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Postulate why the Rangers take the 1st period off?

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Old
12-05-2008, 12:04 PM
  #51
FLYLine24
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Said it once, said it a million times..if Lundqvist or Jagr arent dominating, the team stinks. Its that simple. Renney cannot adjust.

Though I do blame bad starts on the leaders as well. Drury anyone? I barely even notice him in the 1st period of any game.

Gomez as a -4 yesterday and giving out crosschecks to the face of his opponents doesnt really say much either.


The two guys were suppose to "take over the team" since Jagr left have really done a poor job.

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12-05-2008, 12:10 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by rangersfan30 View Post
But thats my point he hasnt shown either the points or the leadership, the Drury that was the catalyst for our comeback in the victoria cup is the one we all want to see but he has not been a shadow of the player he was in that game.
Well if you're citing a point where he was a Ranger and has shown that he can in fact be that player, how do you lead off by saying he hasn't shown those qualities? It's pretty clear that he can be the guy we paid him to be, but it's a matter of finding a spot in the line-up where he can demonstrate the player he can be on a consistent basis. Unfortunately, I have no idea where that spot is, but I have to think it's not on Gomez's wing, and it's not on the 3rd line between Voros and Dawes.

If I was Renney (and I'm glad I'm not, and I'm certain after you read what comes next, many of you will be glad too), I would try these lines out:

Naslund - Drury - Zherdev
Prucha - Gomez - Dubinsky
Korpikoski - Fritsche - Callahan
Sjo - Betts - Orr

Something inside of me says that Dubinsky would be a very good power-forward. I'm not saying leave him there, but I think it might be worth a look... *Backs out of the room slowly*

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I know he wouldnt say that but if the excuse can be used for Jordan Staal i am sure it can be used for Dubi. I dont agree that a 2nd yr pro can be held AS accountable as someone with Drury's experience and track record of winning wherever he goes but i dont think he is absolved from blame altogether.
Well Jordan Staal is well beyond Dubinsky in terms of raw talent, so I think the excuse can be applied to him when people say; "Oh, he's clearly better than that." Dubinsky is kind of an anomaly, we don't really know just how good he can be, but if he wants to be a player he has to be consistent, just like anyone else.

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Old
12-05-2008, 12:14 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Said it once, said it a million times..if Lundqvist or Jagr arent dominating, the team stinks. Its that simple. Renney cannot adjust.

Though I do blame bad starts on the leaders as well. Drury anyone? I barely even notice him in the 1st period of any game.

Gomez as a -4 yesterday and giving out crosschecks to the face of his opponents doesnt really say much either.


The two guys were suppose to "take over the team" since Jagr left have really done a poor job.
We have a winning record, how is that a poor job ?

Its unsatisfactory to the umpteenth degree to our fans, but poor?

Again, your username is FLY line, talk about overrated and poor jobs, you forget your younger years rooting for that crap team and standing up for them, now we have a winner and you just lay into them every chance you get. Funny stuff me man.

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Old
12-05-2008, 12:19 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Well if you're citing a point where he was a Ranger and has shown that he can in fact be that player, how do you lead off by saying he hasn't shown those qualities? It's pretty clear that he can be the guy we paid him to be, but it's a matter of finding a spot in the line-up where he can demonstrate the player he can be on a consistent basis. Unfortunately, I have no idea where that spot is, but I have to think it's not on Gomez's wing, and it's not on the 3rd line between Voros and Dawes.

If I was Renney (and I'm glad I'm not, and I'm certain after you read what comes next, many of you will be glad too), I would try these lines out:

Naslund - Drury - Zherdev
Prucha - Gomez - Dubinsky
Korpikoski - Fritsche - Callahan
Sjo - Betts - Orr

Something inside of me says that Dubinsky would be a very good power-forward. I'm not saying leave him there, but I think it might be worth a look... *Backs out of the room slowly*



Well Jordan Staal is well beyond Dubinsky in terms of raw talent, so I think the excuse can be applied to him when people say; "Oh, he's clearly better than that." Dubinsky is kind of an anomaly, we don't really know just how good he can be, but if he wants to be a player he has to be consistent, just like anyone else.

