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Old
11-20-2008, 04:38 PM
  #1
gravytrain6t
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What about Slats?

I hear so much blame on Renney whenever the Rangers lose a game. I wonder if Renney is coaching the team he wants to coach. I mean of course. Personal wise. For that matter. Lets go back to the Jagr days. George Mcphee was delighted to get rid of Jagr and his big contract and start all over. Do you think the Caps GM did this for no reason. He had enough whining about how the team wasn't buying into how he wanted the Caps to play (which was , as he claimed using his skills and assets and not playing this defensive minded systems). How defensive minded it was I have no idea but all I know is Jagr left, and the Caps became one of, if not the most exciting teams to watch in hockey. I hear no complaining from any of their top star European players. Kind of reminds me of what Stan the Maven was saying about Jagr leaving NY! Addition by subtraction! Certainly was the truth from a Caps point of view. Then Renney has no choice in the matter but to deal with a head case from L.A. in which everyone in the hockey world knew was a complete menace everywhere he's been and will continue to be so. I do give him credit for helping us during that playoff run of two years ago.
I must admit I like both Gomez and Drury as hockey players. But Sather? Did we really need both. Especially with the amount of money and pay roll these guys are taking up. Is it 7 mil plus a year for each? Now he's got Rosival making 5 mil per year for 4 years!! Then Reddens contract on top of that. Only another 6.5 mil per year. That's over 25.5 million dollars of cap space on 4 players. The only player he's locked up long term who deserves it is our guy in net.

I can't even believe this is the same guy who built that Oiler dynasty!! Look at Del Vecchio and the Wings. Very rarely do they make a big splash signing. Hossa. That's it. All of their core talent comes from with in. These players (Zetterberg, Franzen, Holmstrom, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Kronwall...etc...etc..) They have a good coach in Babcock. He has a system which the players become familiar with well before they become Wings and they win)! By the time they even get to Babcock, it's a system they're used to, learned to be comfortable with and as time goes, players become more and more familiar and are a hard working 5 man unit. They love playing for Babcock in a well organized system and Babcock, whose with these guys for years, loves coaching them. It might have took some time for Detroit to develop a system with such chemistry but the pay off is pretty nice I would have to say.
That's a problem Renney, Babcock, or Scotty Bowman would run into here in NY. Sather knows he has the job as GM no matter how long he wants it. Dolan (who can probably care less about hockey) just wants to ensure that Sather have a competitive team so fans and big corporations will spend money on these ridiculously priced tickets which goes right into Mr. Dolans pocket. As long as the Rangers are at least competitive. Who cares about the long term future of how to build this franchise. The fans will be there. Slats just has to worry about the fishing report and if he has enough cigars!


Last edited by gravytrain6t: 11-20-2008 at 05:09 PM. Reason: I wanted Dolan to be a part of this thread title
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11-20-2008, 04:58 PM
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Renney is the one who said publicly that he was on board with the moves they made. These were players HE along with the rest of the coaching staff felt would help improve the team adapt to the style of play they wanted this team to play.

Sather made some bad moves when he first got here. There's no denying that. But make no mistake about it. Alotta the moves he (and for that matter Neil Smith) made during the late 90s were moves that were initiated or supported by James Dolan.

Sather is Sather. He may not be brilliant. He may not be Lou Lam or Ken Holland even. But don't doubt that he wants to win and that he wants one last championship before he retires/dies. This team has gone through major changed since before the lockout and again since the first year post lock out. Of course there are flaws. Signing Roszival to the contract they did after the way he plays the last 4+ months of last season was more then a questionable move. Targeting Redden over Campbell was also questionable. But there have been plenty of moves that looked questionable that paid off down the stretch for this team in the past and if they can learn to mesh a lil better and put together 60 minute games this team could be very good when all is said and done. Definitely not flawless..but definitely capable of making some noise.

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11-20-2008, 05:05 PM
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I blame Sather for not being on the same page as Renney. Sather was to play an attack up tempo style, Renney wants to play a grind it out defensive style.

