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11-21-2008, 10:34 AM
  #26
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This whole "system BASED on defense" is a myth.

The "system" is based on TRANSITION.

Name ONE team that won the Cup or contended that DIDN'T play a sound defensive game.

Offense starts with defense.

The offensive attack starts in anyone's defensive zone. That is how hockey is played.

The fact that Renney wants the team to pay attention to DETAILS defensively is NOT A BAD THING. That is what they are supposed to do. That is what ANY good two way player is supposed to do. That is what any good team is supposed to do.

We acquired defensemen who move the puck. And built a forward group based on hard work and sustained pressure. Offensive creativity should manifest from that hard work. Plain and simple our forwards lack the ability to finish their opportunities. Some of us knew it and said it before the season started. Some of us said the team would struggle to score goals. Some of us said before the season started that we needed to add a legit goal scorer to the top 6. The only difference between this year and last year is that the goals that DO come are from a different group of players every night, making the offense more "anonymous". Which is what a lot of us said would happen.

Don't blame Renney and the team for your own unrealistic expectations.


Last edited by SupersonicMonkey*: 11-21-2008 at 10:40 AM.
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11-21-2008, 10:38 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
This whole "system BASED on defense" is a myth.

The "system" is based on TRANSITION.

Name ONE team that won the Cup or contended that DIDN'T play a sound defensive game.

Offense starts with defense.

The offensive attack starts in anyone's defensive zone. That is how hockey is played.

The fact that Renney wants the team to pay attention to DETAILS defensively is NOT A BAD THING. That is what they are supposed to do. That is what ANY good two way player is supposed to do. That is what any good team is supposed to do.

We acquired defensemen who move the puck. And built a forward group based on hard work and sustained pressure. Offensive creativity should manifest from that hard work. Plain and simple our forwards lack the ability to finish their opportunities. Some of us knew it and said it before the season started. Some of us said the team would struggle to score goals. Some of us said before the season started that we needed to add a legit goal scorer to the top 6. The only difference between this year and last year is that the goals that DO come are from a different group of players every night, making the offense more "anonymous". Which is what a lot of us said would happen.

Don't blame Renney and the team for you own unrealistic expectations.

Good stuff.

We also acquired defensemen who make good first passes. And then its up to the forwards to move the puck. They miss Gomez a lot for that very reason.

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11-21-2008, 10:40 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
More cowbell perhaps?
I got the fever....and the only cure...is more COWBELL

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11-21-2008, 10:41 AM
  #29
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I got the fever....and the only cure...is more COWBELL
I put my pants on one leg at a time. Once my pants are on, I give up short-handed goals.

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11-21-2008, 10:43 AM
  #30
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Good stuff.

We also acquired defensemen who make good first passes. And then its up to the forwards to move the puck. They miss Gomez a lot for that very reason.
Absolutely.

Especially on the Power Play.

Gomez has the ability to transport the puck through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone without "dumping it" in.

I always hated the dump and chase style. What point is there of working hard in your own zone to acquire possession of the puck and then work it through the neutral zone, just to HAND the puck over the opposition.

I like that Gomez, Zherdev, and Dubinsky carry the puck into the zone and control it.

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11-21-2008, 11:26 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
More cowbell perhaps?
Worth a try...

They REALLY just need to explore the space...really explore the space




Last edited by I Am Chariot: 11-21-2008 at 11:34 AM.
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11-21-2008, 12:02 PM
  #32
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The only reason we're still in first place is because we've played more games than all of the other teams. Once they catch up we'll be in 5th or 6th if we're lucky.

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11-21-2008, 12:03 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
Worth a try...

They REALLY just need to explore the space...really explore the space


Say it baby!

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11-21-2008, 12:37 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
This whole "system BASED on defense" is a myth.

The "system" is based on TRANSITION.

Name ONE team that won the Cup or contended that DIDN'T play a sound defensive game.

Offense starts with defense.

The offensive attack starts in anyone's defensive zone. That is how hockey is played.

The fact that Renney wants the team to pay attention to DETAILS defensively is NOT A BAD THING. That is what they are supposed to do. That is what ANY good two way player is supposed to do. That is what any good team is supposed to do.

We acquired defensemen who move the puck. And built a forward group based on hard work and sustained pressure. Offensive creativity should manifest from that hard work. Plain and simple our forwards lack the ability to finish their opportunities. Some of us knew it and said it before the season started. Some of us said the team would struggle to score goals. Some of us said before the season started that we needed to add a legit goal scorer to the top 6. The only difference between this year and last year is that the goals that DO come are from a different group of players every night, making the offense more "anonymous". Which is what a lot of us said would happen.

Don't blame Renney and the team for your own unrealistic expectations.


Well I for one think they did a good job in the offseason. I think they were counting on Jagr to stay. Thats a big guy to try to replace. He's in the top 10 scoring all time in the NHL. Thats as elite as it gets. How do you replace Jagr? Even at 36. Well you don't.