Sorry i should have said i have yet to see that player and influence in the regular season.

I dont know whether playing Dubi on the wing would be an option or not but at this point it surely couldnt hurt to try, i think its the only thing Renney hasnt one while mixing lines up

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Old
12-05-2008, 12:32 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
We have a winning record, how is that a poor job ?

Its unsatisfactory to the umpteenth degree to our fans, but poor?

Again, your username is FLY line, talk about overrated and poor jobs, you forget your younger years rooting for that crap team and standing up for them, now we have a winner and you just lay into them every chance you get. Funny stuff me man.

Yes..just look at points. Completely ignore everything else. Sigh. Its useless with some people.

I guess come playoff time you'll be in for a rude awakening.

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Old
12-05-2008, 12:37 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Well isn't that what you ultimately want? I mean, if the guy can make your team look better than it is, why wouldn't you want him around? Unless you'd rather stink and try for a higher draft pick while hoping a guy like Brayden Schenn falls to you at #10ish.
Mainly because I don't think we are a mediocre or bad team. I think we are a good team. I might have miswordered, but I think you missed my point there. I think that Renney has stopped being effective for our team.

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Well there has to be a line drawn. Does this team need a 'father figure'? Do they need a figure that will help them deal with their mental problems, or do they need the type who will say "You'll never learn if you don't figure it out for yourself?" I think Renney walks a thin line between being a coach and being one of the guys, so it's a tough call.
I don't think he walks a thin line at all. In fact, I think he is completely a players coach rather than anything else. The consummate players coach. You'll never hear a bad word from the Rangers out of the way he treats them. I don't think we NEED a players coach for this team.

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I certainly agree, but I don't think that's where we're at right now. I don't think Renney's message is falling on deaf ears, but rather it's being misinterpreted. I think "Stop letting Hank get peppered every night" could potentially be "You have to play tighter defense."
Then he need to change the way he's trying to get his message across. That falls on the coach. If he thinks it's being misinterpreted, change the way you say it. The message clearly has been the same since game 1. It's clearly either not working at all (against moderate to strong teams) or barely working (against the weaker teams).

The players have really been playing the same outside of a select few games where they were playing a completely different game of hockey (a fast, 2-1-2 forechecking team) than they are 90% of the time (a prevent defense team). And the team that we see 10% of the time is a much more effective team.

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I'm of the mindset that this team has trouble playing it both ways.
Agreed. To an extent. We've seen them play the fast paced, offensive game against the Devils and in the first few games where we really showed a dominant forecheck. We actually had players going into the corners and it worked quite well.

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They're too desperate to generate a turn-over that they will blow assignments to double-team a player in the corner.
The "system" teaching, pretty much.

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Or they're so determined to generate a better fore-check that defensemen will pinch and get caught, or try to make a better play rather than just dump the puck back in deep.
That's happened a few times, but the few games that we played that hockey all the way through, it worked very well for our team. Frankly, this prevent style team has failed. We need to change gears and try what's worked.

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A table flip certainly couldn't hurt at this point, but we don't know that it hasn't happened already.
With all the beat writers, you'd of heard of it by now.

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I think a roster shake-up will do much more to the team dynamic than you might think. All of these guys are getting along well and shipping off a buddy can have a serious impact on someone. Sometimes players need to be reminded that this is a business, and that business is winning.
It is possible, but what do you propose the roster shake-up is?

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Well if that's the case then the team just doesn't want to win and we have a much bigger problem on our hands. If the players just don't want to play and don't want to win, then I don't think any coach will be able to remedy the situation.
I don't think it's a case of not wanting to win. I think it's a case of not meshing with Renney's system and Renney not trying new things. This monotonous Rangers team is assuredly going through the motions because, right now, they have nothing else to go by.