Either Renney is at fault for not adapting to the personnel that Sather gives him, or Sather is at fault for not giving Renney the personnel to make him succesful. I happen to think this is a VERY strong team that is assembled, and as such, the fault lies with Renney, not Sather.

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11-20-2008, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Inferno272 View Post
I blame Sather for not being on the same page as Renney. Sather was to play an attack up tempo style, Renney wants to play a grind it out defensive style.

Either Renney is at fault for not adapting to the personnel that Sather gives him, or Sather is at fault for not giving Renney the personnel to make him succesful. I happen to think this is a VERY strong team that is assembled, and as such, the fault lies with Renney, not Sather.
I agree. I've been saying this for about a year now, Slats has been building this team to be a run and gun style team like the 06 Sabres were. We're deep up front but Renney isn't letting them be as creative as they can be.

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11-20-2008, 05:24 PM
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If the team was an utter failure, it would be all on Sather. This team doesn't play on a consistent basis. You never see a full 60 minutes of effort, or rather, you hardly see it. When this team wants to play, they can go toe to toe with anyone. Unfortunately, the 10 - 50 minutes a night they take off makes the job so difficult. Look at the Detriot game. Slept through the first 6 minutes and then proceeded to outplay the champs for 54 minutes with hard work and execution.

The team can compete. They can shut down anyone and play lights out defensively if they want to. They can score goals when they have to. They can outwork anyone. So the parts are there. It's up to the coaching staff to prepare this team, to make sure they can compete night in and night out, whistle to whistle.

I'm also not buying the theory that this team was built to be uptempo, speed, high energy; but not for Renney. I'm not saying we don't have those characteristics, but we were obviously built to play 2-1 games, take care of our end first, limit mistakes. Who are the skill guys that we acquired? Gomez, Drury, Naslund, Zherdev. New Jersey Devil, Buffalo Sabre, Vancouver Canuck, Columbus Blue Jacket. Defensive teams in the NHL. They know how to back check and take care of the puck. Sather got his speed and skill guys but made sure they would fit into his head coach's plans.

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11-20-2008, 05:25 PM
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The contracts Sather has handed out are a disgrace and may be the reason why this team will struggle in 2 to 3 yrs unless some can be moved. Superstar money being thrown at good not great players, add into it the NMC/NTC certain players have and this team may be handicapped for the forseeable future.

Terrible

Drury = $7.05m per for 5yrs + NTC
Gomez =$7.35m per for 7yrs + NMC
Redden = $6.5m per for 6yrs + NTC
Rozsival = $5m per for 4yrs

Not terrible but not great

Voros $1m per for 3yrs
Naslund $4m per for 2yrs + NTC
Rissmiller $1m per for 1yr

Sather should recieve credit for these

Lundqvist $6.75m per for 6yrs (re-signed)
Girardi $1.55m per for 2 yrs (re-signed)
Mara $1.95m per for 1yr (re-signed)

Basically look at it Sather just isnt too reliable when it comes to signing free agents, he throws crazy money at them rather than risk losing out which isnt too sensible in a salary cap, he seems to be able to strike good deals with players when it comes to re-signing as the ones i mentioned but i would also add Dawes and Sjostrom into it.

This is our team from here on and most likely our system even if a new GM was to come in and Sather stepped down then i really dont see what a new GM could do with so many overpaid players tied down for so many years.

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11-20-2008, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rangersfan30 View Post
The contracts Sather has handed out are a disgrace and may be the reason why this team will struggle in 2 to 3 yrs unless some can be moved. Superstar money being thrown at good not great players, add into it the NMC/NTC certain players have and this team may be handicapped for the forseeable future.

