consistent linemates, yet Briere was being persecuted by Stevens on that front and should be viewed differently than Richards or Carter? Cem on, it doesn't even come close to passing the smell test.
And, yes, lets get back to Knuble...who clearly shouldn't have been playing with Briere...but ends up with Carter and suddenly we have a really effective line of Carter between Knuble and Upshall. You see all this and don't think to yourself: perhaps there are, in fact, some deficiencies to Briere's game?
Quote:
Rob Brown had 115 points in 89-90, while Brian Propp had Luc Robitaille had 98, but who's the better offensive player?
I enjoy how you use the straight stats argument when it suits because by your logic, Rob Brown is a better offensive player than Luc Robitaille and Joe Sakic.
Holy Red Herring Batman!
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh
EDIT: BTW if I were you and attempting to structure this argument, I would go for the fact that Briere needs to have good chemistry with his linemates unlike Richie who can play with anything, definitely a point in Richards' favor.
BTW, if I were you and attempting to structure this argument--Briere is elite offensive player, and Richards is not--I wouldn't add caveats stating that Richards is so good that he can play with anyone on his wings and still produce, while Briere is utterly dependent on linemates to help him out.
I started typing out a response to this. I really did.
Then I considered a couple things.
- Is it worth spending 20 minutes refighting an argument that was already had last year when I was proven right once the guy got a decent linemate?
- Is it worth typing the exact same argument every single time in a different variation?
- Is it worth pointing out again the lengths people will go to defend Downie and Hartnell while throwing Briere under the bus? Yes Downie, the same guy who just got suspended again for not being able to control himself and continues to get a free pass on this board.
- Is it worth arguing against somebody who recently tried to argue that Carle wasn't living up to his contract after 5 games in a Flyers unifor?
And the net answer, unsurprisingly, ended up being, NO.
Richie is obviously benefiting from the talent around him, heck, you can't crucify him for that, he's just doing his job, but he's playing with one of the elite goalscorers in the league, obviously he's going to have pretty good numbers.
Actually Richie is on a two game point slump while playing with Gagne. He can put up points with anybody on his wings, though. He proved that last year and this year so far (he's had Knuble, Gagne, Briere, Lupul, Hartnell, Downie, Upshall, Asham and Nodl as his wings - you know, everybody on the team - and is over a PPG).
If we're entering an "elite" discussion - I think it's more elite to be able to produce with anybody on your wings than cry like a ***** and do nothing if Gagne or friggin' Vinny Prospal aren't your wings.
I started typing out a response to this. I really did.
Then I considered a couple things.
- Is it worth spending 20 minutes refighting an argument that was already had last year when I was proven right once the guy got a decent linemate?
You had an argument where you tried to suggest that Briere has been a better offensive player than Richards before? If you did, it was just as much of a fallacy then as it is now.
Quote:
- Is it worth typing the exact same argument every single time in a different variation?
Probably not. Should probably wait until there is anything backing up your claim other than your own perception of what is going on out there.
Quote:
- Is it worth pointing out again the lengths people will go to defend Downie and Hartnell while throwing Briere under the bus? Yes Downie, the same guy who just got suspended again for not being able to control himself and continues to get a free pass on this board.
Whose throwing Briere under the bus. He had the 2nd best offensive year of his career last year. He was great at putting the puck in the net. Richards was better.
We're not talking about the area where Briere can get thrown under the bus, his defense.
Quote:
- Is it worth arguing against somebody who recently tried to argue that Carle wasn't living up to his contract after 5 games in a Flyers unifor?
Who was just talking about the 5 games for the Flyers? He hasn't lived up to that contract since it went into effect. Not my fault your defense of him is entirely nebulous and a continuation in your efforts to defend to the hilt every move that Holmgren has made on the D.
4th in the league...Briere has played less than HALF of the games to this point. If Briere's absence was killing our PP, we'd be in the middle of the league, not one of the most dangerous PPs out there.
I mean, are you serious with this? Pittsburgh would trade PPs with us right now, and you're complaining about what they're doing out there?
And you think my critique of Carle is a joke.
Richards has been the better offensive player of the two and it isn't even close. He's been a better even strength player, and a dangerous point player on the PP. More than half of Briere's points come off of the PP--something he excels at--but that doesn't equate to him being a "better offensive player" than Richards.
As far as the secondary assist comment...you say this as if Briere doesn't pick up those points, too?