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That problem has to fall at Sather's feet and he needs to bring in a player who wants to win. Say Renney has blown-up in the locker room on a few occasions, then what? Will Tortorella blowing up at them make a difference? Maybe but maybe not.
We have Chris Drury. Scott Gomez. Etc. The players who want to win are there. But it's completely possible that they simply aren't as effective players in this tight wad system, correct? Gomez did well in New Jersey with a trapping team. But his line was not used as a trapping line in the least. His line was having constant forecheck. As a result, Gionta scored 40 goals because of it. In this case, Gomez's line is constantly going in as a 1-2-2, which is just showing itself to be completely ineffective.

Frankly, I think the problem does rest with Sather, but for a different reason. He put together a different team than Renney could use because the style of play meant for the players we have assembled is clearly out of Renney's comfort zone.

A guy like Naslund signed here because he was told the Rangers were going to be an offensive, forechecking, 2-1-2 team and he gets brought into what we see now: A prevent defense, 1-2-2 (and 1-1-3 at times) team.

Clearly there is a divide between what Sather wants and how Renney wants to play.

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I think we're on the same page that we would like to see more emotion out of Renney while he's on the bench, but I can't imagine that he hasn't flipped out while they're in the locker room. Especially after last night.
I really think we'd of heard if he truly flipped out. Yes, he probably called out a few guys and such, but the man really needs to start breaking things at this point to get through to his guys.

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Old
12-05-2008, 01:02 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Yes..just look at points. Completely ignore everything else. Sigh. Its useless with some people.

I guess come playoff time you'll be in for a rude awakening.
Grow up already fly.

NO, i'm not ignoring everything else, just pionting out that despite our shortcomings, we have an insane record. We are flawed, but compared to your faves the FLY line, we have a winning team. This is a work in progress, not the be all end all, stop being so lame and predicting April results in early December.

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12-05-2008, 01:09 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Grow up already fly.

NO, i'm not ignoring everything else, just pionting out that despite our shortcomings, we have an insane record. We are flawed, but compared to your faves the FLY line, we have a winning team. This is a work in progress, not the be all end all, stop being so lame and predicting April results in early December.
The fact that we are a defensive team that can't play defense doesn't worry you? How about the complete lack of consistant scoring from anyone other than Zherdev and Naslund? Check out the Sens of last year man you would be interested to see greats starts does not a season make. This team is small and soft and is forced to the perimiter almost all the time, which is why the powerplay sucks. You like our record so much? Send Hank a Christmas card and thank him for it, give a PS to Tom Renney as well with a lump of coal for Sather.

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12-05-2008, 01:14 PM
  #59
FLYLine24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Grow up already fly.

NO, i'm not ignoring everything else, just pionting out that despite our shortcomings, we have an insane record. We are flawed, but compared to your faves the FLY line, we have a winning team. This is a work in progress, not the be all end all, stop being so lame and predicting April results in early December.
You are the last person on this board that should be telling that to anyone. You cant end a post without degrading someone, somehow.

The proof is once again, in the quoted post.

God forbid someone doesnt have the same opinion as you.....they should be prepared to be called some sort of name, or have some sort of silly smiley directed toward them.

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12-05-2008, 01:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Jonathan. View Post
Mainly because I don't think we are a mediocre or bad team. I think we are a good team. I might have miswordered, but I think you missed my point there. I think that Renney has stopped being effective for our team.
Well I think we're a mediocre team that was exceeding expectations, but I do think I missed your point there.


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I don't think he walks a thin line at all. In fact, I think he is completely a players coach rather than anything else. The consummate players coach. You'll never hear a bad word from the Rangers out of the way he treats them. I don't think we NEED a players coach for this team.
Well in my mind that's what a 'players coach' is. I just didn't want to use that term exactly.