Terrible

Drury = $7.05m per for 5yrs + NTC
Gomez =$7.35m per for 7yrs + NMC
Redden = $6.5m per for 6yrs + NTC
Rozsival = $5m per for 4yrs

Not terrible but not great

Voros $1m per for 3yrs
Naslund $4m per for 2yrs + NTC
Rissmiller $1m per for 1yr

Sather should recieve credit for these

Lundqvist $6.75m per for 6yrs (re-signed)
Girardi $1.55m per for 2 yrs (re-signed)
Mara $1.95m per for 1yr (re-signed)

Basically look at it Sather just isnt too reliable when it comes to signing free agents, he throws crazy money at them rather than risk losing out which isnt too sensible in a salary cap, he seems to be able to strike good deals with players when it comes to re-signing as the ones i mentioned but i would also add Dawes and Sjostrom into it.

This is our team from here on and most likely our system even if a new GM was to come in and Sather stepped down then i really dont see what a new GM could do with so many overpaid players tied down for so many years.

Sather should recieve credit for the Voros deal. He has the potential to score 20 goals. At one million a year for the next two seasons that is a bargain.

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11-20-2008, 05:30 PM
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Who are the run and gun guys that we got? Where are these players that don't fit into Renney's system.

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11-20-2008, 05:43 PM
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Sather should recieve credit for the Voros deal. He has the potential to score 20 goals. At one million a year for the next two seasons that is a bargain.

To be honest i am not so sure

Voros before coming here had 55 games of NHL experience with 7 goals and 7 assists for 14 pts, did that warrant $1m for 3yrs? not so sure but he has been a pleasant surprise even if his play has dropped off a bit.

I said it in the Ottawa game GDT how Voros reminds me of Happy Gilmore because he cant stay on his feet, remember the scene when Happy falls down and grabs the puck.

Seriously though Voros isnt an issue its the high earners

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11-20-2008, 06:09 PM
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The contracts Sather has handed out are a disgrace and may be the reason why this team will struggle in 2 to 3 yrs unless some can be moved. Superstar money being thrown at good not great players, add into it the NMC/NTC certain players have and this team may be handicapped for the forseeable future.
Here's the deal. "Superstars" are not available via the free agency market on any regular basis. "Superstars" are also generally unavailable when you're picking where the Rangers have been picking since the lockout.

When you're in a position like the Rangers, with an excellent core of role players (with the exception of Lundqvist) you have the option of either a) buying top-tier UFAs that are available in the market to augment your great depth, or b) going with your farm system and second tier UFA.

The way I look at it, Gomez, Drury, and Redden didn't get "superstar" money, they got the market rate for top UFA talent.

If you want to criticize Sather for going with option A above and pushing to complete now rather than later that's fine. But anyone who has this magical idea of waiting for the UFA "superstars" to hit the market is dreaming. I remember way too many discussions about waiting to sign Thornton when he hits UFA, or waiting to sign Kovalchuk.

You can only buy what's available. If a Kovalchuk or Thornton becomes available I fully expect Sather to show interest and adjust the roster accordingly, but to keep cap space and holes in the roster not only in hopes of these "superstars" to hit UFA but also to sign with us is not a viable plan, imho.

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11-20-2008, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Here's the deal. "Superstars" are not available via the free agency market on any regular basis. "Superstars" are also generally unavailable when you're picking where the Rangers have been picking since the lockout.

When you're in a position like the Rangers, with an excellent core of role players (with the exception of Lundqvist) you have the option of either a) buying top-tier UFAs that are available in the market to augment your great depth, or b) going with your farm system and second tier UFA.

The way I look at it, Gomez, Drury, and Redden didn't get "superstar" money, they got the market rate for top UFA talent.

If you want to criticize Sather for going with option A above and pushing to complete now rather than later that's fine. But anyone who has this magical idea of waiting for the UFA "superstars" to hit the market is dreaming. I remember way too many discussions about waiting to sign Thornton when he hits UFA, or waiting to sign Kovalchuk.