Is Briere more important? I'd agree with that...but our production on the PP has been more than fine without him on the PP. Elite in the league, in fact.
Well, Richards had more assists than Briere last year (in less games)...and is on pace to blow that number out of the water this year. So if you think Briere is "an elite playmaker," then you're going to have to concede that Richards is too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh
You're talking about a 10 game sample size here. Briere had 37 PP points last year and along with Kimmo and Knuble were the main catalysts for the PP.
I'm not saying that our PP is going to be 1st with Briere and 30th without him, but there will eventually be a downgrade.
The fact remains that you are creaming yourself over a 10 game sample size and declaring us to have an elite offensive without Briere.
All about who you play with. As I demonstrated in a previous post, in the 25-30 games last year when Briere played with competent offensive players, he was over a PPG pace and was a positive player. This is also the same guy who led the league in ES points in 06-07.
It's funny how so many people here are quick to rush and defend Downie for his treatment by Stevens, but then we see Briere stuck with Knuble for 50 games last year and it's Briere's fault, not Stevens'.
Richie is obviously benefiting from the talent around him, heck, you can't crucify him for that, he's just doing his job, but he's playing with one of the elite goalscorers in the league, obviously he's going to have pretty good numbers.
Rob Brown had 115 points in 89-90, while Brian Propp had Luc Robitaille had 98, but who's the better offensive player?
I enjoy how you use the straight stats argument when it suits because by your logic, Rob Brown is a better offensive player than Luc Robitaille and Joe Sakic.
EDIT: BTW if I were you and attempting to structure this argument, I would go for the fact that Briere needs to have good chemistry with his linemates unlike Richie who can play with anything, definitely a point in Richards' favor.
Flyhigh, you pretty much made the point I was going to make.....While Richards I think has elite passing skills and thinks the game like an elite player, he certainly does not compare to Briere in skill....The big difference between the two is that Briere needs certain types of players that complement him and he hasnt been given that opportunity at even strength the majority of his time here, hence why he matched his career high in goals, but his assists were down. You cant get assists if your linemates are not scoring. I am not going to look at the numbers from last year, but they were pretty close as far as the division between PP and even strength points...Give a full season of Gagne and Briere together and he puts up a PPG+
I started typing out a response to this. I really did.
Then I considered a couple things.
- Is it worth spending 20 minutes refighting an argument that was already had last year when I was proven right once the guy got a decent linemate?
- Is it worth typing the exact same argument every single time in a different variation?
- Is it worth pointing out again the lengths people will go to defend Downie and Hartnell while throwing Briere under the bus? Yes Downie, the same guy who just got suspended again for not being able to control himself and continues to get a free pass on this board.
- Is it worth arguing against somebody who recently tried to argue that Carle wasn't living up to his contract after 5 games in a Flyers unifor?
And the net answer, unsurprisingly, ended up being, NO.
I'm not sure about all your other debates but he certainly owned you in this one. in pretty much every aspect.
Flyhigh, you pretty much made the point I was going to make.....While Richards I think has elite passing skills and thinks the game like an elite player, he certainly does not compare to Briere in skill....The big difference between the two is that Briere needs certain types of players that complement him and he hasnt been given that opportunity at even strength the majority of his time here, hence why he matched his career high in goals, but his assists were down. You cant get assists if your linemates are not scoring. I am not going to look at the numbers from last year, but they were pretty close as far as the division between PP and even strength points...Give a full season of Gagne and Briere together and he puts up a PPG+
In a skills competition (aka, practice or All-Star games), Briere certainly could embarrass Richards. Unfortunately for Briere, the real thing requires more than just those skills, and Richards embarrasses him in all of those categories.
And arguing that Briere needs specific linemates in order to succeed offensively pretty much concedes the debate between the two.
Whether Briere can put up more points than Richards if you give Briere the better linemates of the two (basically the argument you're making here) is something I don't know. Players are going to get hurt. Lines are going to get shuffled. If your ability to play out there is so fragile that you can't get the job done with a variety of players, then that reflects poorly on you...not positively.