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Then he need to change the way he's trying to get his message across. That falls on the coach. If he thinks it's being misinterpreted, change the way you say it. The message clearly has been the same since game 1. It's clearly either not working at all (against moderate to strong teams) or barely working (against the weaker teams).
I don't think the message has remained the same throughout the season, but I do think he needs to find something that all players can get on board with. I've seen several spurts where we've completely dominated, but for some reason the players can't find that mojo for an entire game. I don't think that can be blamed on Renney, obviously they understand what he's teaching them, otherwise they'd play the same way for 60 minutes a game and not make any changes. I will concede that the players look like they're itching to be more creative with the puck.

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The players have really been playing the same outside of a select few games where they were playing a completely different game of hockey (a fast, 2-1-2 forechecking team) than they are 90% of the time (a prevent defense team). And the team that we see 10% of the time is a much more effective team.
I don't see it changing from game to game, but more from shift to shift. It's just kind of difficult to assume that Renney would completely ignore what was working and go back to something else that wasn't. I don't think the players decided amongst themselves to play a 2-1-2 and succeed, only to have Renney demand they go back to the other system. I just don't think he's that stubborn.. or even that dumb.


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Agreed. To an extent. We've seen them play the fast paced, offensive game against the Devils and in the first few games where we really showed a dominant forecheck. We actually had players going into the corners and it worked quite well.
It did, and I think that's the team that Renney ultimately wants us to be.

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The "system" teaching, pretty much.
Eh, if Renney is teaching a defense-first system, I don't think blowing assignments would be part of that. I will say that either way Renney needs to do a better job of putting a stop to it.


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That's happened a few times, but the few games that we played that hockey all the way through, it worked very well for our team. Frankly, this prevent style team has failed. We need to change gears and try what's worked.
Again, I just can't get behind the idea that he isn't trying what worked, but rather it's the players not being able to implement it consistently enough.

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With all the beat writers, you'd of heard of it by now.
Maybe, but you can't really be sure.


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It is possible, but what do you propose the roster shake-up is?
No idea, but I have to imagine that there are enough teams around the league who are struggling (Atlanta, Dallas, Edmonton, etc) that a small personnel change could be worked out.


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I don't think it's a case of not wanting to win. I think it's a case of not meshing with Renney's system and Renney not trying new things. This monotonous Rangers team is assuredly going through the motions because, right now, they have nothing else to go by.
Again, you need to concede that the players aren't developing their own system to win. I still think those flashes of brilliance we see are the benefits of Renney's system and not the players taking it upon themselves to break out of his system.

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We have Chris Drury. Scott Gomez. Etc. The players who want to win are there. But it's completely possible that they simply aren't as effective players in this tight wad system, correct? Gomez did well in New Jersey with a trapping team. But his line was not used as a trapping line in the least. His line was having constant forecheck. As a result, Gionta scored 40 goals because of it. In this case, Gomez's line is constantly going in as a 1-2-2, which is just showing itself to be completely ineffective.
Still, I don't think the system is a bad one, it's just being put in action poorly by the team on the whole. I also think Gomez needs different players on his line. Zherdev is always looking to pass, and it doesn't seem like Naslund has the foot-speed to keep up with him right now. Callahan doesn't really have the finishing ability or the shot in general to shoot off the rush and Dawes can't get it together. That leaves Prucha and Korpikoski with the speed, but I don't see that line being put to use any-time soon.

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Frankly, I think the problem does rest with Sather, but for a different reason. He put together a different team than Renney could use because the style of play meant for the players we have assembled is clearly out of Renney's comfort zone.
I don't think it's out of Renney's comfort zone, but I think there is a problem with the way this organization is run. Even when this team is rebuilding, we're still active in the UFA market as opposed to waiting to make the proper plays. We could have put together a bare-bones team and let guys like Naslund, Rozsival and Redden go while letting our youth take over, but we'd be at the bottom of the league and fishing for a high-draft pick. The flip side to that is you acquire a young talent in the draft, can resign your valuable players like Dubinsky, Staal, etc, and then probably have enough left over for a Zetterberg, Hossa, Kovalchuk, etc. Unfortunately, with the way Sather has gone about things I think we'll be stuck in mediocrity for a while.