You can only buy what's available. If a Kovalchuk or Thornton becomes available I fully expect Sather to show interest and adjust the roster accordingly, but to keep cap space and holes in the roster not only in hopes of these "superstars" to hit UFA but also to sign with us is not a viable plan, imho.
You my friend know the deal.

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11-20-2008, 06:29 PM
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Renney is the one who said publicly that he was on board with the moves they made. These were players HE along with the rest of the coaching staff felt would help improve the team adapt to the style of play they wanted this team to play.

Sather made some bad moves when he first got here. There's no denying that. But make no mistake about it. Alotta the moves he (and for that matter Neil Smith) made during the late 90s were moves that were initiated or supported by James Dolan.

Sather is Sather. He may not be brilliant. He may not be Lou Lam or Ken Holland even. But don't doubt that he wants to win and that he wants one last championship before he retires/dies. This team has gone through major changed since before the lockout and again since the first year post lock out. Of course there are flaws. Signing Roszival to the contract they did after the way he plays the last 4+ months of last season was more then a questionable move. Targeting Redden over Campbell was also questionable. But there have been plenty of moves that looked questionable that paid off down the stretch for this team in the past and if they can learn to mesh a lil better and put together 60 minute games this team could be very good when all is said and done. Definitely not flawless..but definitely capable of making some noise.
In all seriousness, what do you think Renney's gonna say? "No, I hate the moves...they suck and our General Manager should be ashamed of himself"..??

Sather has sort of been like a mad scientest during and since the lockout. Hes moved major pieces of the core in every season and seems to present Renney with a jig-saw puzzle to begin the year. Renney deserves a fair amount of credit for consistently putting a winning product on the ice year after year.

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11-20-2008, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Here's the deal. "Superstars" are not available via the free agency market on any regular basis. "Superstars" are also generally unavailable when you're picking where the Rangers have been picking since the lockout.

When you're in a position like the Rangers, with an excellent core of role players (with the exception of Lundqvist) you have the option of either a) buying top-tier UFAs that are available in the market to augment your great depth, or b) going with your farm system and second tier UFA.

The way I look at it, Gomez, Drury, and Redden didn't get "superstar" money, they got the market rate for top UFA talent.

If you want to criticize Sather for going with option A above and pushing to complete now rather than later that's fine. But anyone who has this magical idea of waiting for the UFA "superstars" to hit the market is dreaming. I remember way too many discussions about waiting to sign Thornton when he hits UFA, or waiting to sign Kovalchuk.

You can only buy what's available. If a Kovalchuk or Thornton becomes available I fully expect Sather to show interest and adjust the roster accordingly, but to keep cap space and holes in the roster not only in hopes of these "superstars" to hit UFA but also to sign with us is not a viable plan, imho.


I never said that superstars hit the free agent market, all i said was he paid superstar money to non superstars and it may cost us. I am not one of these guys who thinks that Prucha, Rozsival and a 1st will get you Kovalchuk but i am someone who think a move needs to be made to address our obvious lack of scoring.

How is Sather going to adjust the roster accordingly when every highly paid player on our roster barring Rozsival has a NTC/NMC? not forgetting Dubinsky and Zherdev to be re-signed this off-season.

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11-20-2008, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
In all seriousness, what do you think Renney's gonna say? "No, I hate the moves...they suck and our General Manager should be ashamed of himself"..??

Sather has sort of been like a mad scientest during and since the lockout. Hes moved major pieces of the core in every season and seems to present Renney with a jig-saw puzzle to begin the year. Renney deserves a fair amount of credit for consistently putting a winning product on the ice year after year.
Really? I'm not sure I agree with you. I think the team has had some great roster stability since the lockout considering the flux that is inherent in a cap league. Straka and Jagr retired from the NHL and Malik ran his course here; I'm trying to think who Sather subtracted from the core besides those 3 guys last season (not every year like your post suggests).