Renny didn't name guys specifically when asked where the offense would come from, but he did say he felt the Rangers had sufficient "Dormant" offense. Or at least he hoped that Prucha, Dawes, and Mara would get the message and elevate that part of their game.

Mara looks like he got the message. He finally looks like the Paul Mara we were excited about getting from Boston in the first place. He's big, semi tough, hits and has a cannon.

Prucha and Dawes are obviously not stepping into the roles the Rangers had hoped for them. Both look like decent third line players struggeling to play over their heads when put in the top 6

I think we're getting good value from Gomez, Drury, Naslund, Zherdev, That crew could REALLY benefit from a bigger power forward with bona fide finish.

Voros looks to be really trying to fullfill a role. Hes not so skilled but he's fearless enough and smart enough to follow his instructions and go to the net.

Gomez/Drury + Naslund means 2/3 of that line is not physical. However you slice it that line needs a physical presence with the skill to hang with those playmaker (is not Colton Orr)

I know its not easy, but if Im Sather, Im trying to find a deal for a strong power forward with skills to make Gomez and or Drurys playmaking finish up with some goals.

What does he have to play with?

Assets perhaps coveted by other GMs: Sanguinetti, Anisimov, Del Zotto. Korpikoski, picks

Roster guys: Prucha, Dawes, Fritsche. Id be surprised if any of those guys cleared waivers but I also dont think their stock has much value right now.

So its PACKAGE DEAL for a top 6 finisher....

or

Dump salary and pitch to Sundin

or

Ride it out and hope for the best with what they got more or less satisfied with a 2nd round maybe ECF finish. Than see what you can get done on July 1st. Just remember the great assets the Rangers have homegrown are soon to be wanting their raise... and the cap could be tighter...

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11-21-2008, 12:40 PM
  #35
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sure we miss gomez, the problem is though, that with him in the lineup we couldn't score much more than without him

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11-21-2008, 12:44 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by jniklast View Post
sure we miss gomez, the problem is though, that with him in the lineup we couldn't score much more than without him

The problem is the same. Scotty can transport that puck better than anyone. Hes an great passer, perfect set up man, but who is he passing too?

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11-21-2008, 01:32 PM
  #37
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renney needs to let them play a more open style.....its as simple as that....he and sather went out and BUILT this team to play that style, a counter-attacking, speed-oriented, hard forechecking team......he doesnt allow for this team to use many of its offensive strengths because they are all worried about their defensive assignments.....which is a good thing.....im okay with a solid defensive system.....however when players like drury, naslund, gomez and redden are all brought in who excel at an up-tempo counter-attacking style of play and we have yet to see that more than 20 games into the season then i would venture to say thats the problem

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11-21-2008, 01:39 PM
  #38
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renney needs to let them play a more open style.....its as simple as that....he and sather went out and BUILT this team to play that style, a counter-attacking, speed-oriented, hard forechecking team......he doesnt allow for this team to use many of its offensive strengths because they are all worried about their defensive assignments.....which is a good thing.....im okay with a solid defensive system.....however when players like drury, naslund, gomez and redden are all brought in who excel at an up-tempo counter-attacking style of play and we have yet to see that more than 20 games into the season then i would venture to say thats the problem
I agree completely.

Then if we score we know it was the coaches fault for stomping out the offense. If we still can't score than we know it is the personnel, and Sather's fault. Hopefully it is just the coaches fault as that would be an easy fix either Renney adapts to a fast paced style, or is promptly fired for keeping a noose on this team. If it is a personnel problem than we could be screwed as w/ the contracts on this team, as it will not be an easy fix at all.

I think it might be a personel problem, but I'm just hoping that it's because Renney has no clue how to run an offense.

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11-21-2008, 01:53 PM
  #39
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Thats a nice thought and all, but the chances of acquiring any of them are slim to none.

This problem was evident back in July, but this is our team and I dont think much is going to change heading into the spring. In fact, behind the stellar play of Lundqvist, I think this team has already proven that it will make the playoffs...once you get there with an all-world goaltender and a smothering team defense, anything can happen.






Well that's the thing. The defense is going to have to really settle in if this team is going to go anywhere in the post season. To their credit the PK has been great and we always get defensive help from certain fowards but things are going to have to really change between now and spring.

As for the offense, we are having trouble because 4 of our top 6 wingers aren't goal scorers. Going to be a big difference in the post season without Shanny Jags Straks and Avery to pitch in and net a few.

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11-21-2008, 01:57 PM
  #40
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QUOTE=jniklast;16437129]sure we miss gomez, the problem is though, that with him in the lineup we couldn't score much more than without him[/QUOTE]





True. But players like Naslund Callahan and Zherdev should be able to feed off him being back in the line up and step it up...We may see him playing with Lauri now too since he's playing with confidence.