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A guy like Naslund signed here because he was told the Rangers were going to be an offensive, forechecking, 2-1-2 team and he gets brought into what we see now: A prevent defense, 1-2-2 (and 1-1-3 at times) team.
I think he wanted to sign here because we paid him to, and he wanted to play for an established organization like ours.

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Clearly there is a divide between what Sather wants and how Renney wants to play.
I just don't think that's true. We have some players who are great for the system Renney is trying to use, but we also have quite a few guys that aren't a fit. If we're going to be a hard fore-checking, puck possession type team (which is what I think Renney is going for), we need a very delicate balance of size, strength, speed and puck control. Aside from Zherdev, I can't name one player on this team that has that. Gomez is small, Drury isn't a great puck-handler, Dubinsky turns the puck over quite a bit, Callahan is too small, Fritsche isn't an offensive guy either, etc, etc.

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I really think we'd of heard if he truly flipped out. Yes, he probably called out a few guys and such, but the man really needs to start breaking things at this point to get through to his guys.
Possibly, but I think it's coming if it hasn't already happened.

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12-05-2008, 01:25 PM
  #61
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Its pretty funny, because we sit back to play defense first but that ends up giving the opposition even more chances because we can't stop them in the neutral zone and end up chasing the puck around in our end instead of going at them with a forecheck and controlling the play in their end. So basically we need to play in their end so we dont give up too many chances and so we can get chances for oursleves.

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12-05-2008, 01:30 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
You are the last person on this board that should be telling that to anyone. You cant end a post without degrading someone, somehow.

The proof is once again, in the quoted post.

God forbid someone doesnt have the same opinion as you.....they should be prepared to be called some sort of name, or have some sort of silly smiley directed toward them.
I don't hold back at times, you're definitely right about that

You made my post out to be all about points, thats how you can clearly see why you still just dont get it.

You've been on here for a long time, unlike alot of the little sproutlings that have popped up on here in recent time. But you still dont listen to some of the more knowledgable posters who have been here for a long time who know what they're talking about. I'm not including myself in there

Bottom line, this is not your Xbox, where you push a button and expect something to happen exactly how it should - just cause Wade Redden is highly paid, doesnt mean he has to outscore everyone making less money than him. Just cause we have a high payroll, doesn't mean we should expect a parade in June. Thats the kind of awfulness we get around here.

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12-05-2008, 01:38 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I don't hold back at times, you're definitely right about that

You made my post out to be all about points, thats how you can clearly see why you still just dont get it.

You've been on here for a long time, unlike alot of the little sproutlings that have popped up on here in recent time. But you still dont listen to some of the more knowledgable posters who have been here for a long time who know what they're talking about. I'm not including myself in there

Bottom line, this is not your Xbox, where you push a button and expect something to happen exactly how it should - just cause Wade Redden is highly paid, doesnt mean he has to outscore everyone making less money than him. Just cause we have a high payroll, doesn't mean we should expect a parade in June. Thats the kind of awfulness we get around here.
To be fair, some of the long time knowledgeable posters do share the same points as I do.

Im not expecting a parade in June. I expect the team to at least live up to its potential. Did we not have enough underachieving in the early 2000s?

The team is playing average right now, but any one of us can clearly see the team can be much better (even a full 60 minute game would do wonders for the team). Its nice that we are at the top, but look at the teams we've played, look at the game in hand some teams have on us (some have 6 games)...

Can you honestly say if the playoffs started today, we would go far? I know you are more of an optimist and im more of a pessimist, but thats how it is. Id rather see results and our team playing 100% before assuming things will change for the better.

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12-05-2008, 01:46 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I'm not including myself in there
I am. Plus you're right in this case. However, we are getting good record, not because we so great, but because of new parity in NHL. Fleury-Lindros-York would immensely improve this team, would they not? If so we not so much better as our record say.

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12-05-2008, 01:49 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
To be fair, some of the long time knowledgeable posters do share the same points as I do.