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11-20-2008, 11:08 PM
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Really? I'm not sure I agree with you. I think the team has had some great roster stability since the lockout considering the flux that is inherent in a cap league. Straka and Jagr retired from the NHL and Malik ran his course here; I'm trying to think who Sather subtracted from the core besides those 3 guys last season (not every year like your post suggests).
shanahan, avery, tyutin... I think those guys were pretty important.

Straka jagr shanny and avery made up 2/3 of our first 2 lines. You dont think thats a massive turn over in our scoring lines?

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11-20-2008, 11:42 PM
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shanahan, avery, tyutin... I think those guys were pretty important.

Straka jagr shanny and avery made up 2/3 of our first 2 lines. You dont think thats a massive turn over in our scoring lines?
Yea and that's a big reason I feel Renney has been getting a lot of unnecessary negative criticism. All of those quality players are gone now at the same time, he has a bunch of young kids who have potential to be everyday players but can't figure out yet exactly who and what line combinations are the best, a new captain and new people to pick up the scoring load. He's just getting past the aquaintence phase with Voros, Kalinen, Naslund and Redden. Not to mention Zherdev, who looks like he can get into those moods like Jagr has. And not for nothin, we don't exactly have the worst record in the league so far either.

This is not an attack on you and your comments personally. I pretty much started this thread because I wanted to point out how I felt Sather is just as, if not more responsible for what goes on with the Rangers (good or bad) than Renney and his staff.

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11-20-2008, 11:58 PM
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I blame Sather for not being on the same page as Renney. Sather was to play an attack up tempo style, Renney wants to play a grind it out defensive style.

Either Renney is at fault for not adapting to the personnel that Sather gives him, or Sather is at fault for not giving Renney the personnel to make him succesful. I happen to think this is a VERY strong team that is assembled, and as such, the fault lies with Renney, not Sather.

I can't immagine a coach declaring to the media that he does not like the job the general manager did, so of course Renney is going to see he's on board with it.

We have a team that has some weaknesses, and when they are playing well they can cover them up. When they are not playing well those weaknesses make us look like an AHL team.

The fact that we do a good job covering them up in my mind is because of Lundqvist and the style Renney has them playing.

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11-21-2008, 07:17 AM
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shanahan, avery, tyutin... I think those guys were pretty important.

Straka jagr shanny and avery made up 2/3 of our first 2 lines. You dont think thats a massive turn over in our scoring lines?
Big turnover this year, very true, but this was the first year we had that kind of turnover.

But can we blame slats for any of those moves? I guess we can say that he could have kept Avery, but according to this thread over the summer I think a large majority was happy he left. Jagr wanted too many years for me to blame Sather, a responsible decision in my mind. Shanny, well anyone who's watched the Rangers the last two years knows what Shanny has to offer over an entire season. Straka was following Jagr. Tyutin was the odd man out and was used to replace some of that scoring we lost.

Sather can't keep guys around for the sake of preventing large roster turnover. So while I can't deny the large turnover this year, can any one blame Sather for those circumstances, or maybe I can put it this way: Would another GM in his position have been able to do things differently from Sather?

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11-21-2008, 09:25 AM
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When you have a goaltender as good as Henrik Lundqvist, the kind of player a franchise is lucky enough to get only so often. When you have a dominant player at the game's most important position, you need to take advantage. You need to take advantage by surrounding that player with the right pieces to win, especially when your franchise is most known for almost never winning.

Believe it or not, as fun as it is year in and year out to follow this team, I wouldn't mind seeing them actually win a Cup. I'd rather not wait 54 years for them to win again. Isn't that the goal here?

Now, sorry, but I don't think being first in the standings in November means anything when it comes to the playoffs. I don't think this team is going to go any farther than it did last season in the playoffs, and I'm not complaining about THAT, per se. What gets to me is I don't see how the team can possibly be improved in the next few years, how the team's GLARING offensive weaknesses can be addressed when the cap is so poorly managed.

From the looks of it, this team is going to waste the best years of Lundqvist's career being a pretender instead of a contender simply because they just won't be able to afford to get the pieces they need.