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11-21-2008, 01:58 PM
  #41
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True. But players like Naslund Callahan and Zherdev should be able to feed off him being back in the line up and step it up...We may see him playing with Lauri now too since he's playing with confidence.
That i would like to see.

Korps-gomez-Cally i think could succeed as a line.
Voros-Dub-Zher
Naslund-Drury-Fritsche
Sjo-Bets-Orr

would like to see this

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11-21-2008, 02:08 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Good stuff.

We also acquired defensemen who make good first passes. And then its up to the forwards to move the puck. They miss Gomez a lot for that very reason.




My biggest gripe with the fowards so far this season has been that even if a dman makes a good first pass there are guys who either bobble it or negate it by turning it over with an awful pass- usually right through the middle of the ice.

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11-21-2008, 02:15 PM
  #43
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That i would like to see.

Korps-gomez-Cally i think could succeed as a line.
Voros-Dub-Zher
Naslund-Drury-Fritsche
Sjo-Bets-Orr

would like to see this





Have a feeling Fritsche is going to sit once Gomer comes back. Dawes will likely be on the right of Drury.

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11-21-2008, 02:48 PM
  #44
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Dubi have slow down like the rest of the offense...

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11-21-2008, 03:51 PM
  #45
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Not much.
Your kidding yourself right now. We won without Gomez in a crappy game against the Bruins in which we should've never won. We beat the crappy Sens, and lost to a very beatable Vancouver team. In the Vancouver game, we never had a player that had the ability to take the puck end to end with just pure speed. We were missing that, very much. Also the fact, that he is a top ten playmaking center in the League also helps. Maybe you should get passed your biased, for whatever reason it is.

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11-21-2008, 04:15 PM
  #46
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I agree completely.

Then if we score we know it was the coaches fault for stomping out the offense. If we still can't score than we know it is the personnel, and Sather's fault. Hopefully it is just the coaches fault as that would be an easy fix either Renney adapts to a fast paced style, or is promptly fired for keeping a noose on this team. If it is a personnel problem than we could be screwed as w/ the contracts on this team, as it will not be an easy fix at all.

I think it might be a personel problem, but I'm just hoping that it's because Renney has no clue how to run an offense.
The coach is not "stomping out the offense".

This team is 3rd in the league in shots per game. They are getting TONS of scoring chances that they CAN"T finish. Because they don't have the ability to do so.

If this team played an "open" style, and payed no attention to detail, this team would be in last place.

When are you guys going to realize that it has NOTHING to do with the coach. It has to do with the personnel not having the scoring ability. You can't teach scoring ability.

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11-21-2008, 05:39 PM
  #47
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The system the team plays is working great. Can't complain about that. If the coaching staff "opened up the game" we would suck because we don't have the players to play that style. We'd score more, but lose more, so that's obviously not the solution.

I think the problem with the offense is personnel and that's it. We don't have a bad group of forwards but regardless of the system this group isn't going to score much. Gomez is our only forward who can come close to scoring a point per game, and the majority of that is assists. Drury, even in his best season, isn't a point per game player. Naslund certainly isn't anymore. And Zherdev is still a little too inconsistent to carry an offense.

So our top 4 forwards aren't going to score as much as other teams' top guys. And right now our 5th and 6th forwards by ice time are Dubinsky and Callahan. We all like Dubinsky and 14 points in 22 games isn't bad for him. Callahan on the other hand shouldn't be a top 6 forward right now.

So basically, I think the cure for the dormant offense is to acquire another top 6 forward and drop Callahan down to a lower line where his game will be more effective with fewer minutes. It's either that, or we hope 1 or 2 of Dubinsky/Callahan/Dawes start scoring a ton more, and I don't see that happening this season.

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11-21-2008, 06:11 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
The coach is not "stomping out the offense".

This team is 3rd in the league in shots per game. They are getting TONS of scoring chances that they CAN"T finish. Because they don't have the ability to do so.

If this team played an "open" style, and payed no attention to detail, this team would be in last place.

When are you guys going to realize that it has NOTHING to do with the coach. It has to do with the personnel not having the scoring ability. You can't teach scoring ability.
really? Tons? we must be watching different games. They had tons the first couple games when we were using a 2-1-2 but since tom switched back to the 1-2-2 we don't have that many.

unless by scoring chance you mean a a weak wrist shot from the half boards. b/c then yes we have a ton of those.

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11-21-2008, 06:33 PM
  #49
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In order to score more, we need to put some more pressure on the other teams. We are a very reactive team as opposed to proactive. We need to force the other teams into mistakes. Up the forecheck pressure. Just my thoughts.

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11-21-2008, 06:43 PM
  #50
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i think lines should be

naslund drury "z"
korp gomez callahan
voro dub fritsche
Sjo-Bets-Orr

each line has somebody that can carry the puck..
with "z" passing he needs somebody that can finish...

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