Im not expecting a parade in June. I expect the team to at least live up to its potential. Did we not have enough underachieving in the early 2000s?

The team is playing average right now, but any one of us can clearly see the team can be much better (even a full 60 minute game would do wonders for the team). Its nice that we are at the top, but look at the teams we've played, look at the game in hand some teams have on us (some have 6 games)...

Can you honestly say if the playoffs started today, we would go far? I know you are more of an optimist and im more of a pessimist, but thats how it is. Id rather see results and our team playing 100% before assuming things will change for the better.

You romanticize those early 2000's teams too much if you think they were ever going anywhere. Lindros, Nedved, etc - they were garbage teams, led by garbage coaches that never really made any strides, much less play full 60 minute games.

Even with the games in hand, its a miracle we have this many wins with the way we've struggled. I dont think anyone with a right mind thinks this team doesnt have its flaws, we just have different views on what we need to get to the point where we do play a full 60 minutes.

Who are the better teams than us? Detroit, okay lost a one goal game to them, fair enough. Eastern teams? Philly, Boston, Montreal, Pittsburgh - 4-2 record against them, not as bad as everyone makes it seem right? We should be very happy with these results, and that doesnt mean in anyway that we should be blind to the problems that exist, thats where you and the rest are wrong when you label the Renney supporters as naive.

Like Singn said before, this is a work in progress, if the tougher schedule is ahead, GREAT, the team should be getting better as the season goes along so I look forward to it. And dont forget, Sather has tinkered with the lineup the last 3 years by making a deal, we still have to wait and see what this team will be like in April before we even discuss our hopes then. Right now, we have alot to be thankful for, lets see where it goes without obliterating everything.

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12-05-2008, 01:51 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by 94now View Post
I am. Plus you're right in this case. However, we are getting good record, not because we so great, but because of new parity in NHL. Fleury-Lindros-York would immensely improve this team, would they not? If so we not so much better as our record say.
Thanks 94. Yeah, in their prime i'd say they would, but again, its an Xbox discussion at this point

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12-05-2008, 01:53 PM
  #67
NYR Viper
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they arent ready to play and they think they dont have to be because they have been getting away with it.....one of the best things that could happen to this team right now is to lose 3-4 in a row to bring them back down to earth

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12-05-2008, 01:59 PM
  #68
Bluenote13
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
they arent ready to play and they think they dont have to be because they have been getting away with it.....one of the best things that could happen to this team right now is to lose 3-4 in a row to bring them back down to earth
Yet in every interview they say the opposite about their play - we still need to get better cause Hank can't bail us out every game.

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12-06-2008, 12:29 AM
  #69
z1co80
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
I don't hold back at times, you're definitely right about that

You made my post out to be all about points, thats how you can clearly see why you still just dont get it.

You've been on here for a long time, unlike alot of the little sproutlings that have popped up on here in recent time. But you still dont listen to some of the more knowledgable posters who have been here for a long time who know what they're talking about. I'm not including myself in there

Bottom line, this is not your Xbox, where you push a button and expect something to happen exactly how it should - just cause Wade Redden is highly paid, doesnt mean he has to outscore everyone making less money than him. Just cause we have a high payroll, doesn't mean we should expect a parade in June. Thats the kind of awfulness we get around here.


So do you try to sound so condescending in every post you make? i have noticed this in just about every post you make, you have to add a little smart ass comment.

tell me are you like that face to face? i hope not.

You make it sound like if someone hasnt been on this board for as long as others they arent as knowlegeable which is ********, everyone on this board has an opinion not all agree but i respect everyone's opinion here thats why i come here so often.

I just dont see the need for the little sarcastic remarks you make in the majority of your posts.


Last edited by z1co80: 12-06-2008 at 12:46 AM.
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Old
12-06-2008, 12:44 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Yet in every interview they say the opposite about their play - we still need to get better cause Hank can't bail us out every game.
But they haven't done anything to follow up on that.

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