I understand the argument some of you made about signing Drury and Gomez and Redden, about how it makes more sense to do that then have holes and wait for better guys to become available. Except, what if those signings simply lock you into being a second round-and-out team? Are we supposed to be happy and settle for that? I, for one, am not. I'm not going to stop cheering for the team or whatever, but damn, after the whole 54 years thing, and then the pathetic decade that we're only a few years removed from, how about trying to win?

I think Slats got greedy, and he got greedy at the worst possible time. Have there ever been three top free agents in a summer as overrated as Drury, Gomez and Briere were a couple of summers ago? There's a difference between paying top UFA money to top UFA talent and paying top UFA money to less than top UFA talent, which is what Slats did for Drury, Gomez and Redden.

Doesn't make much sense, IMO.

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11-21-2008, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Here's the deal. "Superstars" are not available via the free agency market on any regular basis. "Superstars" are also generally unavailable when you're picking where the Rangers have been picking since the lockout.

When you're in a position like the Rangers, with an excellent core of role players (with the exception of Lundqvist) you have the option of either a) buying top-tier UFAs that are available in the market to augment your great depth, or b) going with your farm system and second tier UFA.

The way I look at it, Gomez, Drury, and Redden didn't get "superstar" money, they got the market rate for top UFA talent.

If you want to criticize Sather for going with option A above and pushing to complete now rather than later that's fine. But anyone who has this magical idea of waiting for the UFA "superstars" to hit the market is dreaming. I remember way too many discussions about waiting to sign Thornton when he hits UFA, or waiting to sign Kovalchuk.

You can only buy what's available. If a Kovalchuk or Thornton becomes available I fully expect Sather to show interest and adjust the roster accordingly, but to keep cap space and holes in the roster not only in hopes of these "superstars" to hit UFA but also to sign with us is not a viable plan, imho.

Tremendous post.

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11-21-2008, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Here's the deal. "Superstars" are not available via the free agency market on any regular basis. "Superstars" are also generally unavailable when you're picking where the Rangers have been picking since the lockout.

When you're in a position like the Rangers, with an excellent core of role players (with the exception of Lundqvist) you have the option of either a) buying top-tier UFAs that are available in the market to augment your great depth, or b) going with your farm system and second tier UFA.

The way I look at it, Gomez, Drury, and Redden didn't get "superstar" money, they got the market rate for top UFA talent.

If you want to criticize Sather for going with option A above and pushing to complete now rather than later that's fine. But anyone who has this magical idea of waiting for the UFA "superstars" to hit the market is dreaming. I remember way too many discussions about waiting to sign Thornton when he hits UFA, or waiting to sign Kovalchuk.

You can only buy what's available. If a Kovalchuk or Thornton becomes available I fully expect Sather to show interest and adjust the roster accordingly, but to keep cap space and holes in the roster not only in hopes of these "superstars" to hit UFA but also to sign with us is not a viable plan, imho.
Wait.. did anyone else see that? That looked like.. no way.. common sense?? Someone get the camera!

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11-21-2008, 09:32 AM
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Tremendous post.
Don't you mean:

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11-21-2008, 09:33 AM
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Doesn't make much sense, IMO.
Funny, the answer is in azrok's post, just read that and you'll know it made alot of sense.

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11-21-2008, 09:34 AM
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Now, sorry, but I don't think being first in the standings in November means anything when it comes to the playoffs. I don't think this team is going to go any farther than it did last season in the playoffs, and I'm not complaining about THAT, per se. What gets to me is I don't see how the team can possibly be improved in the next few years, how the team's GLARING offensive weaknesses can be addressed when the cap is so poorly managed.
I guess Dubinsky, Dawes, Callahan and Voros aren't going to get any better than they are now.

You don't seem to have any faith in the Rangers young players but then blast the GM for getting better players via FA. Contradictory, no?

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11-21-2008, 09:38 AM
  #25
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Don't you mean:

/thread

Why I oughta...

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