Flyhigh, you pretty much made the point I was going to make.....While Richards I think has elite passing skills and thinks the game like an elite player, he certainly does not compare to Briere in skill....The big difference between the two is that Briere needs certain types of players that complement him and he hasnt been given that opportunity at even strength the majority of his time here, hence why he matched his career high in goals, but his assists were down. You cant get assists if your linemates are not scoring. I am not going to look at the numbers from last year, but they were pretty close as far as the division between PP and even strength points...Give a full season of Gagne and Briere together and he puts up a PPG+
Thanks mike. I see Richards as optimally a 65-75 point player. Briere I see as the potential for 90. I mean, he put up 95 with Hecht and Pominville as his primary linemates, guys who are great players, but not all-stars. I still think you could see a Gagne-Richards-Briere line together and just absolutely wreck teams out there with Briere as a scorer/playmaker, Gagne as the main scorer, and Richie as the facilitator, playmaker, and defensive backbone.
Briere does have that weakness in that he needs guys who complement him. But when he gets those guys, he's an offensive force (05/06 and 06/07) in Buffalo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Clarke Fan Club
I'm not sure about all your other debates but he certainly owned you in this one. in pretty much every aspect.
You can't tell who wins these debates until the time period is finished. For example the baseball hitting vs. pitching debate, I said that the pitching was the strength of this team all year, not the hitting, and they proved it by putting up a 3.07 ERA in the postseason and winning the WS.
Of course, I also said this team was mailing it in and wouldn't make the playoffs which I was wrong on.
I don't think you can tell the winner Briere debate until at least the end of this season tbh. I mean just hypothetically, if Briere comes back and has an 85 point season while Richie levels off and goes for 65, then who wins the debate?
You can't tell who wins these debates until the time period is finished. For example the baseball hitting vs. pitching debate, I said that the pitching was the strength of this team all year, not the hitting, and they proved it by putting up a 3.07 ERA in the postseason and winning the WS.
Of course, I also said this team was mailing it in and wouldn't make the playoffs which I was wrong on.
I don't think you can tell the winner Briere debate until at least the end of this season tbh. I mean just hypothetically, if Briere comes back and has an 85 point season while Richie levels off and goes for 65, then who wins the debate?
That's an awesome gleaning of the debate to place your position in the best possible and dishonest light. You argued that the pitching was great (relief pitching was all year) while ignoring the fact that our starters were killing the team at the midpoint of the season. Adam Eaton got banished from whence to never return, Brett Myers was sent to the minors, and Kyle Kendrick was dropped from the rotation and replaced by a traded for player.
So, 60% of our starting staff was deemed problematic and in need of serious measures to be fixed before we ever got to the playoffs. You were right, the pitching was fantastic all year long.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but our starting lineup was the same all year...
That's an awesome gleaning of the debate to place your position in the best possible and dishonest light. You argued that the pitching was great (relief pitching was all year) while ignoring the fact that our starters were killing the team at the midpoint of the season. Adam Eaton got banished from whence to never return, Brett Myers was sent to the minors, and Kyle Kendrick was dropped from the rotation and replaced by a traded for player.
So, 60% of our starting staff was deemed problematic and in need of serious measures to be fixed before we ever got to the playoffs. You were right, the pitching was fantastic all year long.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but our starting lineup was the same all year...
Bitter much and twisting much? Most of the arguments IIRC were in mid July/August after Eaton blew up and Blanton came.
Anyways, the Phils won the World Series.
I just love typing that or saying that. It's honestly like any time I'm having a bad day or I lose track of a conversation, I just think about how the Phillies won the WS and I get this strange contented feeling.
Bitter much and twisting much? Most of the arguments IIRC were in mid July/August after Eaton blew up and Blanton came.
Not bitter at all, nor is that twisting the debate at all. Just pointing out the disingenuous nature of your statement. The debate was always around starting pitching, not pitching. And when you started in on your attack of the offense in July (at the latest) the reason the record was what it was...was because of the starters, not the hitting. You were also a big defender of Eaton at that.
Starting pitching certainly had a big role in what happened down the stretch and into the playoffs, but that's because they fixed the problem with the team throughout the first half of the season. Myers was sent to the minors to relearn how to pitch, and they shed two other weak links in Eaton and Kendrick by the time they got there.
Starting pitching was the problem with that team, and they went about fixing it.
BTW, if I were you and attempting to structure this argument--Briere is elite offensive player, and Richards is not--I wouldn't add caveats stating that Richards is so good that he can play with anyone on his wings and still produce, while Briere is utterly dependent on linemates to help him out.
He's got you there. You basically ended the argument with that statement.
